Strategic Help required!
 

OK. heres the situation.

I control six systems, two of which have planets in them. I have one trinary system I'm hoping to develop, and 3 asteroid systems.

I have no friends in the galaxy, but the two guys I met are at war with each other.
Unfortunately, I have LCs, while everybody else has Dreadnaughts running around in packs of 9+.

Technology:
16k research points available.

-shields level two,
-armor 3,
-planet util is 3 turns from lvl 6,
-weapon destroyers lvl 5.
-DUC lvl 5
-plague bomb 1
-religious 3
-PD 5
-mines & explosives 3
-troops 1
-A Mil Sci 3 (with all ships & fleets in training)
-Base con 2
-ship con 4
-resupply 2
-rock colonies only

Enemy tech:
-Max shields
-Dreadnaught hulls
-Max missiles for Jreanar
-Max crystal (shard Cannon/ High energy magnifier) for Phong.

Map:
I'm in the rightmost corner. Phong are above & to the left, Jreanar are south.
-My planet systems are horizontal in the center of my empire, and there are two dead systems above & below them.
-Two warp points from phong space into my home system on the left, with 540 & 430 mines on them, adding 5 per turn to both.
-Two warp points from phong to the north, with 250 mines each. Adding 14 mines every 5 turns to each.
-one warp point two systems to the south, with 420 mines & a picket ship to stop sweepers. Adding 60 mines every 4 turns.

The phong just declared war & sent 1/5th of their fleet into my home system. That's why the one minefield is depleted by 100 mines

Military:
Maintenance: 7%!
-5 boarding party II escorts.
-one DUC frigate
-7 DUC destroyers.
-6 minelayer destroyers
-7 DUC/Tachyon Light Cruisers.
-2 Repair/Resupply LCs
-4 fully trained (+20%) fleets, two just starting training (+3%), 50% of my ships are just starting training too (the other 50% are done).
In a simulator test, the Phong DN can wipe out one of my LCs each battle turn.
My Battle station design can defeat one phong DN, but is crippled in the process.

How do I survive this?
I'm thinking of getting planet util up to 7, and converting all my moons & planets, but I'm not sure if I can Last long enough. If I get planet creation tech, I'll have two more systems full of planets.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 22 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 24 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

You're in trouble.

If I were you I would continue to add mines to all my warp points - buy some time.

Convert your planets - build whatever you can! Research point defense; ship construction - build a few point defense cruisers to provide protection to your fleet...

Hope that they continue to attack each other and weaken themselves, until you can challenge them...

Good luck.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I've had the minelayers on repeat orders for the Last decade.

PD is at max tech.

Are you suggesting ship construction or planet util? Its pretty much down to one or the other, not both.


And does anybody know how to counter the phong's Shard Cannon & high-energy magnifier?

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

DUDE!

That sounds like FUN!

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

The only advise I can give is build a ship with a gavatational condensor and seal off your empire from everyone else. After you build up you empire and spacy, you can open new points deep into the enemy territory and send in large strike fleets. Thats the strategy I ussually use.

------------------
Rules? What Rules?

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only advise I can give is build a ship with a gavatational condensor and seal off your empire from everyone else. After you build up you empire and spacy, you can open new points deep into the enemy territory and send in large strike fleets. Thats the strategy I ussually use.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, besides being unfair to the AI, I would need to research that tech, and all I have is astrophsysics 1.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>DUDE!
That sounds like FUN!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've posted the savegame, but it requires Pirates&Nomads V1.3 or higher to work.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

You could always try to become a protectorate or subjecate empire. The only thing that will help you is time and you can't research that.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

It'll take 2 years for me to get the religious talisman & ECM. Arming my ships with the Tachyon cannon Vs I have, could give me a victory.

Or, I could get ship con/ shields, or maybe just swarm with LCs & tachyon cannon.

Or, I could get atmosphere converters in 2.5 years & upgrade all my planets.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 22 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

If you have 4-5 years to build atmospheric converters and facilities you probably have time to get 1-2 levels of ship and some better weapons tech and kick a**. A ton of Kamikazi escorts probably wouldn't hurt.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Hehe. I have no idea how much time I have left. The phong & jreanar keep throwing DNs at my minefields, but when they do send the minesweepers, 5 of them will defeat my mines (at 105 lost per sweeper)

What I need is a suggestion on how to proceed. Will the AI send the minesweepers quickly, or what? Which of my options gives me the most effect?
Both the jreanar & phong have seen my system, so they could have marked the sector as mined. They have yet to attack my main system's WPs with sweepers, though.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Close the Warp points.... it seems to be your only hope.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Sorry, I can't use wormhole manip. Personal AI friendly policy. There's gotta be another solution.

Which of the things I mentioned below do you think will work best?

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Try mining around, not in, the WP and hope they hit them. Also pop through the WP and mine their side, if possible. Layer mines all over the place and make their fleet take damage just moving through your system. They might not have enough minesweepers to keep a clear path. Also, attack their minesweepers if you get a chance.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Interesting situation, should be quite a challenge. I forsee many hours in front of a monitor scheming the downfall of the AIs, when you should be sleeping http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

You say that you have max PDC tech... I would say do this:

Get atmosphere converters and convert your planets, and use extra space for research facilities unless it's a real good value (for me, over 130%) in something.

Make a strike fleet consisting of your DUC/Tachyon LCs and a new design with all PDCs. Try to design it so it can easily be retrofitted to the DUC/Tachyon LC, and vice versa, a very fast way to get Legendary Fleets/Ships.

Take on the Jreanar, see if you can't capture a few of those dreadnaughts with your boarding escorts (check in sim first). If you can get just a few, it would be a real boost to your research, and would give you just that much more room to maneuver.

Keep on mining the warps leading to the Phong, step it up if you can.

Pray. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

For the question of countering Crystalline weapons, only effective method I know is lots and lots of shields. Those aren't exactly the most damaging weapons, they are only dangerous when the shields are gone.

And about the AI using minesweepers and their speed in deployment... Well, I've never really been on that side of the minefield http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif If the AI holds true to the form I've seen in it before, you'll only see lone minesweepers come through, not a group. How fast they will come is what I don't know, which is why I say step up mine production if you can.

I'll take a look at the savegame once I get the data files, see if I can't think of anything else.

And how's the Intel of all sides?

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Looks kinda simple to me.

Phong are real danger, but Jraenar with missiles are weak. Few PD cruisers can bring you the victory.

Research Meson BLasters. Although not as powerful as APB, they provide fine fire, while cheap in both research and construction.

I will download the zip, and try to counter the ships with your technology. If i can, i will post the designs here.

And remember, LCs are good in swarms. DNs are slow. Use this against them

Try fighters. They are powerful indeed.

Research cloaking/stealth armor and sneak to the other side of mined warp-points. If you see a minesweeper coming, try to intercept.

------------------
Emperor Klis't of the Taera Republic.
Proud member of the League of Empires.
E-Mail -
Ora Planet - Taera Republic - League of Empires

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

the link for ZIP is broken http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

------------------
Emperor Klis't of the Taera Republic.
Proud member of the League of Empires.
E-Mail -
Ora Planet - Taera Republic - League of Empires

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Ok, if you're not going to use stellar manip... then add sats/bases to the mined WP's, hopefully they'll take out the minesweepers.

Or for a wild tactic, if you have researched intelligene so that you can do crew insureection, scrap all research facilites and build intel... start doing crew insurrection (analyze some of their ships to "continue researching"), and cause some massive havoc... blockade as many systems as possible so they run out of resouces and have to scrap their navy (do Steal resources too... infact once you might be able to replace some mines/farms/extractors with intel if you can steal enough resources!).


[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 23 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

If you can manage to get a lone ship into enemy space, send a frigate / escort and hide in a storm sector. Drop a LR-scanner satellite if you don't want to leave a whole ship in there (or if the AI sees you go in and comes in after you.)

Once you have a watchful eye on the enemy use the "ship bomb" intel project to target his minesweepers. He might have counter intel running but keep plugging away - up your intel production and run as many identical projects as you can complete in one turn. You might yet stand a chance=-)

------------------
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

If you have ftrs, build and put on worm holes
to supplement your mines. Also if you have the tech, build Ship with ship yard tech, build 3-4 small BS on worm hole with the ftrs and mines. I found this to be effective
but if he has lots of mine sweeping, you need the ftrs and BS's, the mines won't do you any good. You might even put a small defensive fleet at the same worm hole. Use ftrs in Groups with each different type. Example, 15 with beam weapon, 15 with torp's
for total of group of 30 or more, that way you have a 1-2 punch every other turn and 1 punch each turn with each group.

just some ideas mac

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Well, I'm currently spending 102% of my mineral income, most of it on mine construction.
My nature shrine III's will put me back in the black within 3 turns, though.
I don't have fighters yet (see the 1st post for an overview of everything)
I'm quite sure sats would be wiped out. The enemy has massive shielding, and powerful weapons.

The Jreanar use CSM/PlasM but have an APB XII also. The single Heavy-mount APB is enough to rip through my LCs shields and destroy most of it's armor in one shot http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

Did I mention that I have +18% attack & defence racial traits?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And how's the Intel of all sides?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have 2.7k I'm currently storing intel points in defence, so I'm not getting hurt by enemy intel.
Jreanar: 56k intel (2nd place overall)
Phong: 86k intel (3rd place overall)
Krill: 25k intel (1st place overall) 10x my score!

All I've met is Phong & krill and some little guy who refused to surrender until the plague had wasted his homeworld to 300M.

The phong & Jreanar are really pounding on each other http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

your post stated your BS can take out l Dn but is crippled. How big is the BS, Maybe instead of 1,try like i said in eariler post, put 3-4 BS's on your wormholes in conjunction with mines . Another idea, make some of your LC's all shields & armor, other LC's w/missles and put behind them. If enemy has only Beam weapons they could reach your shield LC's but your missle ships should be able to range on them and your shield & armor LC's strong enough to take the hits at least until your missles start doing damage. Have you tried mining his side of the worm hole? Maybe send in cloaked minelayers and mine his side as well. If he has CV's try and steal some and put the ftrs on your wormholes then retrofit the CV's into captial warships. Interesting

Another idea, take your smallest warship, make into kamikazes, fill with as many warheads as possible. build a good number, then while he is shooting at your LC's and missles, you KK's should be able to ram and hopefully damage or destroy a good portion.

just some ideas Mac

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 23 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Are Techyon Projection Cannons that worthless, or has nobody noticed I have max tech in weapon-destroying weapons. Any good strategies I could use with those?

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I never use Tachyon weapons as a main weapon. The problem with the Tachyon weapons is their short range. You have to stay close to be effective and in your situation close is not where you want to be.
I would try to take advantage of the situation the best possible way. I find if I am seriously out gunned then I feel am better off with lots a targets that do lesser amounts of damage. If the DN can only target 3 ships per turn have 15 small units attack it. At least you will get 4-5 turns of fire in. It may seem stupid to attack with escorts but if you don't have fighters then they are your best alternative.
From your post I don't think you have shield depleters but if you do use them with your capture ships. Even if you don't analyize any captured ships you will have some good ships to defend with.
You have a tough problem, you are seriously out teched. You need all the time you can get to even things out.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Well, they are range 4, and if I research the Talisman, I'll go from 10% chance @ range 1 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/blush.gif to 100% chance @ range 4.

I'm thinking that with the tachyons & talisman, I might take out all the weapons on a DN with 2 LCs at max range, and only end up taking one volley of enemy fire. I could then capture the ship with a few normal weapons, for ship, shield, engine, armor, ECM, ComSen, etc.


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

It may work provided you survive long enough to take out most of their weapons. APB XII at range 4, (heavy mount?), pack a pretty good punch.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Well, one LC getting hit by one HM-APB-XII will lose shields & armor, but internals survive.
I do have a pair of repair ships (with resupply pods on 'em)

If I found a solo Jreanar DN, I could jump him with 2LCs and a Repair ship.
The Jreanar have only one APB per ship (rest missiles) and I've got decent PD.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

SJ,
This will probably work in tactical IF there is only 1 DN.
Build 10-15 kamakize escorts and 1-2 capture escorts.
Attack the DN with the kamikazis, you will probably lose 5 - 10 of them in closing the range. 5 kamikazis with cobalt warhead III (1500 damage points) should take down all the shields. Then capture it and use it as a defender in the WP until you can capture another for analysis. The AI should target the kamikzis because the capture ship doesn't have a weapon.
Don't know if it will work in strategic but it may.
If you can capture enough of them you may have max shields and APB's in only a few years!

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 23 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I'd rather not go kamikaze. And I don't have the funds to be (re)building ships like that. If I took the Cobalts off & used Tachyons, I could disable the weapons & have lots of time to cut away at the shields, then capture.

Not sure if I'm gonna absolutely require the talisman to pull it off...

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

If you can capture just 1-2 for defending the WP you should be ok. Sounds like there is a lot of free, expensive research available on those ships, if you can just grab the first one!

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Well, with a simulator test, I realized the Jreanar have two HM-APB-XIIs (and 9 CSMs) on their newest DNs.
With 6 TPC Vs on 2 LCs, I managed to take out half his weapons over 2 volleys of tachyons at 50% accuracy (1 range).

I reduced my shielding & armor to fit 3TPC and a DUC on, so the first hit takes out my shields the second takes out half my armor. Hits 3 takes out armor & #4 does some internal damage.

I'm gonna have to Strike a single DN with at least a third of my LCs converted to 3TPC/1DUC/low defence.

I may be able to use my Frigates as PD support & DUCs for shield draining, and give my LCs more defence or more TPCs.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

That's strange, it's giving me an error when I try opening the file.
(Yes, I'm using the correct Version)
Same, as what the others are describing in the other thread.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I guess you neen P&N V1.4, which will be posted in "a pirates life" in 5 minutes.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Include some smaller ships in your attack to give them more targets to shoot at. Since they are going to knock out 1 LC per turn make some cheap gunboats to draw fire, forget the armor and shields on them. 1-2 PD frigates will neutralize the missiles. Something has to get through!
You really need to capture one, if only for defense.
You got a hell of a fight going, hope you figure out a winning strategy!

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

If I keep the ships tightly packed, my PDCs should be able to handle the missiles, And I can add the PDL on my repair ship, or a dedicated PDL ship for a safety margin.

I still need shields so my ships don't get wiped out. 20kT defence lets me take absorb 2 HM-APB-XII. Perhaps a hardened ship that's one gun and lotsa shields will distract the fire.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I agree with the folks who suggest using fighters. When the AI is way ahead of you in technology, those Mine Sweeper V DN's will devastate your mine fields. But if you had 400 small fighters equipped with the Small DUC III, the AI would never get a ship through.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I agree with the folks who suggest using fighters. When the AI is way ahead of you in technology, those Mine Sweeper V DN's will devastate your mine fields. But if you had 400 small fighters equipped with the Small DUC III, the AI would never get a ship through.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm... I think the first fighter I'll create are gonna be TachyonPC fighters. Once the enemy ship is disarmed, I can capture them. DUC fighters sound good for when I've stolen the tech already.

It looks like 3 Tachyon Runners (with 70kT of defence) can disable a DN at 50% accuracy(the enemy split his fire & all 3 ships' shields held at 10% http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif). I'll just have to have some backup ships that can drop the shields and Cap.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Too bad your main weapon targets their weapons. You will have to analyize it because you won't be able to use it for defense http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I don't mind researching my own (weapon) techs. I've got DUC V already, and that's good enough for me. (As long as I have equivalent shield, armor, sensors, hulls etc.)

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 24 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

After more simming, It looks like I have to also contend with fairly heavy regeneration on the 2k shields of the DN, plus they have a Self-destruct. And the 3 crew quarters can fight off my Boarding Parties II, so I have to kill one of those too.

This just gets worse and worse.

I could disable one of the DNs with 3LCs & take only armor damage.
But, to capture them, I also need at least 10 DUC capture ES/FG ships pounding away till the end of combat.

This one tactical operation is going to require every ship I own.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 24 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

have you tried using LC's for capture instead of ES/FG'? Put shields on them and with the extra capture units you might not need as many as with es/fg's

just some ideas mac

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Aren't you getting any help from your mines? I usually see the AI send in minesweepers and combat ships to the same spot in the same turn but rarely in the same group? Maybe you will get lucky and a mine or two will take down some shields/crew quarters<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hehe http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Mines don't usually cripple a ship when you've got 500 mines per sector http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I just get a message every two turns "9 Phong ships have been destroyed"
The enemy minesweepers will kill 105 mines each when they actually arrive.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>have you tried using LC's for capture instead of ES/FG'? Put shields on them and with the extra capture units you might not need as many as with es/fg's<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The reason I need so many ES/FGs is cause the enemy DN has a terribly strong shield, and my accuracy at range 1 is 50%. I need that many ships just to carry DUCs so I can breach his shielding and try to kill the Self-destruct before the combat ends.
The reason why I dont plan to use LC's in that role is cause I don't have many (see first post) but I've got lots of ES/FGs sitting around from the beginning of the game. (And I don't have funds to scrap and rebuild - 102% of my minerals go to maint & mine building)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BTW are you fighting tactical or strategic? If you are fighting strategic, have you tried setting your tachyon ships to "point blank range"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tactical all the way. I just love flying my ships around and changing tactics & trying to cover a crippled ship's retreat & stuff http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 24 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Do they always send 9 ships through? If so you could adjust the amount of mines so that maybe 1 or 2 will be crippled enough for you to easily capture. Don't try to kill them all http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
In my current game I've gotten quite a few Cue Cappa BB's with Alligience Converters this way. The mines took out their engines and shields, all their weapons remained intact for some reason. I just went in and captured them, cost me a few small capture ships in closing but I now have a small Psychic battlegroup without the ability.

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Problem is, they come at me so often that I'm having trouble holding the minefields up right now. When the fifth minesweeper comes through, I'll be finished.

I can't take the risk of detting my minefields...
Oh, but I could make a new minefield just in front of my existing ones to cripple somebody. I like it!

Hey, I was just looking at the scores, and the top 4 players have 100k score, while the bottom three (living) players all have 10k-20k score. The rich empires are all infighting for more territory, while me and the little guys just try to hold on to what we've got. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 24 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

If you could figure out where they would go once they got through the WP you could leave a trail of mines in their path. You might have crippled DN's all over the place http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

The WP mines are pretty much my Last line of defence http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I do have a few mines ni orbit of each planet, but they won't Last long. My ships are helpless right now.
Once I get the talisman, and my fleets get trained up to 20% (modded to be 1% per turn), then I might be able to dodge the occasional shot, while staying at range http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I've set 2 mines (1200 damage total) just outside where the phong like to come in. Hopefully it won't attract a minesweeper, but I should be able to cripple some ships now. As long as they don't send a fleet over 3 ships in size, I should be able to handle the uncrippled ship with my fleet. (consisting of my entire military force except the training ESs) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Do you ever use a single escort in a fleet stationed over a training facil?
I've got 5 ES in their own "Training Fleet X", and then I can switch them with warships. I get a trained fleet of warships instantly & my ES starts a new fleet to train http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

I train fleets that way a lot, build my fleet training the same place and the shipyard and begin training immediately. If you have 5 ships why not create 5 fleets and get them all up to max. Then you don't have to wait as long.
Also havuig minefields all over the place may cause his minesweepers to not be as effective or allow them to be exposed to attack. They may be chasing non existant fields.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 24 April 2001).]

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you have 5 ships why not create 5 fleets and get them all up to max. Then you don't have to wait as long.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I though I just said that???

I have "training fleet A" through "training fleet E", in orbit of "Starfleet Academy"

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

Misunderstood, thought you meant you had 5 ships in one fleet. Sorry

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

NP

Re: Strategic Help required!
 

what does he have in the systems touching yours? Colony wise?. Could you sneak a clocked ship or small fleet in and trash his planets or refueling depots in that system. I know you said you have 2 empty ones but what about where he keeps cming thru. Anyway you could mine both sides of wormholes. This way he could get some thru the one side and hopefully some would be damaged where you could capture them on the other side. In either case, he would have to stop for the fields before he entered into your system giving you warning or chance to attack him at the wormhole or build BS on wormholes to back up mines. Can you increase your production in anyway?

just some ideas mac