OT: Gas Prices
 

A simple little poll to see what you think.

Please ONLY U.S. Members only.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Bah! US members only...

Gas prices are hurting everyone, not just Americans!

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

I haven't voted anywhere, but..... Are the oil companies ripping us off? A wholehearted YES. YES they DO.

Just think - when did you last hear about an oil refinery being built? The global oil companies are deliberately keeping oil production and refining low, to keep the price high. In the last few decades there have been no oil refineries that started production, only those who have stopped producing; remember, after Katrina, the oil companies warning us about how their loss of a few refineries would hit oil prices because of the lessened capacity? If anything, Katrina benefited the oil companies; they could now sell less oil for more ca$h, making a better profit than when those refineries were still running. The loss of a few refineries hurting the oil companies? Bah! It was only beneficial to them!

Oil companies are ripping us off, and have been doing so for decades.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Right now, because of the mid term elections, I wanted to keep the poll a U.S. member only.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Just for reference, gas currently costs about $6.00 per gallon where I live.

What is your complaint about US gas prices exactly?

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Don't get me wrong, I hate the high gas prices as much as the next guy and Hawaii is (or was last week) the state with the highest gas prices.

But consider this: check out the prices of other liquids you use in every day life and convert to price per gallon and you might be surprised. Also consider what it takes to make one gallon of that liquid.

milk
juice
liquid soap
soda
sports drink
and the one that makes me laugh: bottled water.

Gasoline couldn't cost less per gallon than bottled water, could it???? Water is free!!! and perfectly fine out of any tap. Go figure.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Ok, I voted:
1) Maybe. While true that there has been zero increased refining capacity since... I think around 1970... it is also true that the cost of a barrel of crude oil is hovering close to $80 right now; for comparison, I remember that precisely 5 years ago, the same barrel of crude oil cost between $15 and $20. Only reason I remember this is that there are some small oil producers in the town my parents live in, and to operate the small wells, $20 was considered the break-even point. Also, rather than assume a vast conspiracy to make all of us pay more by reducing capacity of refineries, consider that it costs a lot to build and open a refinery; nobody will want it close to where they live and/or work; environmental regulations are so strict for new industrial buildings that it is very difficult to make new refineries; and, all the oil companies know that sometime in the near future, there will be so little oil left, which will be hard to get at, and will cost so much, that it does not justify the investment in more refineries.

2) Other. I don't own a car at school, so it does no impact me directly. But, price of gas is strongly correlated to price of transport, so I indirectly feel the costs via that.

3) Maybe. Democrats would probably propose to mandate via law a minimum MPG for (road) vehicles, to be phased in over a period of X years; Republicans would probably propose more tax cuts. I don't think either will sway the middle 60% of the US, since they know that neither proposal stands any chance of passing at this point.

4) $2.50-$3.00. Gas prices 5 years ago: $1.00/gallon, crude prices 5 years ago: $20/barrel. Gas prices now: $2.75/gallon (in Los Angeles), crude prices now: $71. If you scale it up, gas prices should actually be higher than $3, but part of the cost is overhead, so about in the $2.50-$3.00 range is right.

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Yet the head of Exxon just retired with a multi-million dollar severance package.

Read it here .

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Not to mention oil companies are generating THE highest profit margins in human history right now. Not some, most, or highest in recent years. THE HIGHEST.


I remember when gas was 0.75 cents a gallon and I'm not even 30. Now I'm paying 4 times that so my car and be something more than an expensive driveway ornament.

Part of this is inflation, the other part, a much larger part, is greed. The problem is the corrupt government in many national captials are slaves to big oil. I'd like to see a couple of politicians find their you know what and stand up to them.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

And how much of that is taxes?

Also, we have states bigger than your entire *country*. Things are a liiiitle bit more spread out here, which leads to longer drives.

I'm moving cross country later this year, and the resulting drive is 1000 miles. You driving that far would probably take you all the way to Portugal, going through several other countries..

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Pheonix, distance is not a factor in oil prices. If I remember right, Europe is getting much of thier oil out of former soviet bloc countries and I wouldn't be surprised there is some bad blood there.

Wasn't there a thing in the news a few months ago with Russia and Ukraine squabbling over oil access and that was threatening to raise oil prices in europe as a whole?

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

No, it isn't. It is a factor in how much gas prices hurt, though.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

I too am not sure what American's are complaining about. Currently, where I live, we're paying approx. $1.15/liter!. Taking into account the difference between Canadian and American dollars and converting liters to gallons, we in Canada are paying the equivalent of $3.83/gallon!

According to Will, you're only paying about $2.75 per gallon. We're paying over a dollar more per gallon than you are, and up here in Canada the average distance a person has to travel per year is much farther than the average American...the country is larger and less populous, equalling greater travel distances, on average. Not to mention rural people like me, who have much much farther distances to travel of average...

I'd say you have it pretty easy.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

While it seems outrageous to us "common people", multi-million dollar severance packages, and even multi-million dollar salaries, are par for the course in Corporate USA. Top executives are valuable to companies based on business experience and connections with other top executives; the salaries remain so high because if the companies don't pay the outrageous sums, the executives go to other companies that WILL pay. Similarly, severance packages are high amounts because it is very bad business to burn bridges. The person leaving the company will still have lots of contacts throughout the corporate world, and can influence those contacts. It's best to spend what amounts to pocket change (for the corporation) to the departing executive, to keep them happy and to have them not complaining loudly to everyone s/he knows about the company.

Not saying I think it's a good thing, just saying it's not limited to oil companies, and there is an economic reason for it.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

"What about our stockholders, Bob? Who's looking out for them?"

- From "The Incredibles"

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

We so not live where you live. And your cost per gallon of gas is mostly tax and not Oil Company Greed.

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I live near Rollo it seems..
As for USA maybe you shouldn't have Oil Company executives as Government heads ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Well said.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Are the oil companies sticking it to us? Sure they are.

Should the government do something about it? No, its called free enterprise. You have the option to not pay that outrageous price for gas. Of course, if you exercise that choice then you may also be choosing to not work and by extension, not eat, but you do have that choice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously, I don't feel that it is the government's place to step in and do something about high prices. History has shown that whenever the price of a product goes higher than the market will bear people will start to find alternatives.

Now, having said all that, I do believe that the oil lobby uses our government to squash any alternatives that come along. My solution, ban all lobbying of Congress. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

The anti-trust laws were made for a reason.

When a company successfully kills all large competitors, especially in a fairly necessary industry (fuel, building materials, food, et cetera), it can do things that can't be done otherwise.

A small company underselling you? No problem; they're still small, with a limited distribution area. Sell at a loss in that area until your opponent goes under, then raise prices back up to wherever you feel like it. Revenues from elsewhere will cover the shortfall, which will be fairly short-term, and in return, you maintain an effective monopoly.

Getting tired of doing the above every three years? Have a chat with all your suppliers / business customers, and arrange for exclusive contracts. They don't sell to / buy from anyone else. Your currently small competition can't sell to your customers and can't buy supplies. Shortly thereafter, they go under - no reaction required.

Want to be un-boycottable? No problem. Either of the above pretty much eliminates all competition; they don't buy from you, they go without. Try making a skyscraper without steel or concrete. Workers striking? Pity most of their skills aren't useful anywhere else. They're stuck with whatever wages you say. Quality sucks? Long as you can avoid lawsuits over the quality of your materials (e.g., it's not up to the specs you said it was, causing the bridge to fall - simple fix, if you're the only business; get it in writing that they won't hold you accountable for such things), they can't do a thing about it, as there's nowhere else to turn.

And of course, once you've integrated horizontally (all of that stage of the business - refining ore into steel, say) you can integrate vertically quite easily (for the previous example, that would be mining the ore, fabricating the beams, et cetera) and eliminate competition at other layers simply by not buying from them / selling to them at much higher prices.

THESE HAPPENED. That's why there's laws that supposedly stop such tactics in place in the US. They don't always seem to be enforced (RIAA and TicketMaster come to mind), but they're in place. Slight trouble with Big Oil, though, it's international. Federal law can't control what they do on the other side of the pond, and having the UN take such steps would be ... too scary.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Gas companies are ripping US customers off, using the excuses of current events (Gulf war, hurricanes) to raise prices even though it just means billions of profit for them.

Gas costs $6.00 outside the US because the governments are less supportive of mass consumption of fuel (fewer subsidies, more tax).

More important though is global warming and destruction caused by human carbon emissions. Humans are killing the planet, essentially because we are selfish short-sighted morons, and that's way more important than "prices at the pump", whatever pleasure some people have from commuting to a city job as the only passenger in a ridiculously enormous truck or SUV, and so on. As more and more countries (or just China, all by itself) motorize on the American model, good luck for the planet's ecology.

PvK

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

That is, if you believe all the media sensationalism about global warming...personally I've taken a look at the 'evidence' and have found it lacking. I believe it's part of a natural cycle, perhaps slightly (though not significantly on a geological timescale) accelerated by mankind's actions. Greenhouse gases rise, then they natually fall, resulting in a natural ice age. Greenhouse gases rise, raising temps. out of ice age, until greenhouse gas level rise too much, plunging into an ice age...etc etc ad nauseum

But that's a subject for another thread...

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

No, media is late to the game. I've been listenning to the scientists who have been saying this for decades, and who are saying it louder and louder as things get worse and worse. Yes there have been ice age cycles in the past, but we are also accelerating things a lot. Greenhouse gasses from life are a cyclical system, but humans are defossilizing huge amounts of carbon and dumping it into the atmosphere, which is not part of the cycle except when a major asteroid has hit the planet and has caused mass extinctions. Only this time, we're making our own. I am really worried about what has been said recently about the effects of ocean warming, and the general health of the oceans, and of birds and other animals, and eventually us (though we're the only ones who may deserve to be extinct...).

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

the problem is, there is not a free market. The oil company is protected by the government. Just try and start a new oil company. We as consumers are captive to the monopoly that is the oil industry.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

There is evidence pointing to ocean levels that were 6 meters higher than today's levels. This evidence includes oceanic wear on rocks far above today's high-tide levels on cliffs in Alaska, and old coral reefs that are high and dry above current sea levels.

This shows ocean levels have been much higher in the past and thus the average worldwide temperature must have been much higher. Life adapted, or died out. That's life for you. Attempting to stop climate change is a futile battle, it will happen whether or not you want it to. The rate can be altered, but not forever.

Like I mentioned before, when the Earth heats too much we plunge into another ice age. The Earth is a self-stabilizing system, it will adapt. Perhaps scientists have not surmised the mechanism yet, but it has historically happened, and there's no real reason to believe it will not happen again.

I'm not saying we need another ice age! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Though actually, I would like it. I love winter! Maybe you southern people would learn what it's like living in the cold...Floridians would learn 20C isn't cold enough to turn the furnace on!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Sure, there are feedback mechanisms.
But its not a good idea to turn the furnace on when its already hot out.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

not all of global warming is because of the US and our gas guzzeling wasteful way of erogant living. What about volcano eruptions, forest fires, natural warming trends, tbe changes in the megnetic poles, etc. Don't blame it all on the US.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Its not about blame, its about fixing things.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

I am all for doing my part. I am a big conservationist myself and have always gone out of my way to use less.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

And I'm sure that a 1st year university student (no offence intended) can really interpret the evidence better than the large percentage of professional scientists who do this for a living. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

No offense taken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif However, I should correct you; I'm no longer in university. I was forced to leave due to some...rather unpleasant and severe personal issues. I think I still have a slightly better than average knowledge of science though, I try to keep learning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now for the debate! Everyone knows that data can be twisted to suit the agenda or personal beliefs of whoever is analyzing it. As the saying goes "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I would have to question these scientists who are doing the analyzing of the data. After all, preconceived notions will influence people, no matter how hard you strive to keep bias out of science, at some point with climatology personal analysis comes into it. Where one scientist may see one thing, another will see something totally different.

Just think that everyone "knew" 500 years ago that the Earth was flat, just like everyone today "knows" that global warming is a fact...even though there is a lot that we don't understand about the intricacies of the way the world works. Granted, the above analogy has deep flaws, but pervasive myths have a way of self-perpetuating themselves. If someone is raised being told that global warming is a fact, they will believe it. They will, perhaps, see it where it does not exist.

There are also groups of scientists (who aren't merely know-it-all 19 year-olds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif) who do study this for a living, who do not agree with the theory of global warming. Granted they are in the minority right now, but to make another, perhaps more apt analogy.

In cosmology, string theory was first proposed about 30 years ago, if memory serves. The theory was derided by the vast majority of cosmologists, astrophysicists and astronomers. Today it is one of the leading theories. Just because a theory does not have much support in the scientific community, does not mean it is invalid. The same could apply in this situation.

Whew...didn't realize I could be so long-winded. Now please, show me the error of my ways and point out the flaws in my logic. I always enjoy learning something new! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif BTW, not being sarcastic, I really do want to see if holes can be poked in my logic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Natural causes of global warming is only a small percentage of the problem - and one that we can't really do much about. What we can do something about is cleaning up the way we live.

The problem is money, however. To clean up the world would most likely bankrupt every nation in the world five times over.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Yes, I think the oil companies are ripping us off and doing it because they can.

I vote for archologies (at least IIRC that's what they're called). There are places currently that are trying them small scale and they are meeting with mixed results.

Today, I drive to work and back 35 miles round trip and burn approx 2 1/2 gal gasoline to do it. 200 years ago I would have climbed down my stairs from my upstairs living quarters to my street level shop.

The new(!?) idea is to go back to these community environments where you can do all your daily tasks (work, shop, etc.) without having to drive a vehicle. What is an archology except one of these communities on steroids.

I've seen recent Discovery Channel (and other) shows on floating cities, gigantic city skyscrapers and other such constructs. Didn't notice a car road in any of them. And I don't think there are too many that would disagree that if we eliminated automobiles, gas would be cheaper and the earth would be a little cooler. No we would not stop any normal climactic changes, but we would induce them less.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

All it'd take is one or two large volcanic eruptions to emit gigatons of greenhouse gases, and make any human effort to stop greenhouse gas emissions futile.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Ya, or an asteroid strike. So, you're saying, we may as well cause cataclysms ourselves?

Y'know, that SUV blocking my view would have flown off the bridge if the driver had a natural stroke or heart attack, so I may as well have shoved them off the bridge. Falling to its death was a natural process which I just helped along, and I profitted from it, so it's all good, right?

PvK

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Nope. I think we should do what we can to keep emissions low, within reason.

However, it won't take much for nature to undo anything mankind tries to do (as has been shown multiple times in the past). If something like Krakatoa erupts again...well that'd put a chunk of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, many of them worse than just CO2 (water vapor for one is worse than CO2 if I recall correctly, methane as well for retaining heat).

Comparing an erupting volcano to pushing a person of a bridge...well that's just ludicrous.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

In regurds to gas/oil prices, you guys are leaving out the speculators and hedges funds, that have a intrest in driving up prices for their own needs.

gloabal warming, volcues do spew a lot of gases,b ut the also seend large quanties of ash into the upper atmaosphere causeing temps to actually drop. Mt pinatoba (sp) causes a slight drop for around a year.
that also applie to all exaust emissions, they contain particulate matter that has the same effect. so both the burining of oil has been sending both componets into the atmosphere. one tends to cause heating the other cooling.
funny thing particulate emmissions from us and europe are dropping, but are rising in china and india. cleaning up the the particulate emmisions are easy, the co2...........

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

People in the US started buying those huge SUV's because gas was affordable and the big SUV's were something that the Jones had so they had to have em.

I hate huge cars, SUV's, and most huge trucks. I don't see a purpose to them if your not using them to hull things and or huge amounts of people.

Now Gas prices have spiked and the poor are being priced right off the road. There are calls by some to raise the gas tax in order to "punish" SUV drivers. To me that is just utterly [censored] silly. The only ones who would be hurt by a $3.00 gas tax would be people like me who can barely aford the current price of gas. Hell I am about $0.50 per gallon away from being permentaly forced off the road. And I am not alone.

Higher gas prices serve only to make the roads less congested for the rich, the very people who can aford higher prices and taxes. The people who buy and drive those huge mother [censored] SUV's in the first place.

Ya, lets punish them by raising the price of gas to the point where only they can aford to drive. Ya, what a real incentive for them to stop driving those gas guzzling SUV's, price the poor and lower income right off the road and presto... no more congestion. Ya, bang on idea there guys.

Less drives, as we all know the ratio, 80% of Americans are at the poverty level or within a pay check of it, so by raising the gas prices to $4.00 and higher per gallon, most of us will be priced right off the road. Less drivers means less congestion. Not nessassarly less polution mind you, as those who can aford to buy those huge SUV's, will still be out their driving them, but with far less traffic.

But hey, this is progress in a free market so who am I to *****.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Brazil had the right idea back in the 80's. Now they are about a year away from telling OPEC and the Oil companies to piss off. If they can make sugar based fuel work with flex fuel cars, then why in the hell can't we?

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Wouldn't it be nice to have prices much higher, but have your first X liters subsidized and cheap?

You should add something like this to your plan in the ruler of the world thread.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

We don't have anything here like "flex fuel cars" because the car manufacturers won't bring them here. There is no market for them. People here like to drive their gas guzzling SUVs. Those that have posted here, are the minority. I would say about 75 to 80% of those I have talked to want to get an SUV. They don't care about the gas prices or the environment. But then again most Americans are complete morons (see last presidential election). And yes I am a citizen of the US, born and raised. And because the government has shown that our voices don't matter, no one is willing to try to change anything.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Because you precious mr. president is having sex with the oil/gas industry ?

btw. Anyone heard about the project in sweden ? They are doing some crop/biomass thingy and are planning to be fully indepedent of standart oil until 2020.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Is that like Canadian humor or something? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

US car manufactures do manufacture flex fuel cars, GM for one. They just don't sell them here because like you said, there is no market for them here....... Bush is an oil man thats for sure, he is also crippeling pro big business, as many presidents have been, and there is simply too much money coming from the oil lobby to stand against them. SO yes, lobby reform is also a must.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Flex fuel sucks. Takes too much energy to produce the ethanol. And where does that energy come from? Fossil fuels.

Biodiesel, man. Biodiesel. A stock diesel can run it. A few modifications help it last longer. And, you're recycling, using waste from restaurants, using vegetable and other oils that were already produced and used for another purpose.

I don't care that oil's up to 70 bucks. The oil companies can afford to lower gas prices, but they've discovered we sheep will tolerate higher prices. It's as much our fault as theirs.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Nuclear power. I was reading about a 'new' type of reactor that will actually utilize the waste materials from conventional nuclear reactors, and would also be much more efficient. The waste generated would still be radioactive and thus toxic, but the half life is something like 100 or 150 years rather than the current 10,000 or so.

But with general public opinion being extremely anti-nuclear power, any chance of the newer, better reactors being built isn't likely. Me, I'm all for nuclear reactors...just not in my backyard! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Nuclear is the way to go though. That'll cut dependence on oil by a lot, and also make coal-burning electricity plants (of which the US has a LOT) obsolete.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

I read about that too, basically it takes the nuclear waste and burns off any usable material in it for energy and leaves us with concentrate nuclear waster which can be ten to a hundred times more toxic.

Thanks but No Thanks.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

"Burn it until it is cold enough to eat"

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Nuclear power is not any better long term then fossil fuels, in that, theres estimated to be around 100 years worth of usuable fuel, to meet current and future energy needs.
There is a work around but has some nasty pit falls. Breeder reactors, current designs not upto the task but researching new ones deffinitely not politically viable.
Breeder reactors readily produce weapons grade nuclear materials.
Actually highr gas prices do have an upside they make alternatives more viable economically.
SUV's where built in part because they did not have to meet mileage and emmission standards of cars, resulting in lower production costs to auto makers(its not just the higher markups they get). SUV's in part where a quick fix to bottom lines. and we all know what quick fixes often lead to.

Re: OT: Gas Prices
 

Nope, that's not what I was referring to. I'll see if I have some time to do some research and find some links for you to look at. This waste would be much less toxic, not more.

It's too bad space flight isn't more reliable; we could then just send nulear waste into the sun!