Killing Infantry
 

Before I ask my question, I just want to express my deep gratitude to the members of this community. I have never experiences such prompt and useful responses to game questions and issues as I have on this board. You are all to be congratulated.

Now to my question:

A few days ago, I asked for and received some excellent advice -- particularly from Andy -- regarding how best to deal with the lethality of ATMs and RPGs etc. I now have a similar question regarding enemy infantry.

I am playing a generated campaign in the mide 80s in which I am playing West Germany and fighting the Soviets and East Germans. While I can now deal with the RPGs, ATGMs, and enemy armour, I am having an extrodinarily hard time dealing with enemy infantry. The problem is, they seem imune to small arms fire. I can suppress them with tank MGs, mortars, and my own infantry, but actually killing enemy squads seems to be a problem. I just concluded a scenario in which I had 5 Leopars II 5As and 6 Marder IIs (with their infantry) rain down fire upon a dismounted Soviet infantry squad in the absolute clear at range 1. In the first turn, I managed to kill 2 members of the squad and pin them. However, it took me 2 turns to force them to retreat, and a further 2 turns to kill them.

While the above example is extreme, it is not atypical -- at least for me. I would therefore like some advice on how best to deal with dismounted infantry. They seem to be extremely resillient (more so than some armour), and rally quickly (even after taking extreme losses).

Any advice would be most eagerly welcomed.

Thanks in advance,

Krotos

Re: Killing Infantry
 

My first check would be on "infantry toughness" in the preferences menu, to ensure that you have not inadvertantly managed to raise this to a high value?.

Shooting at infantry sections at 1 hex will chew them up, but if you have moved rather far, remember that the game will determine your movement as well as any of his, but even so you should be seeing 70% to-hit chances. A couple of blasts from your dismounted panzer greneadiers should make them retreaeat.

If you are really sure there are no units around at pinned or lower - enter the same hex as the target with shift key and really give them a toasting. Especially with infantry as 0 hex combat is melee, and you will see extra casualties from the hand to hand combat.

I cannot recall if MBT has the surender code that is in WW2 yet - routing units will test for any enemy in the next or same hex, and may well surrender to these esp. if these block retreat, and/or there are a lot of enemy units in good morale within 1 hex.

And finally - your infantry will shoot at retreating infantry, in his retreat phase. Dismounting riflemen as a barrier to his retreat direction is good for sweeping up retreating remnants as they retreat into the firing line. But this has to be done with care - as exactly the same can happen to the blocking line if there are good status enemy about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!.

But with those sorts of reported low results v infantry, I would first have a look into the "infantry toughness" level in the preferences screen to see if maybe you have managed to raise this somehow?. Also - check the other preferences for hitting, troop quality etc, as you may have changed these from the defaults ??.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Fast moving AFV's are not very effective vs infantry. While it may look like your vehicle moves first then stops and fires, he's actually firing while moving very fast.
The best way to deal with them is as Andy said above, with other infantry at very close range. That's what you've got those Marders for. To transport infantry ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Get a squad of your own next to the enemy one and fire away.

On a more general note, don't forget about HMG and MMG units. These can kill and suppress lots of enemy troops from quite a distance while remaining unspotted themselves. They often get overlooked for modern battles but they are still very valuable! Epecially if you can target expensive infantry units.

Narwan

Re: Killing Infantry
 

All you have to do is customize, as Andy just said, if you are having a tough time dealing with Inf just reduce the infantry toghness to a level that suits yor idea of what "reality" should be.

BTW, you may notice a lot of shots comming from those suppressed infantry units, but most of them have no effect on your units, that´s the tedious part of clearing infantry. I know that way is the fairest way to go as the player needs to be informed of the result of every single attack, however I hope something can be worked out by the developers without much code-trouble.

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Thaks for the advice fellows.

Now please take what I am about to say in the spirit it is offered...it is not a complaint...just an observation.

I feel that in both this game as well as SPWaW, infantry is simply too resillient and too quick to rally. In some ways, they behave like fanatical automatons. Put yourselves in the position of the average infantryman and consider finding yourselves in the following scenario -- then tell me if you would react as I describe our hypothetical infantry behaves.

You are a member of a dismounted infantry platoon moving through a confined clearing towards a suspected enemy position some 300 m distant. All of a sudden, 120 mm mortar fire begins to rain down on you like hail. Explosions erupt all around you as men and body parts fly through the air amid the horrid cries of torment of the dead and dying. When the smoke clears, 60% of your platoon is wiped out and now you are taking fire from the position you had been advancing against killing scores more. You cringe in a crater hole preying for deliverance when you Platoon Seargent yells some words of encouragement which make you forget your perdiciment and even dispell the systemic shock you are suffering. You and the surviving members of the platoon rally to his call and renew your advance toward the entrenched enemy line in the distance. More of your comrades fall -- and once again the seargent rallys you up -- you press on. Eventually, you and the 5 or 10 survivors of your platoon find yourself 50 m from the enemy line -- a line populated by over 100 entrenched enemies pouring fire down on you...but you press on to the bitter end...after all, you are a russian soldier."

Does that sound like the reaction of the average soldier. I am no coward, but I can tell you for sure, it wouldn't be my reaction.

Krotos

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Hi Krotos,

also see my reply in another thread; 'kills' in the game are not only actual kills but include woundend and those fleeing the battlefield individually, putting them effectively beyond the ability of commanders to rally them within the short time span of the game. The 'surviving' members of the squads in your example are those men (maybe that handful that is NOT average) that stand their ground and for some reason are willing to keep going.

Narwan

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Hi all. I just noticed that infantry hits in WinSPMBT are now labeled "casualties", which is accurate and better than "kills".

As far as rally goes, I am reminded of Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer's story about the Greek campaign of 1941:

"We glue ourselves behind rocks and dare not move. A feeling of nausea tightens my throat. I yell to Emil Wawrzinek to get the attack moving. But the good Emil just looks at me as if he has doubts about my sanity. Machine-gun fire smacks against the rocks in front of us...how can I get Wawrzinek to take that first leap? In my distress, I feel the smooth roundness of an egg hand grenade in my hand. I shout at the group. Everybody looks thunderstruck at me as I brandish the hand grenade, pull the pin, and roll it precisely behind the last man. Never again did I witness such a concerted leap forward as at that second. As if bitten by tarantulas, we dive around the rock spur and into a fresh crater. The spell is broken. The hand grenade has cured our lameness. We grin at each other, and head forward toward the next cover." - Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer, "Grenadiere"

Basileus

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Yeah, right. I would kill the good-old grenade throwing squad leader if any of us survived the attack. This guy wouldn´t make me grin and respect the leader afterwards.

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Infantry hits have been labled "casualties" since 1998. It was one of the first changes we made to the games when we were working on SP2WW2 and it's been that way ever since

Don

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Hey all,

Actually, Basileus' quote from Kurt Meyer makes my point for me. Meyer was hardly what one could term "the average soldier" or leader.

Here is a summary of Meyer taken from his Allied interogators.

"Meyer embodied the conception of the fanatical Nazi who would fight to the death for his beloved Fuhrer. Few German officers could claim more combat experience than Meyer, who had begun his service with the SS in 1933 as a member of Hitler's elite bodyguard. In 1939, he fought in Poland, and in 1940, in Holland and France. As a regimental commander he played leading role in the Greek campaign. According to his interrogation report, when Hitler invaded Russia he was at the forefront of the drive to the east.
"For three years he fought in Russia reaching almost the furthest point to be achieved by German forces, deep in the remote Caucasus. Three times he was completely encircled by Russian forces, during the retreat, and fought his way out with a handful of survivors...To him the battle of Caen-Falaise was magnificent in the best Wagnerian tradition. As he described his actions and those of his men, it seemed as though he liked to consider himself as Siegfried leading his warriors to their deaths."

Fom: Interrogation of SS Major General Kurt Meyer, n.d. ,German Generals Collection. Liddell Hart Papers, King's College, London.

I don't think men of Meyer's metal were or are all that common.

Krotos

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Hey all,

Here is yet another quote concerning Kurt Meyer.

"Kurt Meyer was a classic example of the aggressive and ruthless Waffen-SS officer. He was a first rate leader who pushed his troops (and himself) to their limits. In a periodic review, he was characterized by Sepp Dietrich, the commander of the LAH, as a passionate soldier, which he certainly was. During his interrogation by the Canadians shortly after the war, Meyer viewed the struggle in Normandy as "magnificent in the best Wagnerian tradition. As he described his actions and those of his men, it seemed as though he liked to consider himself as Siegfried leading his warriors to their death."

"The Valour and the Horror" Web Site

The point is, men like Meyer may even be able to rally the dead, but the average officer or NCO is not made of similar metal. In SPMBT, all of the squad leaders appear to be Kurt Meyer clones.

Krotos

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Siegfried leading his warriors to their death. Yet he survived the war. Considering his superior morale and fighting skill and commitment, it is a bit surprising. Maybe he too layed low during the worst engagements.. to survive to fight another day, or just shivering with fear like the rest of us would.

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Ah, thanks Don. I'm an old SPIII hand, and spend more time tweaking OOB files than playing so I hadn't noticed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Basileus

Re: Killing Infantry
 

I hear you. I'd rather be led by someone like the stoic Sgt.Rock hollering "C'MON, EASY!" myself than have some http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif lob a grenade at me. Then again, it's probably a cultural difference...a WW2 Japanese officer could rally their troops into a suicide charge with a wave of his katana and a "Hail to the Emperor", while Belisarius' Thracian Bucellarii didn't even need such encouragement to rush to his aid when he got himself ambushed by the Goths at Rome. As others have said, Panzer Meyer wasn't exactly a nice guy. But he understood the danger of losing the momentum of the assault and getting pinned by enemy fire; in SPMBT, if you stay in one spot for more than a couple turns, even the AI will stonk you with artillery, and that will certainly be fatal.

Basileus

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Agreed, such "super rally" leaders should be few and far inbetween, probably best represented with high leadership quotients for specific individuals rather than overall troop quality ratings. The default infantry toughness in SPMBT does seem high, but it's also a double-edged sword in that if you're playing a Western nationality, your own troops should be more prone to look after their casualties than the game's infantry toughness quotient may suggest. In the old GDW map-and-counters game called "Phase Line Smash", the designers made an interesting note regarding disruption (their version of pinned/retreat, which means Coalition units can't attack after taking hits until auto-recovery next turn):

"So how come the Coalition units are such a bunch of babies with no combat ability when disrupted, and the (Iraqis) are hairy-chested warriors who keep fighting even when they're down? Most of this is due to the differences in scale, Coalition battalions vs. (Iraqi) brigades, but also because when a Coalition unit is hit, it does stop as soon as possible to take care of casualties and to regroup before continuing the fight. A diagnostic feature of (Coalition) units is that they will stop and focus their attention on the care of even one casualty in the middle of a firefight. And don't think it's because they're a bunch of babies. It is that very same team cohesion that makes them such excellent fighters. Soldiers don't fight very well when they know no one gives a damn. On the other hand, you have the Iraqis, who didn't fight very well, because they know no one did, and were defeated before they started. At the same time, their command and control was so godawful that they might as well keep fighting when disrupted, they're not that much more in the dark now than they were before, anyway. Coalition units used sophisticated doctrines and operations that did require them to stop, regroup, and sort things out before continuing. And their terrifying effectiveness when doing so proves the wisdom of taking an extra moment to do it right" - probably Dave Nilsen (parenthetical paraphrasing for clarity)

Basileus

Re: Killing Infantry
 

Hi,
Another opinion on the subject.

Infantry are hard to kill, those guys are not standing out in the open waiting for you to shoot them :-) they are making use of every bit of cover they can find.

So Pin them with fire, then pound them with artillery and keep it going until they start to take casualties and retreat/rout and as they retreat keep pounding them, don't give them an option to regroup. From observation, routing units are much easier to kill with small arms fire and MICV armament, even Tank secondary armament has a better effect. Not sure if this is actually stated in the manual, about routing units, but it seems to hold true.

Artillery after all is the killer of the battlefield. Infantry are there to mop up afterwards.

One other point on this is once you have a target for your artillery don't keep switching it every turn. Pick a target and hit it hard until you are sure it's not going to bother you again.

TY
Andy

Re: Killing Infantry *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by baggypants

Re: Killing Infantry
 

If the enemy infantry are out in the open (Even pinned) a cluster warhead is great fun at improving the situation. If they're dug in land LARGE things that go bang on their head, the larger the better.

Flame based weapons also shift infantry fast.

But as otehrs have said, Supress tehm, then get your own infantry in postion and start mowing them down up close works every time.

Re: Killing Infantry
 

I've been playing alot of infantry themed campaings and scens (many of which feature no arty, planes, mortars or anything other than basic infantry, and maybe some apcs), I've found the best way to get rid of enemy infantry, is waste their return fire in your turn (preferably on things they can't kill, or squads far away to prevent mass casulties), and then get an infantry squad in the next hex and open fire from close range.

This can be done with regular foot infantry (it takes slightly more planning and turns), or mechanized infantry, sometimes it takes 2 or 3 turns "preparing" the enemy squad, and then one good strike to take them out of the game.

Of course, you could substitue that with any sort of thing which has enough fire to hurt the squad (apc, tank etc), but generally you need to pin the squad, waste their return fire, and then move a squad into the next hex.

Regular firefights (between 3 and more hexes) you'll probably need something like a heavy sniper to break the deadlock.

oh, one more thing, when you are moving units for the enemy to shoot at (or shooting at them getting a response back), try to use different units for every movement\firing.

Re: Killing Infantry
 

By the way, while we're on the topic of infantry combat, let me say I'm impressed with dismounts in WinSPMBT. Watching those Marines in the Obong-ni Ridge scenario duke it out with T-34s in adjacent hexes and actually holding their own, that was impressive. On the receiving end, I like the fact that my tanks being ambushed by hidden infantry in adjacent hexes don't automatically result in my tanks being killed. That part of SP3 was a royal pain...I mean, they only had HAND GRENADES. I can't remember where I read it, perhaps it was Andy Gailey in the help file for Kobhack, but it was said that infantry WILL find a way to take out unescorted tanks that blunder into an infantry ambush (of course, having LAWs/RPGs would improve their odds, but even with just grenades there was a very good chance your tank would be toast). Now, SP3 was platoon-based, so your poor multi-tank unit might get reduced to a single survivor in one move! That's a kick in the crotch I don't miss

Basileus