Vanheim Musings
 

First off, much thanks to all the folks who set me on a correct path with blooded marignon. I demonstrated to my mates really quick how awesome blood magic is. And they were pretty surprised when 300+ devils & some veyr nice Arch Demons/Demon Lords started romping around in their country.

However, now, I\\\'ve begun musing on the Vanheim. Of course, I\\\'m still playing within the very annoying unpatched and no CB mod constraints.

I was reading an old thread that essentially proclaimed Vans and mini SC human commanders as the second coming.... Without CB and pre-patch Vans cost 70 gold, so are they still worth pursuing in bulk for an army?

Also, the human commander mini SC topic was only lightly touched on. Myself being a noob, would anybody point out what things I\\\'d plop on them early game to make them SCs? I\\\'ve experimented with various items, but everything is rather \\"eh.\\" I feel like there is some vital principal behind building SCs I\\\'m missing.

Finally, Pretender wise (and this ties in with the bulk Vans strategy), since I\\\'m playing pre-patch I\\\'m thinking a Vampire Queen SC is in order (unless the super blessed Vans is a smart route to go, even pre-patch). My current VQ has 2A/2W/1D/2B. Quickness and Mirror Image kick off the game. Is there anyway for me to refine this?

Thanks for input!

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Didnt read this human commander SC thread but I'm not sure what they were driving at. I've tried a couple of times to use humans as SCs and have always failed. Thier problem is tha they just dont have the base hitpoints to survive an unlucky round. Some prophetized humans can get OK - Lord Wardens, Warlords, maybe some cavalry. But they dont really stand up to the regular thug chasis.

As for Vans: yes they are most certainly useful in bulk. The trick is just to give them a really good bless. F9/W9 is considered the standard, I believe. When combined with the existing speed of the Vans and thier innate mirror image it makes them incredibly powerful.

The only pretender that I think reasonably support F9/W9 is the Moloch?

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Yes devils and demons are some of the most powerful units in the game. I'm surprised none of them would be interested installing the official patch since that does fix game crashes/errors, adds some balance and adds some new content.

We need more information... what size map? how many opponents ? what nations are being played by your opponents ? what type of diplomacy if any exist within the game ? do one or more of your opponents lean towards a specific strategy ?

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

My advice to you, spacepain, is to come to this forum for advice before every game with your mates, so that we can enlighten you in the ways of exploiting cheesy tactics that exist only in unpatched-unmodded-Dominions, so after each ***-kicking be sure to explain to your mates how you would not have been kicking their asses had they installed the latest official patch and CB mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Other than that, the most obvious tip I can give you has been mentioned already - F9W9 blessing on vans. With their high innate defence and the defence bonus from W9 they become almost untouchable and F9 makes sure they can pack enough of a punch to take down any common unit.
But even so, I'd say that in the end game, the vans pale in comparison to SCs, mage squads and summons, so you'll probably have to go for somewhat of a "rush" tactic to capitalize on their early strength. (though the wealth that the early rush will provide you should definitely make up for that. Just be careful not to get ganged up on!)

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

If you want to try the "human" thug route, you can always use Vanir commanders. Blessing, inherent bonuses, few magical items... Air also has some buffs, although I don't think Mistform helps against magic, and I'm not sure about Mirror Image when they already have Glamour.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

"My advice to you, spacepain, is to come to this forum for advice before every game with your mates, so that we can enlighten you in the ways of exploiting cheesy tactics that exist only in unpatched-unmodded-Dominions, so after each ***-kicking be sure to explain to your mates how you would not have been kicking their asses had they installed the latest official patch and CB mod"

Haha, thanks for the help. They'd prolly just stop playing dominions 2 before patching, though, as it takes far less energy to do.
Questions put here are done in retrospect of my matches with friends. Matches with friends are spontaneous all-nite 100-200 turn blitzes. There isn't any really any time to prepare specific strategies. Me thinks, I'll just leech off the collective brilliance of you folk till I'm a compedium of Dominions 2 information that's bursting at the seams.

"Other than that, the most obvious tip I can give you has been mentioned already - F9W9 blessing on vans. With their high innate defence and the defence bonus from W9 they become almost untouchable and F9 makes sure they can pack enough of a punch to take down any common unit."

Thank you, for confirming they're still a completely legitamately useful unit. The forum I read had them priced at 35 gold apiece. In (my version) the game has them at 70 gold, which made me cringe at first. I've played with them a little bit now, and they do actually seem to be pretty flipping sweet early game.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Heh, playing that many turns in a one sitting blitz... that's just insane. I have played all day blitzes as far as maybe turn 50, and that's getting toward 1-hour turns or more. In fact, I am not sure I have ever heard of a multiplayer game of any kind played by vetrans that gets to turn 100 without it being basicly decided.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Hmm. I think I'm one of the main human pretender (if that's what you mean) as SC players, falling a distant second or third to the famous and infamous Norfleet. Both of us had taken human pretenders in human (or human and immobile only) games, and risen to the top of the Hall of Fame, under various patches and incarnations of the Balance mods (which you _really_ should try to get your friends to use - it's brain dead simple).

You either get your pretender setup as incredible artillery (possibly the easier option unmodded / unpatched) or as a go-it-herself bad *** devourer of armies. Both have many potential paths, artillery more so than others....

I'm not sure what Norfleet used, but am fairly certain it wasn't anything like what I did - he went more for artillery.

Frankly - I can't give too many details, because it's been over a year since the ... MP community hasn't used the CB (conceptual balance) mods. But one of my tests involved trying a freaklord (generally considered one of the worst pretenders) without the CB mod. Wasn't nearly as potent for a variety of reasons - but I did find I was capable of taking out 1/2 the independent provinces (with indies 6-7) after 3 or 4 turns research. Easier if I had a nation that either had etherealness or BoW as a national spell.

Part of that was "Trample" - but BoW and FS also let you kill all indies that get close to you, as long as you have good enough defenses (regen, ethereal, luck, mistform, mirror image, armor or defense, etc) to survive them swinging at you.

But seriously - get your friends to patch, to use at least an ... old Conceptual Balance mod (the pretender version (modding only pretenders) has had essentially 0 complaints in a year and a half or more). Without at least the CB pretender mod - only 4 or 6 (counting nation specific pretenders) have a chance against players of equal skill, barring huge anomalies in luck (finding the A2E2 mage citadel, etc).

It's easy enough - and if your friends are local, you could load the mod on their computer, and it's automatically loaded / used if the host game has it set. Presuming that'd be you hosting, since your friends don't sound technical enough to do so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

\"It\'s easy enough - and if your friends are local, you could load the mod on their computer, and it\'s automatically loaded / used if the host game has it set. Presuming that\'d be you hosting, since your friends don\'t sound technical enough to do so.\"

I do host the games, infact. So, inorder to utilize the CB mod, I simply need to enable it on my own computer? None of the clients also need the CB mod? I\'ll just start hosting with it then. I was under the impression they\'d also need the mod in order to play on a modded server.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Uh, they need the mod ESPECIALLY on pretender mods when they make their god. I fail to see why anybody wouldn't use community-created mods unless they were both ultra-paranoid and ultra-clueless about their own computer. Send it to them personally if they are sqeamish, with specific instructions on where to unzip the file. Everything else is menu-driven in the game itself.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Also note that unpatched dominions can't use mods.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

as said F9W9 vans are the way to go, huge defence, high attack, 2 flaming attacks, high speed, reasonable protection and a shield (which incase you didnt know gives a 50% chance of blocking a ranged attack). the pretender that gives this bless makes great artillery and can fight nicely too with buffs likequickness, breath of winter and fireshield (which combined with lvl 9 fire completely owns).
for your castle a good choice is a watch tower, you dont need many resources to produce vans and its cheap enough to allow you to make a few (which means more vans can be made http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif). with a double bless you'll want high dominion but that along with the cost of 2 lvl 9 blesses means you need to take bad scales. I've just tested without cb mod on (although im not sure if patches changed cost of moloch/his magic ect) but what i got was:
F9W9 Moloch
watchtower
7 dominion
sloth 3
death 3 (it has almost no impact unpatched/modded)
cold 1
order 1
also if your using van herse's as thugs give them a blood thorn, its a life drain weapon (therefore it rocks) and single handed so you can still use a shield (try blood thorn, lucky coin and possibly horror helm/horned helm since fear/another flaming attack is always good and rime hauberk/other armour since cold radiation/other good armour is useful too. also consider cat charm (because extra defence+ vans high defence+W9 rocks) and/or ring of regen/amulet of anti magic.)

and if you guys have another game and you really want to show them why they should use CB try caelum spamming false horrors. get a bunch of seraphs/high seraphs and script them to quickness, summon false horror, summon false horror, summon false horror, summon false horror cast spells.
it only costs 10 fatigue unmodded (compared to 30 modded) and is pretty deadly.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

No, they give a bonus based on their defense rating. You can probably find the formula with a forum search.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

oops, i thought it was 50% chance to block missiles. o well.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

"with a double bless you'll want high dominion but that along with the cost of 2 lvl 9 blesses means you need to take bad scales."

I'm assuming your rationale for a high dominion is I could produce more vans per turn since they're holy units. However, with how it is worded, it can be construed that there is a relationship between blesses and dominion strenght - is this true?

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

I checked the Tome (if you haven't DL'd it - highly recommended to try to cost out a concept):
Moloch is the cheapest to get F/W 9/9 ... 665 points. You'll have to take at least 4 extra negative scales (on top of the Cold 1 Vanheim favors) just to afford it at all. Add a WatchTower for your castle, and you'll at least be able to bump opening Dominion to 5. (Vans and Valks being as resource-cheap as they are, at least a couple of those bad scales likely should be in Sloth, your call on the rest.)
Unless something changed in one of the patches or mods you might be using...

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

I have played Van in my last 3 MP games. You could go with a F9/W9 blessing, but...

1) You can't totally skimp on dominion
2) 70 gold isn't something to sneeze at
3) You also have to factor in the costs of Vanir and Smiths

IMHO van is better served with 1 bless and decent scales then a double bless and crap scales. Take a dragon with F9. He can go out romping after you get Fire Shield, and can solo 90% of the indies.

F9 blessing works incredibly well and still allows you to take decent scales. You can't take drain as Van, as smiths are your only viable researchers at 180 gold a pop, and capitol only you can't mass them. 1 a turn.

Valks/Vans is an effective combo. Most people shy away from Valks, I have no clue why. Set to hold and attack, you can get in their rear and they tear through archers and commanders. And your vans take care of the infantry.

You need to supplement your national forces with summons. I am one of the people who actually like vans troops, but you will be spending the majority of your income on smiths, vanir, vans/valks, and indy mages. Build 1 smith a turn, and turn any 1b smiths out to get a blood income going. Hopefully you'll get lucky and find some amazons, if not you will have to boost 1 smith to start the blood booster chain. Storm demons are awesome, and you can easily get Arch and Ice devils if you plan right.

Earth is your friend, it will give you access to great summons, and dwarven hammers. Learn to abuse this.

You also have mages that can cast petrify with 1 earth booster, or if you get lucky and get a 4e smith, with summon earth power. This is huge, as you have national mages that can deal with SCs.

Blade wind will take out half of the armies...the half that use lightly armored troops, and you can get access to a bunch of different combat spells depending on what your randoms are. You need smiths to research, so only pull them out once you have the basic things done (alteast con4,evo4-5, Alt 3, conj3 etc.). You can win most of the early wars without them, and they really come into their own once you have researched what they need to dish out the pain. This is especially true if you haven't found sages.

Vanir at 280 (cb mod) your going to need to lead your troops. I generally don't use them as thugs (thats what they are not SCs), as they are your only general that can lead 50 troops. They are great mages, so I would use them as such.

Your greatest weakness is in site searching and research.

Send your friends here and have them ask why they should use the patch first off, and the mod second off. I have never heard of anyone that didn't patch a game...so I really can't understand that angle.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

also try getting those b1 smiths up to summoning demon knights, ive found recently that these little guys kick ****. they have good stats, fire resistance and cause fear.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Plus demon knights are way cool. Prophetize one and call him Lord Soth or something so you can be like me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Nice write-up, OG... I like the combo of Air and Blood with Vanheim, though I've been significantly less successful in my MP endeavors.

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

Thanks for the thoughts!

I tried a f9 Moloch, and have to agree the van\'s are still pretty kick butt. The economic bonuses (esp. with CB mod... I\'m boycotting hosting till everyone in my group patches & mods) and gold you reap from not having to take so many negative scales become apparent very quickly as you can recruit 2-3 times as many vans with just the first few turns.

It appears that (from my casual testing) 30 f9 blessed Vans are considerably stronger than 10 of their f9w9 blessed counter parts. The w9, almost seems to be over kill, even against 7+ indies. The positive scales carry on to have much nicer effects into the mid game where vans start to peter out some.

I suppose, f9w9 vans still have their place. with 9+ players on a tiny map like Urgia or Sundering. One could take out several players within the first 20 turns....

Thanks for the advice!

Re: Vanheim Musings
 

the reasons the f9/w9 vans are popular are: you lose less so the lower number isnt too important and they are slightly more useful later on. if your looking for other good blesses try n9 or n9/e9 neifel jarls (super high health and with n9 regenerating) or f9/n9 white centaurs (20 health so a little regen, decent defence, with n9+natural they have +6 berserk and they have multiple attacks and stealth. with gloves of the gladiator, pendant of luck and ring of regen their commanders also make tough, unroutable thugs.