Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Hi all,

Been playing quite a bit since it came out (and a lot of SP-WW2 for DOS as well). Great games and thanks a lot for the effort!

OK, onto the question/observation:

It seems to me that infantry casualties at 50m are dramatically increased from the DOS version (and this is just from standard rifle fire not even included the often added carnage from grenades and whatnot). They seem to be high almost regardless of circumstance (smoke in the hex, terrain in the hex, 'assault moving' into the hex etc).

I fired up a 39 Russian Campaign against the Poles and the first battle generates a lot of woods. LOS is basically 50m for most of the engagement due to the woods meaning you basically have to walk into the enemy unit to find them. And doing so invariably results in 3-5 casualties from rifle fire alone and being thrown back. Given that you can make no return fire unless you 'stick', it leads to some fairly unassailable positions far in excess of what I would consider to be reality.

In the DOS version, casualties at 50m seemed to be lower on average (although with the occasional heavy loss and throw back). If you could get one guy to stick, you could return fire and put some suppression fire down allowing another squad to come up and start the assault. So far I have been unable to duplicate that ability in the Win version simply because the initial rifle shot is so deadly (again, regardless of conditions).

So, was something done to increase these close action casualties and if so, why? It never seemed out of whack before. And given that its a turn-based game, there is no opportunity for a 'firefight' in these situations. You either get to stay in the hex or you dont with no chance of even firing a single round at the enemy position.

My suggestion, for what its worth, would be to reduce those initial casualties quite a bit and restore the flow of the close-terrain battles. Right now they dont seem to be a lot of fun and there isnt much you can do beside just hope you get lucky and have a guy stick and not retreat (not likely with the casualties inflicted). Sure, you can bombard with arty, but you have to have a clue where the enemy is first and unspotted fire (the only kind you'll get in these situation) is just as likely to hit friendly troops as enemy.

I have no save games, but its easy to recreate. Just make any map with a lot of close terrain. I first noticed it when I was playing a 'Bulge' scenario as the Amis. The Germans just had no chance to every really get shots at my troops. I was killing 4-5 per shot and they never got to 'stick' and fire back. I killed off about 450 German troops losing 6 of my own. I attributed it the AI. Then I've played a number of assault-type scenarios as the attacker into close terrain and the situation is similar...horrendous losses without so much as a shot back at the enemy.

Another suggestion that would probably be difficult coding-wise would be to have the moving troops shoot back once at 50m before being repulsed. That would at least put some suppression potential on the defender and allow follow-up squads to not be walking d#ck in hand into a 'known' ambush and being slaughtered again and again.

Thoughts? Was the code changed? Is it really an improvement over the old results?

Thanks!

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

And somebody was complaining earlier of the infantry being too tough. This version 'may' be a bit too easy, but then I know the previous version was way too tough.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

I think overall, Infantry casualties are fine. Its just the 50m stuff that seems high.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

If you think the infantry casualties are too high, ramp up the infantry toughness a little. Personally, I think gameplay (what I've done so far) is just fine.

troopie

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

They are only too high at 50m. If Infantry toughness is cranked up, they will be too tough at other ranges.

Thats why I'm curious if the code changed to increase lethality within 50m.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

I haven't seen enough 50m battles to comment, but just look at the next longest range, 100m. 50m fire ought to be twice as effective, though I never think of it in those terms. Another thing too, every single weapon can engage at 50m, though I see you're talking about rifle fire.

I see too that you think the rifle fire is fine at longer ranges, but if you're making that judgement on what happened in the DOS version, even at that range this version is very different. It seems to me that perhaps you're complaining, if we can call it that, because you're sick of the rifles knocking them into retreats and not being able to get a good crack at them with something more substantial. I know I'm that way a lot of the time, but the way I figure it, though I would rather have it close to hopefully destroy it, if my weakest weapon can knock them off my infantry it's a pretty good exchange most of the time. Man, it's really a bummer when your unit is in thick woods and during the enemy turn during reaction your pioneer only gets to rifle them and they just retreat, knowing full well they'll probably come again and you might not be so lucky especially when they start massing, but if that's what you're thinking there is a semi-solution.

You can just de-activate the rifles or whatever other reaction weapons you don't want firing, but, as I said, I think the weakest weapon doing some harm isn't too bad a deal a lot of the time. It's too bad in situations like that, that you can't tell the units to use their rifles 'last'.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Joe,
I know what you mean but the solution, IMHO, is realistic and that is to preceed your advance with plenty of supressive artillery fire then move in. I've found that the defender is usually suppressed enough that every squad you move against them doesn't get shot up and routed. Then just keep after them. If you have engineers, then turn off the rifles so you can 'light them up!' before they retreat.
If you are unsure of their positions, use a rolling barrage that you follow - not too closely.....
And don't forget that a spotter plane or two can tell you a lot before you lay down the barrage...

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Yes, massed arty can do the trick, but in small engagement there doesnt tend to be a lot of arty of hand for speculative fire.

Also, it just feels wrong in city fights when you cant even engage the enemy. IMO, close in city fighting should involve casualties on both sides and infiltration and surprise. But with the way the system works, thats tough to accomplish because unsuppressed infantry almost automatically spot and engage anything adjacent and with the current lethality fire, kill a handful, and throw the rest back with no counter-fire.

Again, I felt it was about right in the DOS version. I'm just wondering what the change was (if any) and/or the reasoning behind said change. The rules blurb on range even states that units in adjacent hexes arent necessarily at point-blank range to each other so why does nearly every shot seem like its a firing squad?

At the very least perhaps a few more 'go to ground' or 'seek cover' results could occur at 50m to protect against the full brunt of all of the weapons every time. But just reducing 50m rifle casualties in close terrain would be great IMO.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

the problem seems to be that you can never suprise the enemy, they always no you have snuck up on them, even from behind. this is how historically you would attack an enemy at 50m and not get chewed up. (with no artillery or supporting fire)

but I guess you have to assume in every situation that all sides now a fight is going on, and are waiting prepared and ready for enemy.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Yes, so to counteract that, there should be pretty good possibility to not inflict lethal fire at that range.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

That is a technical AI problem. Taking directions into account would increase calculations complexity several times. Don't think anything could be done about it without serious rewriting AI code.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

I dont know if all of you noticed, but if Uncle talks about Russian 39' campaign, he must be facing polish infantry squads of 19 men each. In fact, they have double firepower of average squad.
Believe me - we did have lots of fun with those polish squads (especially myself, as I tend to play a lot with Poles) during testing. They ARE tough, so running into them at full speed could be a risky bussines.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Yes, those huge squads do make a mess and yes, it was in that battle that I really sat up and took notice. After that I tried a few other battles in close terrain and saw similar (if perhaps less spectacular) results.

Its not even the casualties per se, its the 'throw back' that results from taking so many casualties at once. That is what doesnt seem right to me. You move up, lose a handful of men and get tossed right back without ever firing a shot.

If the casualties were lower, the resulting 'morale check' or whatever it is might be more passable resulting in a few more 'sticks' (again, which is what I recall from the DOS version).

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

If we are talking realism (with each and every player having his own opinion about realism, I am aware of that) I like the way it is. If we are talking gameplay - well, I just ran a quick, simple test and had no problem whatsoever to pinn down enemy with area fire. Enemy was spotted, in the woods, not in LOS, range 3 hexes. Needed two squads (one halted, second on the move) to pinn enemy down.
Tried only once, didnt repeat test, but had no problems with achieving the goal WITHOUT any arty. Pure inf vs inf.
With some more luck first squad should probably do the job on its own.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Try the same thing in an all urban environment (individual building..not factories with internal LOS) or when the LOS for trees is restricted to 1 hex. As I've said, the combat results seem fine outside of 1 hex (50m). So spotting at 3 hexes, pinning etc all work fine.

That does not work when dealing with 1 hex LOS in close terrain. You can provide no cover fire because you cant see the enemy. To see it, you must be adjacent. When you move adjacent, you trigger the OP fire which more than likely will cause 2-4 casualties from the Rifle, 1 more from the SAW, and 1-2 more from the grenades. Somewhere in there, you are thrown back a hex. So you've gained nothing except for 4-6 casualties. The next squad has the same option...move up, take it in the shorts and hope to 'stick'. If not, the third squad is still in no better position than the other two. Following turns are worse because your initial squads are already wrecked to no gain.

Since there is no ability to move simultaneously to overwhelm the enemy and no ability to get some 'prep fire' on him, he has defensive capabilities in excess of reality. You have to attack him piecemeal and you get chewed up piecemeal.

So because of the limitation imposed on the attacker by the one unit at a time movement system, the defender should NOT inflict those kind of casualties (and hence 'morale checks') on every unit that moves within 50m. The attacker is being unfairly penalized due to the iterative turn-based system. To compensate, the defender should lose some lethality on its 1 hex defensive fire.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

I have to agree here,
But what could be done within the code to alleviate the "problem" if infact no changes were made in this area since the dos version, and would this not also be a major change to how sp gameplay works?

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

I thought it was fine in the DOS version. There were times when the casualties were high, but there were plenty when they would only kill one or two guys and the attacker stayed put allowing for some return fire.

I dont know what the change was (if any), but the impression I get is much higher lethality from rifle fire at range one. So whether its a change in the formula or the data or just imagined, I dont know but I feel like the close-in combat in the Win version is markedly inferior to the previous version.

To 'fix' it, simply restore the 50m rifle casualty rate back to what it was in the DOS version.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

The issue is currently under discussion. WinSPww2 was build from WinSPMBT as a base then the WW2 bit added in so it's not DOS soww2 and it's not winSPMBT either. There have also been a number of small changes to the direct and indirect fire routines and even small changes in one area can affect another and it doesn't take much to change the balance of the game.

As I said. We're looking into the issue

Don

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

OK, thanks for the update. I look forward to hearing what you decide.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

It is up to Don and Andy to decide if it needs fixing or not, not me.
But I think you did miss my point. You dont need LOS to use area fire. Thats exactly what area fire is for - provide cover when you cant see the enemy.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Hang on, are you saying that Area Fire is effective (and targetable) in hexes that you cant possible draw a LOS/LOF to? If so, I'd consider that a major flaw in the game.

I thought that Area Fire allowed you to target hexes without visible targets, but not hexes that arent visible to the unit.

Using Area Fire as you describe allows you to shoot through multiple buildings? Over hills (ala indirect)?

Thanks for the heads up though.

Edit: Ok, I tested it and it works like you describe. You can indeed fire into places that would not be possible to hit. I'm not sure if I like that or not, but it is effective. Again, thanks for the heads up on it. It should make the city assaults a little more possible. I suppose it could simulate little skirmish teams and whatnot because it does seem limited to 2 hexes range if you dont have LOS.

The best thing they could do for the AI would be to 'teach' it to area fire on places where it's taken fire from over and over previously. Obviously that is probably far easier said than done.

That said, casualties still seem too high at 50m (in terrain). Moving in a building 50m away (with smoke in many cases) should not be as fatal as it is now.

I guess at this point it just time to wait and see the results of their analysis, testing, and changes.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

well, basically saying - yes.
It has limits though. E.g. you can fire thru one building, not two or more, up to 150m (IIRC) in the forrest. Cant fire thru hills IIRC.
All of above info comes from memory, dont have time to check now.
BTW it is a feature, not a bug.
Play around with it, when you get some time.

You are welcome, thats what we are here for.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

I ran a little test scenario, of a company attacking a tree covered hill guarded by a plt. I used the mg, at the base of the hill to area fire into the hill top. this pinned the infantry guarding the hill.

I then assualted the hill, while not totalling stoping enemy opfire they were pinned enough were I could return fire.
in the end, I took the hill and suffered about 30 casualties about equal to enemy casualties. (using no artillery, only a single company level mg team)

I did notice that since the area fire is not as accurate as regular firing, it caused some suppression to my own troops near where I was area firing the mg.

properly using area fire my be a solution to attacking prepared unpinned enemy in built up terrian.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

The most effective tactics here in real life are small teams of infiltrators. In WinSPMBT your scout units, having only around 4 men, are hard to spot and will often be able to sneak adjacent to an enemy unit without getting fired at. I don't know if this is also true in WinSPWW2, but these scout units are good for getting the first shots while advancing in close terrain.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

superb analysis...IMHO infantry lethality, particularly at shorter ranges, has always (i.e. even the DOS version) been WAY over the top. the whole move close, get massacred, bounce without shooting back routine has always, for me, detracted from the game. even in urban environments it is impossible for opposing units to remain adjacent to one another for more than a turn or two as one or the other will surely be routed or destroyed.

WWII infantry advancing slowly/carefully while in cover (e.g. urban environment) isn't the same as napoleonic era troops marching shoulder-to-shoulder up to the muzzles of the enemies guns. one of the reasons SPWW2 squads draw so many casualties is that, apparently, the entire population of the squad is considered as being "available" as a target in covered terrain. in fact, squads would advance slowly by individuals (e.g. point man) and/or small teams by alteranting movement with staionary periods providing for cover of movement of others.

rifle fire, particularly the bolt-action type, effectiveness in SPWW2 is murderous beyond belief. the bolt action rifle's major role was to provide a sense of "self-defense comfort" to the bearer and be a noisemaker and marginal suppressor of fire. producing casualties at the SPWW2 rate during WWII would have seen the war over in 1940 as all combatants would have exhausted all available manpower resources quickly.

couple this with your excellent observation on movement and fire in SPWW2 (move one at a time against "all units in range" opfire) and squads get shredded rapidly and fire not a shot in reply.

i ran exhaustive tests, even reducing rifle range to a more practical 7 hexes (that being effective range, not the spec for ammo max range) and even reducing HE kill to 0. it helped some but at range 1 it was still incredibly bloody.

my conclusions:
1. rifle fire is IN GENERAL 4-5 times too lethal (i.e. needs to be reduced by roughly 65-75%) and
2. at range 1 it is about 10 times too lethal (i.e. needs to be reduced by about 90%).
3. units encountering enemy at range 1 should ALWAYS return fire at least once before "bouncing" if forced to retreat (i.e. move adjacent, take fire, give fire, retreat.) fire for the moving unit in this situation should be calculated BEFORE deducting casualty losses caused by the initial defender "volley".
4. moving infantry unit casualties from direct fire should be restricted when moving adjacent to stationary enemy infantry units according to speed:
a. moving slowly, only 20% of squad personnel can be casualties
b. moving 40%
c. moving fast 80%

so a 12 man squad moving slowly in heavy cover adjacent to a defending squad could lose NO MORE than 12x 20% or 2.4 casualties.

all other conditions equal, opposing squads on adjacent hexes in cover in "one-on-one" situations should be able to hold postion and fire on their opposition for a number of turns without retreating or suffering crippling losses.

with both sides having similar manpower levels, in cover, motionless and dishing out about as much suppression as they get casualties would be low. one might get the occasional grenade casualty but that would be it. forcing the issue would require more manpower/firepower to tip the balance in favor of the stronger party.

best,
vic

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

good suggestions, but can these even be implemented with the game code? and there will always be people who disaggree.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Historically troops with shoddy morale or poor training have been known to run from enemy troops without firing a shot. I believe the staying power of an infantry unit under these circumstances is in part related to their morale and experience ratings. If we're talking about realism than I don't think we should assume that every 14 year old volkssturm should be capable of putting into practice whatever meager training he recieved in a combat situation.

Furthermore, while you are correct in your observations about infantry combat in Steel Panthers, what you're suggesting is largely outside the scope of the game. Infantry combat may be murderous, but its as murderous for them as it is for you. Proper usage of infantry tactics at the platoon level and above makes up for the lack of control at the squad level and below. Covering fire from other members of the platoon or the weapons platoon is there to provide a defense against other forces being brought to bear as one squad engages another or a similar objective (tank, MG, emplaced position, etc). You don't want to put yourself in a situation where you're smacking up against emplaced enemy infantry anyways. There are quite a few historical examples of such encounters leading to the near decimation of the advancing force. Ambushes work well for a reason.

Unless things have changed, stationary and unsuppressed infantry in my experience in-game have a habit of trading fire with minimal casualties and its only when the unit becomes suppressed (representing panic, loss of C&C, etc) or the unit is moving fast (also creating a possible sense of confusion and a drop in C&C) do casualties rise. Even at 50m most infantry disengage quickly rather than sit there and be chopped up, and if you're trying to stick it out rather than pulling back to the equally effective 100m range and what is likely associated cover you will likely be in a bad way quick. Furthermore if you're tasking individual squads with the destruction of individual squads in a 1 for 1 rather than using superior tactics, equipment, and/or numbers you're really not appreciating the scope of the game.

Lastly, one has to realize the scope of the game. Enemy infantry units must are destroyed much in the way vehicles are. When they have reached a critical point or their crew has been exhausted its over. It requires a certain increased level of lethality in order to work as a game, which it is first and foremost.

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

This is an old thread and the issues discussed are out of date.

The routines for adjacent hex combat were revised in the patch. There is far more chance an infantry unit will return fire after first contact and battle it out with an adjacent enemy unit than in the release version.

Don

Re: Infantry Casualties at 50m
 

Anyone still having problems should note that Z-fire/area fire will only hit hexes your unit could see if it weren't for smoke/trees. Buildings are barriers, as are hills/terrain. Find an enemy (by getting chewed up, yes), then light him up with area fire from the rest of the Platoon. Move them to 2 hexes away. Then, the next turn, move your assaulting squad adjacent. Just move 1 hex. You should then have a good chance to mangle them. Also, using FO's to fire mortars ends up with pretty good area accuracy. Finally, if still having trouble, just drop the Searching rating. At the scale of the game, I think a 65% would be more realistic, but that might just be me.