Obat15 - Australia
 

Firstly am I correct in assume that this is a purely Aust OOB and not a joint Aust/NZ one?

I am not sure if it’s worth making any corrections to this but there are a few points of interest.

1. The Infantry Company structures from mid 1950’s to end 1964 are out of whack with regard to official documentation. (Inf Trg Vol 4, ADF pub)

2. The armour, tanks, was supposed to have been fixed for version 2, but there are still the inaccuracies, (vers 2.5), Matildas, Grants, Churchill’s, etc.

I raise this as the changes to the Inf Coy structures would have a main impact to any existing scenario for that period.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

The Australian OOb is Australian. No NZ.

The formations were all put together with help from Dallas Gavan, who is in the Aus armed forces, and who contacted other branches to get the orgs.

And there were 51 Churchills used in the Australian army, as well as Grants and Matildas used postwar. http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Resea...hill/Chill.htm

Cheers
Andy

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

OK..
Firstly I did not say these tanks were not around, its a matter of termination date. Though I doubt it matters as I do not from memory ever recall any of these tanks leaving Australia.
As for the infantry srtuctures there would be some level of disagrement re sources and results eg:

Inf Coy of Inf Battalion – 1953
(source “Redcoats to Cams, A History of Australian Infantry 1788 to 2001; WO2 Ian Kuring, Australian Military History publication, 2004)

Each Coy has 3 Pls and each Pl has 3 sections

Coy HQ
. 2 Offrs, 10 ORs
. 2 x LMG
. 1 x 2” mor
. 1 x Universal carrier

Rifle Platoon x 3
Each platoon has a Pl HQ and 3 Rifle Sections as:
Pl HQ
. 1 Offr, 9 Ors
. 1 x 2” mor
. 1 x 3.5 RL
Rifle Section , 3 per platoon as:
. 10 Ors
. 1 x LMG

Inf Coy of Inf Battalion – late 1950s, (approx ‘56)
(source “Redcoats to Cams, A History of Australian Infantry 1788 to 2001; WO2 Ian Kuring, Australian Military History publication, 2004)

Each Coy has 3 Pls and each Pl has 3 sections and a Support Section

Coy HQ
. 2 Offrs, 8 ORs

Rifle Platoon x 3
Each platoon has a Pl HQ and 3 Rifle Sections and 1 Support Section as:
Pl HQ
. 1 Offr, 2 Ors
Rifle Section , 3 per platoon as:
. 9 Ors
. 1 x LMG
. 1 x SR, (Sniper Rifle)
Support Section
. 9 Ors
. 2 x 2” mor
. 1 x 3.5 RL

Inf Coy of Pentropic Inf Bn, 1960 – 1964
(source “Redcoats to Cams, A History of Australian Infantry 1788 to 2001; WO2 Ian Kuring, Australian Military History publication, 2004)

Each Coy has 4 Rifle Pls and a Weapons Pl, each Rifle Pl has 4 sections, the Weapons Pl has 1 section Mor and 1 section RL

Coy HQ
. 2 Offrs, 15 ORs
. 2 x GPMG

Rifle Platoon x 4
Each platoon has a Pl HQ and 4 Rifle Sections as:
Pl HQ
. 1 Offr, 3 ORs
Rifle Section , 4 per platoon as:
. 9 Ors
. 1 x GPMG

Weapon Pl x 1
Pl HQ
. 1 Offr, 3 ORs
Mor Sect as:
. 9 ORs
. 2 x 81mm mor
RL Sect
. 10 ORs
. 3 x 3.5 RL

As it stands with the current OOB the Pentropic structure has been left out.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

Ok - will add the pentropic in that time frame (but no adjustment to the AI pick, it is not nice to try to adjust the DAT files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif! - so for Humans only.

Andy

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

Added pentomic Inf Co
2xrifle section - (gives us the 2 LMG, if a bit over in man count)
4xpentomic rifle platoon
1xpentomic RCL section
1xMortar section

Added Pentomic rifle platoon
4xRifle Section (10 men each, roll the HQ in with that)

Added pentomic RCL sec
3xInf-AT
1xScout (makes up the 10 men)
- With the mortar section, that makes up the support platoon, and as a separate formation, you can place it in the rear without worries about C&C of the RCL det which will likely work up front of the coy.

cheers
Andy

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

OK. Thanks.

With respect to the human, are you interested in the Support Coy structure. I have this for a few years, 50's through to now, light, Mech and Motor Inf.
Inf Sp Coy Pls are not quite the same as RAA equivalents.


With the Engineer tanks, why was the Grant Dozer and Matilda Dozer left out?

With teh Flame tank you only have the Matilda Frog, yet there was the Churchill Crocodile available in the same time span. It did not vanish after WWII as they really arrived at the end of the war.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

TDR, on a seperate note, would you happen to have TO&E for SASR units for the Vietnam era? They're also left out of the OOB. I redid the RAR for my VN Pack, but wanted to include SASR as well.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

There are no Grant or Matilda dozers as a) we have no info on such and b) we have no icons for such. (But see Churchill AVRE.)

Support coy structure is not really interesting, as this would be broken down and attached to rifle coys, not bought as a "lump" really. Use mortar, missile, etc platoons as required and cross-attach.

Crocodile - verified, 2 examples of supplied to Australia with the 51 other Churchills. Added.

Churchill AVRE - verified - 2 examples of supplied with the other 51 Chulrchills. Added. (Although there is a question as to whether these were petard equipped, as the issue is in doubt and the only AVRE we have (UK OOB) is petard fitted, used that)

(Several (about 3) ARV Churchills supplied or converted - but entirely irrelevant to the game)

Churchill MkVIII - "almost half" the Churchills supplied were the CS version with 95mm CSH. Added this and allowed till 72. Extended CS tank formations to 72. Added a "mixed Church Tp" with 2 infantry tank and 2 CS tank to allow for that.


Cheers
Andy

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

SASR is a little gray. The OOB/TO&E for this is seldom as detailed.

Anyway attached pic of what I do have for 69 - 71 era. That should cover the formal issues.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

Yeah, the weapon thing as noted on the picture is sketchy. I have enough pictures to work that though. So I'm getting from that breakdown that every SASR Trp (A-D) has 20 guys in it. Is that further broken down into teams and is it even? 4 5-man teams?

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

The concept is several small teams. How you allocate weapons is very dependant on the operation involved.
It is possible to have a 10 man team as well, or run a Troop as a full force.
A lot will depend on how you intend to use the SASR in your scenarios.

This I suppose is the nightmare of using special units like this. If it was straight Commandos then it’s a little clearer, but the only 2 Commando units were "reserve" at that time. (using that term with care here).

Not that helpful

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

No, but does allow for a certain amount of flexibility. Thanks for the info.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

OK, continuing...
As I have come across several other oddities in the APC Sqn,(not Coy); the Motorised Inf, (Bushmaster Coy), the M113 Inf Coy, (Mech Inf) and several other formations.
These oddities are based on comparing the current formations in game against such docs as Manual of Land Warfare Pt 1, Aide Memoire,(Not an easy reference to find in the local library), and other similar material I have.

At present I am tied up on another project so I will get back to this later when I get more free time.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

Question (obat15 Australia):
The Units 035 & 036 (classed as gun APCs) don't have ANY carry capacity.
Similar units (for example USA) usualy have some and it also seems logical (to me) to have some (for a M113 with scorpion/saladin turret).

Suggestion:
Give them a capacaty between 4-6 man (scouts)

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

Googling came up with various pics of the interior of the M113A1 FSV

Best interior shot taken from rear door.

As you can clearly see the middle is naturally enough the gunners position and turret mechanics. The seats are left and right and are taken up by not surprisingly ammo. In some pictures the space closest to the door and to the right actually has a seat belt. I'm assuming it is for the loader. Doesn't look like there is any room in there for anyone extra except maybe a casualty lying on the deck close to the door.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

I couldn't find any good interior shots of the M113-106RR which is what I'm assuming is what you are declaring as equivalent to the FSV. You can kind of tell by the exterior pics that the 106mm RR is pintle mounted on the right side of the vehicle. Basically, it doesn't take up any additional interior space, except for ammo.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

The Australians wouldn't like it if you gave the M113A1 FSV and M113A1 MRV a carry capacity. These M113A1 units were unique to Australia with the FSV mounting the same turret as the SALIDAN armored car and the much improved MRV mounting the turret from the SCORPION CRV(T). The FSV saw service in Vietnam while the MRV entered service in the late 70's. Both were withdrawn from service in the Mid 70's and 1996 respectively. They both were crewed by three and carried no troops.
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/news/o...t/Oct05/rw.cfm
http://www.armytankmuseum.com.au/m113sala.htm
Pic of an in service MRV prior to 1996. Attachment 11799
http://www.armytankmuseum.com.au/i-vd.htm

A little info on the current LAND 106 upgrade program for the M113.
http://www.army.gov.au/Our-work/Equi...es/M113AS4#top
http://www.military-today.com/apc/m113as4.htm

And the best(?) saved for last, the complete timeline of Australia's armor from 1929 - 2001.
http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Research/Austanks.htm

Well folks I'm off to bed as I have one more to go. Have a great weekend!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

Ok, thanks quite convinced, but unit 036 has only crew of two in the oob.

Re: Obat15 - Australia
 

In this picture, if you would put in the seats near the door, at least four men could fit in - I don't say it would be comfortable but maybe possible :rolleyes:

Found a handful of forums (Australian) and Tank Net that indicated they might be able to hold two troopers. All agree this never happened. They pretty much indicated it was for spare ammo (Remember we're talking 76mm rounds.), fuel, water, rations etc. One trooper said while serving he came across one crew that had a microwave in their MRV. I suspect that's why the official Army Museum had them as C3 Commander, Gunner and Driver. My picture is from further back and might offer a different perspective maybe. It's also from the FSV.
Pic: Attachment 11802

Regards,
Pat