Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

----- I'm still early into Space Empires IV but I've observed that I'm low on Minerals and nearly at capacity for Organics and Radioactives.
On my planets (Gas Giants) I've been building like my homeworld was set. That is, a ratio of 5:1:1:5 being Mines:Farms:Extraction Plants:Research Facilities.

Maybe I should tone it down even more. My race creation is set at "superior" for all four of these. I've started creating Miner Light Cruisers for an asteroid ring. Those asteroids can be rich! On my Construction Queue list I have begun to slow down my industry. That was a big part of the problem; and maintenance for ships is expensive! I have Hardy Industrialists and superior ship building. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also I've been trading to others like: want:5000 minerals/give 3000 organics and 3000 radioactives.

-----I go to sleep thinking about Space Empires and wake up thinking about Space Empires. I have maintenance around the home that I have been putting off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

-----Gaming can lead to procrastination.

-----Some times , when I'm watching TV I flip the remote upside down and view it as a starship.

-----I'm using my two week vacation from work for Space Empires play and talk. At least I save money that way. I'll travel next time...maybe.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Hi, my name is Fyron and I am a SEaholic...

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

---Hi. My name is Wade and I, too, am a SEaholic. It began with just taunts and recomendations from my peers on forums. I...I wanted to fit in and experience all that SE offered. Now, if I don't have SE for awhile I begin to get...anxious.
I have even begun to celebrate the glories of SE in order to expose others to it...some of you might have noticed.

I'm concerned, yet, eager to see where this path will lead.
I here that the first step is admitting my SEaholism.

-Wade

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Hi, my name is Black Knyght and I'm a Sexaholic... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif



What was that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif



Oh, S.E.aholics !?!?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif



I'm sorry, I'm in the wrong meeting. Bye now..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I came here to eat bunnies and play SE, and I don't see any bunnies!

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I'm not addicted.... I can stop whenever I want!...if and when I choose to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

5 years of near-continuous play isn't an addiction...is it?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Nah, it's dedication, not addiction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

@Wade

I really wouldn't recommend a template approach to building up your worlds. I usually dedicate my worlds to just one or two things (depending on the mineral/organic/rad values), resource poor planets usually get dedicated to research, small/tiny resource poor planets usually end up as storage depots (you need lots of storage to make proper use of 'retro-series'). All planets of small or better usually get a shipyard, moons get either a shipyard or training facility.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I generally build more of whatever resource I'm running a deficit in; over time that tends to come out to a ratio of 6-7:1:2 for me (6:2:2 if I have Organic Manipulation, 6:1:3 if I have something that's rad-intensive like Temporal Knowledge). If I'm running a surplus on everything I build more research or intel as needed.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

-----It is generally accepted that we have a higher level of intelligence and consciousness than the life forms that we eat; yes, including plants. Thus, it would stand to reason that some where in the universe there are life forms with a higher level of intelligence and consciousness than us that might want to eat us.
Unless...they have evolved or developed a biological or technological means of consuming energy directly.
I believe that this will be the future of ours and of others.

-Wade

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

The general arguement for eating animals is their lack of sapience - Ie., lack of awareness of themselves and others as entities.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I used consciousness as a general term. Sapience also comes in varying levels. We humans eat a huge variety of life forms. I argue that many, if not most, of them have a level of sapience; awareness of themselves and others as entities.
*I eat meat also*. I'm just saying that what's out there in space could be quite bad for us. That's why we should strive to develop research, space travel, colonization, and defenses.

Regarding "sapience":awareness of themselves and others as entities: *putting aside all the cultural differences between people and nations*.
Do these life forms, for example, have *any level* of awareness of themselves and others as entities?

Dog, Cat, Cow, Pig, sheep, rat, fish, octopus, squid, horse, monkey, ape(chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutang,etc.), tuna(yes, I know I already put fish), dolphin, whale, crab, snake, lizard, chicken (and other birds, how about parrots?), deer, elephant, turtle...(I guess those are good enough.)

Words like sapience and consciousness are all creations of language. What it all generallizes to is "intelligence level". There will be many life forms with a higher intelligence level than ours. Hopefully they will have advanced to direct energy consumption.

-Wade

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Emotions are certainly possible without sapience.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

The general argument for eating animals is that they taste good, and provide a few nutrients that plants don't.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

“It's easy to quit Space Empires. I've done it hundreds of times.”

- Mark Twain

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Wow. If you read some of the emails that guy got, it really is amazing how many total fools are in the world, thinking the way they do. "Animals have never done anything to hurt you" indeed! What about the people bitten by a dog, mauled by a cougar, killed by a bear, kicked in the groin by a cow? *Yep, that did happen to me* Haven't hurt people...give me a break!

Sorry, I just get a little annoyed by animal rights activists...

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

So...
1. Some humans at some point were attacked by some animals for reasons some humans saw as unprovoked.
2. Therefore all humans, even those never attacked by any animal in any circumstance, have (by virtue of some sort of species self-defense?) the right to kill (and maybe eat, or just eat animals killed by others in some unseen factory somewhere) any animals they want (as long as they aren't owned or protected by some other humans...)?

I think "because they're tasty" is more like the actual reason people decide to eat animals. That, and they don't have to face and kill (or "clean", or even cook) them themselves.

PvK

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

You may just be in the light stages right now. In my PBW 2005 Championship (final) game, I would make mental notes of things I needed to check on next time I had the computer on. And at work, I would think of something and email myself a reminder for the turn that night. And explain how things were going to my wife (who couldn't care less).

*shrug* So, it gets worse! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Well...that actually wasn't what I was saying. I was more pointing out one fallacy in the arguements of some of the people who emailed the guy who ran that site.

Granted, if they weren't tasty people likely wouldn't eat animals http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

However, some people do "face and kill" and clean and even cook them. For example, me. I help to butcher the animal, and have absolutely no problem eating a steak that night.

Animals eat other animals, and a lot more cruelly than people eat animals. After all, we kill them humanely, without any suffering. We're a lot nicer than animal carnivores. I don't see any reason why animals should eat animals, but people shouldn't...??

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Ooh, I dunno about you there across the pond but we here in the Netherlands are having some problems with that..... Right now, a reasonably-sized part of our animal (mainly chicken, pig and cow) products comes from what we call the "bio-industry", which is definitely NOT humane. Chickens get their beaks burnt off upon birth, are raised to become so heavy their feet won't support them any more and get slaughtered when they're under a year old. They're killed by either drowning or gassing them. Cows are placed in crates with a head opening when they're still calves, they get raised to be so fat they suffer from being compressed in such a small space, they regularly suffer from numerous afflictions and them they get slaughtered too, also in a very cruel way. That's why the animal rights activists in my country are absolutely adamant that this trade becomes forbidden.

Now I don't know about you there, but I plainly get sick of stuff like this, and therefore I don't eat meat. Try all you may, I will end my days without ever having consumed a dead animal (barring the few times some part of some animal was hidden in something that looked vegetarian).

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I saw a documentary about pig farming in the Netherlands once. Spends most of the film showing the happy little porkers growing up in their pen, and apart from the bit where they avoid the meat being ruined by a boarish smell, they appeared to do well enough. Then at the end most of them get sent off. It took about 4-5 seconds from being happy little porkers to getting koshered you might say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It was humane I guess. Lets just say it inolved electricity.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I only buy organic and/ or 'cruelty-free' meat at the supermarket. However who knows what I eat when I eat out...

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

One company does something cruelly so now the whole industry is "inhumane?" Flimsy propaganda is all they have going. There are all sorts of valid reasons to be a vegetarian (not so many for veganism, but whatever floats your boat); alarmist propaganda like this isn't one of them.

Note that I am not calling you an alarmist or anything; you are just as much a victim as everyone else.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I don't mean to cause any offense SIU, but what you've been told is a big load of bull****.

Chickens don't have their beaks burned off; how would they eat? It would serve absolutely no purpose. Yeah, they're slaughtered under a year old, but how is that wrong? They're full grown before a year is out, so it makes little economic sense to keep them alive. It sure isn't immoral/inhumane to kill them young. Also, chickens aren't killed by drowning or gassing, they're killed by electrocution since it makes the feathers much easier to remove. They don't feel a thing when you jolt them with thousands of volts.

Speaking as a cattle rancher, someone with knowledge about these things. Cattle most certainly are NOT stuffed in crates shortly after birth, to live there for life. Calves are born, castrated (in a humane manner, trust me on this. They're neutered via constriction of an elastic band. Everything just goes numb) then get an ear-tag identifying them (no worse than a person getting an earring). After that, they live with their mothers on pasture. The pasture is about 50 acres in size, so there's plenty of room. Plenty of grass and water. Or hay and water before the grass is growing. They grow until they're roughly 700 pounds (8 months or so), then they're sold. After that, they go to the feedlot where they're grain-fed for another several months (always with space to move around and do what cows do...which is primarly eat, sleep, and crap) until they're around 1300 pounds, and then they're slaughtered. They are slaughtered via a painless procedure whereby their brain is penetrated by a sharp object, and they die instantly.

Animal rights activists are (in a lot of cases) manipulative in the extreme. For example, it was proven that here in Canada, where they petition for the outlawing of the seal hunt, it was shown that they organized the skinning of a live seal. They then filmed this, and used it as their ammunition to try and outlaw it. I don't know about you, but this sickens me a hell of a lot more than how animals are slaughtered. Sickens me.

I'm not trying to convince you to eat meat, since you seem rather convinced that it's the right thing to do. But you sure wouldn't have survived being a vegetarian back a couple hundred years ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I've participated in the slaughtering of several of our own animals. They're shot in the head and die right away. Sometimes they live to a ripe old age, 14 years or so (cows don't have a long natural lifespan).

The ways people kill animals nowadays is one hell of a lot more humane than how animals kill each other. Sometimes I think people (animal rights activists) are just looking for some cause to get the public upset so they can rake in the cash from donations. In fact, I'm sure that's what some of them are in it for. Now, I'm not saying all are like that, but I'm sure a lot are.

I will remain a proud meat-eating person for all my life. I will never stop eating meat...and enjoy every bite of it.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

----- A compelling hypothetical; not to judge but to offer thought expansion:

I'm an omnivore.
My intellect lets me know many benefits to eating meat. Taste pleasue, high brain energy, better adaptation in case of an extreme environmental condition...

My intellect also allows me to use emotion to empathize with my prey(even if the meat is from a store or restaurant). Sapience and consciousness are just words created that stress our extreme intelligence level above the other life forms that we share this planet with...

Assume a scenario where an alien race of an extreme intelligence level above ours that we share this universe with comes to our humble planet. They too are omnivores and have found us to be a tasty food item. They process us in a very quick and painless way. Indeed, we may not even know the scope of this process or even that it happens; even at the point of death. I doubt many of our food life forms(animals) know what will happen to them as they go about their business in the fields and buildings and water.

This is the nature of things. Even life forms of equal or nearly equal levels of intelligence routinely eat each other. Many have evolved it to a necessity.

If we became aware that these aliens were eating us our number one desire would be that they stop eating us. We also might want them to go away and stop the food processes and infrusructure that they built up around us. We would not care so much how quick and painless the death process was when compared to the process as a whole. Most of the aliens might not even care if they could even be aware of our complaints.
Our food life forms complain in their various ways moments before their death. Cows, pigs, and chickens struggling and screaming in a processing building; fish and other life forms struggling and communicating in various ways in nets and boats.
The aliens would use their own extreme intellect above ours to measure their benefits and emotion. The majority of them would probably continue to consume us as a tasty food item.

Hopefully any aliens that we meet will have advanced enough evolutionary or technologically to direct energy consumption; or simply not find us to be a tasty food item. Hopefully we will have advanced to a level of intelligence, technology, and evolution higher than our competitors when we meet(possibly to direct energy consumption).

When we leave this solar system to colonize others we will find new life forms of lesser intelligence. We will probably find many of them to be tasty food items that we process in a quick and painless way.

These are some things I some times consider that make me think about being a vegitarian. In the end though I am an omnivore.

-Wade

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Not just one single company, there's an entire branch of them out here. Of course, there are also the more humane companies, but there are still companies which treat their animals cruelly.

You might be so humane, but like I said there are companies here which aren't. We don't have the wide open spaces of North America, hence the "bio-industry" which started to emerge after WWII; that way, you could have the largest amount of animals in the smallest amount of space.

This, to me, is on the same level of evil as Nazism.

I understand your reactions, and I won't attempt to convince you to stop eating meat (such efforts are limited to semi-serious discussions with my friends during lunch), or convince you that all of what I heard is true, but some of it is, and personally I see no reason to eat meat. I've been brought up a vegetarian, and I'll die a vegetarian.

(Note: I have not responded to some statements. Please take this as my agreement on this; I have only responded to those statements I did not agree with. I have read your posts and seriously considered them.)

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Compelling is in the eye of the beholder.This is where I start to have suspension of disbelief problems with the scenario. Even if some quality of the universe causes all life forms to use chemically similar forms of DNA, ISTM that the odds are that separate paths of molecular evolution would leave each race full of biochemicals that the other(s) find unpalatable if not toxic. At best, I'd expect us to make potentially useful sources of exotic organic chemicals.

One of my favorite bits of the background color in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri is the incompatible biochemistry between Terran animals and Planet's lifeforms.Our number one desire would be to convince others that it's really happening.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Oh the humanity of it all!

Billions of individual living entities are raised in crowed conditions feed special chemicals to maximize there growth then they are slaughter so that their gestating young can be ripped from the parents carcass just to be used to feed the masses of humans and other animals!!! Many of these living entities are actually eaten while still alive!


SAVE THE PLANTS!
They have a right to live without the cruel treatment of modern farming!






Thought on Aliens eating humans.
1) The chances are that our biology is a compatible food source for an ext-terrestrial is probably very low.
2) We generally do not farm predator animals for food. Not because they don’t taste good, but because it’s dangerous! It’s dangerous enough just raising non-carnivore.
3) The environmental toxins are usually much more concentrated in predator animals.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

--I said *assume* a scenario...as in hypothetical. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

--I said *an* alien race...as in one possibility using a hypothetical assumption. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

--If an alien race is advanced enough then they can make use of chemically different forms of DNA as food. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

--I said *we* as meaning the entire human race. Thus if *we* became aware that these aliens were eating us our number one desire would be that they stop eating us. Others would not nead convincing because *we* all would already know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

--I vaguely remember a documentary about evidence that the US government was using laser scalpals, black helicopters at night, and such to harvest cattle organs and genitilia. This was to do research on the possible effects of radiation in regards to cancer and reproduction in humans. In the mid century there was wide scale atom bomb and radiation tests across wide expansess of several US mid-western states.

-Wade

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I agree, in part at least. I guess my point was that things like that do not happen here in North America, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know what happens in Europe nearly as much. Though I must say I still have my doubts, since governmental regulations are generally very strict when it comes to the treatment of animals. Also I'd ask you; have you seen such plants with you're own eyes, or are you relying on the 'evidence' provided by others? There's an old saying I like; "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."

It may not seem like it, but I do respect your convictions. I may not agree with them, but it is every human's right to choose what they will and will not do, and I have no right to aggressively argue my point of view over and over http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif So I won't! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I too have read and considered your posts, and agree with some, not with others (obviously!).

Arguements should be something like this, statements of beliefs, not shouting/pissing matches. I'm happy everyone here is remaining civil about this, even when it wasn't in any way related to the original topic! Though if anyone did come close to being uncivil, it was probably me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Though I have not seen these processes with my own eyes, I am 100% certain that they occur. Once or twice every year you see them on the news or somewhere else on TV, and staging all that is just ridiculous. Like I said, here in the Netherlands we had to find a way to maximize production with a minimum of land right after WWII.

It may not seem like it, but I do respect your convictions. I may not agree with them, but it is every human's right to choose what they will and will not do, and I have no right to aggressively argue my point of view over and over http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif So I won't! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[/quote]

I never suspected you of not respecting my convictions, and I hope you do not suspect me of not respecting yours.

I too have read and considered your posts, and agree with some, not with others (obviously!).

Arguements should be something like this, statements of beliefs, not shouting/pissing matches. I'm happy everyone here is remaining civil about this, even when it wasn't in any way related to the original topic! Though if anyone did come close to being uncivil, it was probably me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[/quote]

Eh, don't worry, it's nothing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Believe it or not, I actually get a lot of this when I "attempt" to convert my friends to vegetarianism http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Nope, never thought you didn't respect my opinions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Just thought you might suspect me of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Wow, I really can confuse things quickly, eh?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Please reduce the amount of quoted text and nested quotes... It gets really hard to follow (esp. on lower res) with so much extra space wasted between the actual content of the post. Just the words you are responding to will suffice (though they are not usually necessary).

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

So grumpy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

<font color="red">WARNING: The following comments may be seen as immflammatory to select individuals </font>

I by no means intend this as an effort at offense, but having read the many and varied comments posted here I feel compelled to add my own, stating that in my opinion this thread has become an exercise in the innane. With such references to the human condition, sympathy for one's prey, comparisons to Nazism.



<font color="blue">Nazism</font> !?!?!?!?



I'm sorry if my OPINION is deamed offensive to some, but I just couldn't stand to see such pointlessness continue without expressing this feeling. There really are some valid points along the way, but in the majority it really seems like this thread is deteriorating into simple extremist opinions, with little or no basis in fact or experience. Sorry again to whomever this offends.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Ugh...I'm so offended Black_Knyght! How could you say such evil things? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif &lt;---- (Comment completely intended as humorous)

Slightly more seriously, if an opinion hurt a person's feelings, I doubt they'd be here long! Or the internet in general for that matter.

It just so happens I agree with you, and it has become rather innane. Unfortunately, I sometimes like pointless arguements...a sometimes annoying fault of mine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Lets all just eat [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Burger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cake.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cheese.gif[/img] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/egg.gif , drink [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Martini.gif[/img] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Lightning.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Lightning.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Lightning.gif[/img] ...well maybe don't try to drink lightning!

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

BK, I wasn't comparing "sympathy for one's prey" as such with Nazism, but the fact that "animal rights protestors" in Canada skinned a seal themselves to prove that it was evil. That, to me, is as evil as Nazism is.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

<font color="red"> Warring!!! This thread is experiencing topic drift!</font>


I think all the animals, plants and alien food people would be offended by comments made if they hadn’t been eaten.


The above comment was not intended to be offensive to more than .01% of the population. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Wasn’t there a twilight zone show where aliens landed and they carried around a book titled “How to Serve Man”?

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I cannot imagine that "we" would have such a unanimous opinion on *anything*. There are numerous examples of things that "we" know have happened or are happening, which "they" claim never happened or aren't happening, and vice versa. At least one example has already been brought up in this thread. Some people cannot be convinced by even "irrefutable" proof.

I can imagine the existence of people who not only would not oppose this, but would actually support it.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Oh no, North Americans with their wide open spaces would never maximize their profit/cost ratios by doing tremendous things to chickens. Certainly no human would sear off a chicken beak - what reason would there be for that?

. . .

Well, no reason, until they get crammed together so that they start fighting and cannibalizing each other.

excerpt from The Way We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter by Peter Singer and Jim Mason

PvK

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

That's about how I do mine. Even a tiny planet can hold one storage unit. Sometimes, though, when I'm more advanced, I'll use that one spot and put a atmosphere modifier on a tiny planet to get 2 or 3 units on a planet that's been redeveloped. After deleting the modifier, I can put a storage space, an intel unit or a research unit or two or three, depending on what I need. I know it takes awhile to get that far, but when you do, you'll find you'll still have a need for all of those units.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Ungh, not more of the propaganda.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I sure wouldn't believe anything a site called "www.thevegetariansite.com" has to say... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif After all, I'm sure they're totally unbiased. [sarcasm]

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Oh... right... never trust vegetarians... or people who care about the treatment of animals.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

I work in the food development industry and can say with some confidence that the conditions are typically in-between the extremes that have been presented here. There's some good processors that make an effort to keep conditions in their farms reasonable. But with any large-scale operation where costs are a major factor (ie for fast food etc), then the practices become more questionable. Small-scale producers can't compete on cost, so they generally raise for speciality markets (ie organic, high quality stores/restaurants) and treat their animals well.

However, that is really limited to the more tightly regulated markets. You would be shocked at some of the things that go on in the less developed regions of the world. What might make things worse is that many large-scale operations (read: fast food suppliers) are moving to these regions for the cost benefits - which means the animals and laborers will take the brunt.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

How about the New York Times for a corporate-compliant news organ? Carnivore enough? http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/04/national/04CHIC.html Gee, that matches what those untrustworthy vegetarians said... except the vegetarians said the smallest space per chicken was 48 inches.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

It's not that the vegetarians are untrustworthy. It's the perception of bias. It's akin to getting your information on the negative effects of smoking, from the tobacco industry.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

PvK said:
...people who care about the treatment of animals.

Why should I care about them? They only exist to become food, afterall. I don't want to see excessive production waste just because it makes the animals "happier."

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

According to my dad, who was raised on a farm, eight chickens cannot be crammed into an 8x8x8 sized encloser.

Based on my own understanding of the dimensions of a chicken, I doubt you could fit a single chicken in there.

Re: Some Observations...(all are welcomed)
 

Note I didn't say that vegetarians are untrustworthy, I said the website was obviously biased. Big distinction.

I'd also like to point out that I absolutely resent the implication that I don't care about the well-being of animals. I have never once in my life mistreated an animal, no animal. We raise cattle here and they have never been subjected to any inhumane practices. Never. Being a vegetarian doesn't make you superior to us savages who eat meat. And just because people eat meat it doesn't mean they don't care about how animals are treated. It's really too bad typing doesn't allow for emphasis to be applied, or facial expression to be expressed. I think the look on my face and tone of my "voice" would say a lot...

As for what some PETA loving animal hugger from "Compassion over Killing" says, I really don't give a [censored]. In any industry there are bad apples. It doesn't make the entire industry cruel and unjust. And given the way "animal rights activists" act, I wouldn't doubt they did that to the chickens themselves.

Note the word "trimming" when referring to beaks, not burning as has been said. Think of it this way; we castrate animals. That could be said to be akin to "trimming". Yet it is painless and harmless. I can guarantee they aren't yanking the entire beak out of the chicken. It would stress the animal which would cause it to lose weight and not perform as well as it would otherwise.

I would also like to know the definition of "starve". I'd bet it means feeding them a certain diet, not refusing to feed them for days on end. Be reasonable.



As is probably evident, I get a little worked up about stuff like this. Let me tell you something:

Vegetarians are primarily people who have lived in cities all their life, and not been in touch with the real world, outside of cities.

Vegetarians have been raised watching Walt Disney movies, and think that all animals are harmless and nearly the equal to people. They're not, never will be.

Vegetarians would not stand a chance at survival if they were deprived of their "civilized" comforts. If you couldn't go to the grocery store and buy all your organic, non-meat products and you actually had to grow and kill what you eat rather than go buy it, you would eat meat. If you didn't, you'd die. You'd also see that animals are just that; animals. They are not on the same level as a person. That doesn't excuse mistreatment, don't for a minute think that I believe it does. However, death is part of life (bit of an oxymoron there, but hey...). Killing and eating animals does not make people 'evil'. They've lived their life, and don't know there's any other way to live. However they live, as long as they don't live in pain, that's what they're used to. They think it's natural. It is not cruel.