|
ME262 wrong guns?
Hi All
Well this is rather peculiar as no one but a moderator is allowed to answer my post, I guess I feel pretty priveledged, direct line to god you might say, anyway I notice that the ME262-A2B seems to have 2 30mm MK 108 cannon and 2 30mm MK 101 cannon. I believe this might be wrong and that the plane should have 4 30mm MK 108 Cannon. From http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/mk103.html "The MK103/101 was installed in a few Fw 190 ground-attack aircraft (wings), in an experimental Me 262 (nose), the prototype for the Ta 152C-3 (engine), in some Do 335s (engine and wings), and possibly in a handful of Bf 109K fighters (engine)." Regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
the name of the one in the OOBS is "Me 262A-2B", not "ME262-A2B".
from a quick google, I find that the B model was the night fighter, with 2 inclined shrage musak high velocity cannons, which would not be of any use in the game. The thing therefore needs renaming to the Me 262A-2a model, with the low velocity 30mms, second pair ammo a bit higher. will do that now. Cheers Andy |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Because the high velocity cannons were designed for air to air combat?
|
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
no - the low velocity cannons were designed for anti-bomber use, the shells were called "mines" as they had a relatively high HE content despite (relatively) low velocity.
But the shrage musak installation would require to be high velocity for firing up into a bomber's belly, (roughly vertical to the velocity vector of the firer). Cheers |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif I'm not a weapons person so I learn from the different war games that I play and/or own and the people I meet in the forums.
|
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Andy
I had a look at some other aircraft weapons and here is what I turned up, hope it is of interest to you. These links mention that 20mm MG-FF 167 and 20mm MG-151 166 Have AP Ammo. http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/mgffm.html http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/mg151.html These weapons get a penetration value of 2 shouldn't this be 4 like say the hispano 20mm? carried by, Fw 190A-8 121 Fw 190F-8 237 Fw 190F-3 242 Me 210a 901 Me 410B-1903 Bf 109G-2/R1 122 Bf 110D-2 123 Hs 129 B-1 128 Hs 129 B-3/Wa Hs 129B-2 240 Fw 190 D-12 243 Fw 190F-1 236 Fw 190 D-12 243 Ju 87D-8 Stuka 487 Bf 110C 894 Bf 109E 906 Bf 109E-7 907 Bf 109F 908 Bf 109F-2 909 Fw 190A-4/U-3 913 Fw 190R-6 914 Fw 190F-8/R-1 915 Fw 190F-9/Pb1 916 Fw 190F-9/Pb2 917 Bf 110C-4/B 895 Bf 110C-7 896 Bf 110E-2 897 Bf 110NF 898 Hs 129 B-2/R-4 900 Quotes from http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm 30mm MK-101/103 "Various AP rounds were used, but the most effective was the Hartkernmunition, which had a penetrating core of tungsten carbide sheathed in a light-alloy shell with a sharply-pointed profile. This could penetrate 75-90 mm / 300 m / 90 degrees (depending on the type of armour)" Previous Version 6 of the game had the penetration of 9 now 4 in Winspww2. Carried by Hs 129 B-1 128 For interest you may want to substitute some of the 30mm MK-108 168 carried by these for 30mm MK-101 169 Fw 190F-8 237 Bf 109G-2/R1 122 Fw 190 D-12 243 Bf 110NF 898 3.7cm BKannon 207 "It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees" Previous version 6 of the game had penetration 14 now 5 in WinSPWW2, shouldnt it be 14? Carried by Ju 87G-1 Stuka 120 Ju 88P-2 234 5cm Bord Kannon 208 Previous version 6 of the game had penetration 16 now 7 in WinSPWW2, Should be at least 9 as same ammo as pak 50. If firing tungsten shot should be 15. Carried by Me 410A-1/U-4 902 Ju 88P-4 235 7.5cm BKannon 209 "The fully-automatic BK 7,5 with a 12-round rotary magazine. This could penetrate 132 mm / 500 m / 90 degrees" Previous version 6 of the game had penetration 18 now 12 in WinSPWW2,should have penetration of 13 not current 12 as same ammo fired as the PAK 40. If firing tungsten shot should be 17. Carried by Ju 88P-1 233,4,5 209 Hs 129 B-2/R-4 Hs 129 B-3/Wa 129 ? Hs 129 B-2/R-4 900 Although the game uses 30mm MK-101 maybe this should be substituted with 30mm MK-103 which had better ROF. See http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/mk103.html Best regards Chuck |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
We'll look into this when time permits
Don |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
The penetration value of the guns carried on the following planes/guns should not be adjusted from 2 to 4 to reflect parity with the 20mm Hispano. The plane/gun combos mentioned carried HE shells designed for breaking up Allied Bombers. These rounds were incredibly low velocity by comparison with very limited amounts of explosive designed for fragmentation and causing fires. They were notoriously poor at penetrating armor. By comparison the 20mm Hispano round had incredible muzzle velocity (on a par with .50 M1 & M2) and basically no HE component (mostly just phosphorous tracer type Incediary). Also keep in mind that even though AP ammo was available for some of these weapons it was used in very limited roles when aircraft were being used exclusively for Air-to-Mud missions. Lastly aircraft weapons had no round select option. The magazine or belt fed weapons had a homogeneous not heterogeneous mix of ammo. Therefore a plane shouldn't have a magazine of 35 HE rounds and 5 AP rounds. One or the other, basically for all intents and purposes never AP rounds except in the case of unique tank buster planes or tank buster weapon loadouts. As a final note I would point out that pilots despised flying with their guns configured with AP ammo as that meant that engaging with other planes was going to be dangerously stupid and engaging other planes is what a plane does.
Quote:
|
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
From what I've found on plane loadouts the ordinary one was about 1:4 or 1:3 API/T to HE for general purpose.
|
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi scJazz
Thanks for your interest, What you say is true for the 30mm MK108 but less applicable to the early German 20mm cannon and not really relevant to the later war German 20m Cannon. If you have a look at the tables in the reference I supplied above, here it is again for easy reference, http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm We can see in the first two tables that the hispano fired the 20x110 round with a muzzle velocity (MV) of 860/830 m/sec the MG 151/20 cannon fired the 20x82 round with a MV of 720/800 m/sec However the German MG-FF and MG-FF/M fired the 20x80RB round with MV of 585/585/700 m/sec. This site http://www.bf109.com/armament.html Gives the MG-FF(early war licence built oerliken see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_FF_cannon ) a MV of 600 as fired from the ME-109. MG-FF was replaced by the MG-FF/M beginning summer 1940 (Bf 109E-4 onward) firing the same round but with a better MV of 700 m/sec Mind you the 257 gm weight of the Hispano round compares well with the german rounds 182 gm and 205 gm. I dont know how the SPCAMO determines AP pen but the German guns and the Hispanos performaces dont look that dissimilar to me. Certainly all the numbers required are readily available in the references I mentioned. It is correct that the thin walled Minengeschoss shells had poor AP performance but a very much larger payload of HE. See %HE content in http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm ie the Hispano is 8 % HE and the Minengeschoss is 22% ie the German shell has nearly three times the HE content of the Hispano shell. This could be seem as justification for giving the german guns a higher HE kill than the Hispano. Also from http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm "The German cannon were not exclusively loaded with Minengeschoss, but used them mixed with older-type HEI-T shells (retained because, unlike the M-Geschoss, they could carry a tracer) and later some API rounds as well, in varying proportions." No doubt plenty AP if on a ground attack mission. Also see this site which gives detailed descriptions of the various recommended mixes used by the germans in there ammunition belts ie mixed HE and AP http://www.geocities.com/capecanaver...n/fgun-am.html So Marek_Tucan would seem to be correct here. Best Regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Ya my comment on homogeneous ammo mixes was a mix up. I was remembering something totally different for that part. I'm going to review the info in those sites and consider this some more but I still say that the AP qualities of the german 'tater-tosser shells (what we referred to these weapons as in Aces High II and Warbirds) is still far inferior to the 20mm Hispano/M2. More later...
|
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
I thought those links looked familiar. Admittedly I haven't placed Aces High or Warbirds in awhile but the Nildram site is used as a references in AH and I'm fairly certain that the designer plays.
If I remember correctly the arguement for better AP performance for the 20mm Hispano is that it has a better muzzle velocity and better ballistic properties so that it retains its velocity. While the muzzle velocity of the german 20mm and 30mm are not incredibly bad their ballistic properties are and they suffered fairly steep velocity drop off. In Aces High II where all the planes you mentioned are modeled you don't go firing the 20/30mm guns at a target beyond 400m unless you have zero deflection while pulling zero Gs on a totally unsuspecting target and even then you have to go so nose high that you can't see the target. On the other hand shooting stuff up with a Typhoon or even better... the F4U-1C (4 x 20mm M2s with huge pile of ammo) is rediculously easy out to 700m and not so tuff out to 1000m. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi scJazz
The "better ballistics" of the Hispano should in the game be modeled by the range of the gun being longer than the german equivalant weapon, not by having a better penetration value. The penetration value of 4 is for range point blank where not ballistics but weight of shot and Muzzle velocity (MV) are the main factors. So the argument should really be is the MV/weight combination of the MG 151 and Hispano so different to justify dropping a penetration point? probably not. Certainly before the version 6 upgrade the designers had them the same. Best Regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Range is completely irrelevant for class 11 aircraft guns.
- They use HE-AP values (see mobhack on class 11 wepons for details) which is range-neutral not "The penetration value of 4 is for range point blank where not ballistics but weight of shot and Muzzle velocity (MV) are the main factors" - They are fired at 2 fixed ranges in the aircraft strafe/bomb animation sequence, or at several points at the same range as area fire in the MBT circling gunship sequence. Therefore, apart from making sure that the range is at least these values, range is an irrelevance for air cannons on the game engine. Cheers Andy |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Andy thanks for your reply,
Ok I see because the planes are firing at the targets at 250 and 200 metres the balistics aren't relevent, fair enough. However I would have thought that at this close range the same would go for accuracy. ie Hispano or MG151 both on the button at 250m? I notice that SPCAMO and I agree on this in v6 of the game when both weapons had an accuracy of 8, however in the v7 rework of aicraft the accuracy of the hispano becomes 21 and the 151/20 becomes 14, shouldnt they have the same accuracy if we are firing them at a target that is so close? Not forgetting of course that most in-wing weapons are aimed so that there fire converges on a spot about 250m or so in front of the aircraft. Best regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
you could make a case for accuracy, but given the fixed short engagement ranges, it is unlikely to make much noticeable difference in the game. FC and RF is as likely to make any differences, and the 3 have a complex interweaved relationship that is difficult to get "right". Then throw in pilot experience as well.
I think the plane cannons are fine in game terms. But if you feel like making some range-test scenarios and trying out different data, feel free to do so. Cheers Andy |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Andy
Thanks for the reply, Ive begun testing and turned up some stuff you'll be interested in. But before I proceed Ive got a couple of questions Would you be able to tell me how does suppression effect Acc, FC and RF? and -really just because I find it interesting,- Why did someone take the trouble to increase all the accuracy and range values of all the aircraft weapons in the game when it doesnt make any difference to anything? Best regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Supression will tend to lower accuracy.
Quote:
Cheers Andy |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Andy
Those changes came into effect on 30th August 2004, that would be about 1 year 11 months ago. Yes thats right I would also imagine that the accuracy changes would "affect things" as you say. As you agree that at the short ranges concerned the guns should actually all have the same accuracy and they currently dont, wouldnt it be safest to just give them all the same accurracy? as they used to have until DOS v7 of the game? Obviously I am happy to supply all the relevant weapon numbers, unit numbers, edit oobs or whatever if that helps. I guess we still dont know why the OOB design team made these, as it would appear now, inappropriate accuracy changes? Best Regards chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Andy has already said.."...it is unlikely to make much noticeable difference in the game." and "I think the plane cannons are fine in game terms. "
Now, if you're happy to tinker with the OOB's then that fine.. be my guest, that's what MOBHack was included for but you don't seem to want to do this, what you want is for US to do this when we don't see the need to do so. This is very simple. We have no plans to alter the existing OOB's in any way in the forseable future. OK ? We have an WinSPMBT update planned for the late fall-early winter then........who knows? I do know neither Andy or I will be digging through WinSPWW2 OOB's changing air cannon stats we don't think are a problem so PLEASE just give this a rest. Don |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Don
OK fair enough, you and Andy do indeed deserve a rest after porting the game to Windows. For my part Ive identified a lot of faults in the OOBs of a similar nature to the Bren gun carrier and panzergrenadier "problems" that you have fixed in this latest patch. I guess I wont post these until after youve put the SPMBT update into place? Best Regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Don
I am still looking at aircraft accuracy ect but I have a question about the less contentous aspect of my post. In my second post in this thread I pointed out that the German ground attack aircraft with 30mm, 37mm, 50mm and 75mm Cannon have had their tungsten ammunition removed. Obviously they dont make much sense without this ammunition. I wonder if this is because it has been decided that these rounds were in fact unavailable or maybe this is still being decided or something that missed the patch like the revised 3 inch mortar carrying bren gun carrier? Best regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
The game system uses HE AP kill for air guns (times number of AP as a multiplier of cannons).
Therefore there is absolutely no point in putting a tungsten AP round (and simply upping the HE-AP would lead to mass destruction of all "splash" hits). The system SSI decided on works OK for multiple HMG, 20mm cannon etc. It does not really work well for flying gun type tank killing planes - but there were precious few of those in any case. If they had been wonder weapons - the warring nations would likely have made more of the things, methinks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Cheers Andy |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Andy
Only one nation was faced with tens of thousands of well armoured fast tanks and they made most of these weapons. They arnt wonder weapons nor am I saying they are. What I am saying is that they are underrated in the game wich you agree with. However you are arguing that game mechanics prevents the weapons getting there correct pen values, but im not so sure. To be exact there are 4 of these weapons in 30mm 37mm 50mm and 75mm calibres mounted in about 13 different planes. However after v6 of the game they all had there HE/Ap kill factors reduced to the current, incorrect low values. These weapons did play a large part on the eastern fornt. Heres a quote from http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen9.htm but please read the entire article. "Rudel's squadron of nine tank-busting Ju-87 G-1 was assigned to support of the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf". On the first day of the Operation Citadel, during his first mission, Rudel knocked out four Soviet tanks and by the evening, his score grew to twelve" I did some tests I used a 7.5mm Bcannon in a JU88 with HE AP Kill reset from 13 to 17. I shot at 12 KV tanks each tank had its 6 adjacent hexes occupied by infantry or size 4 trucks (half half). Result, no casualties and no trucks damaged in the adjacent hexes, some rare pinning. So Im not sure what you mean by "mass destruction"? I repeated the test with the adjacent hexes filled with more KV, again no damage to adjacent tanks, some rare buttoning. It would appear to me that increasing the HE/Ap kill factor to the correct values doesnt cause "mass destruction". Also something else that doesnt make sense to me, if its no problem to have the 7.5 Bcannon at a HE/AP kill of 13 then why cant you change thr 3.7 Bcannon to its correct value of 14? If the "mass destruction" of 13 is acceptable for the 7.5 Bcannon why is the "mass destruction of 14 not acceptable for the 3.7 Bcannon? I have gone to mobhack and for the 75mm BKannon given it a sabot penetration of 17 and sabot range of 25 and changed the HE kill and HE penetration to 0. I then put this into a ju88, unit 934, (class 243 "ground attack") for this unit I changed the HE value to 1. changing it to 0 unfortuneatley removes the unit from the bombardment screen. If the target is correctly identified as armour it will fire the sabot round. However it seems that a poorly aquired target will be shot at by the "default" HE round. So maybe very close to a workable solution. Would you be able to tell me the diferences between the two classes? 44 and 243? Ive read the help which doesnt tell me a whole lot It appears there are two good approaches either simply increase the HE/AP kill value to the correct values or possibly with some work, allocate the sabot ammo. Best Regards Chuck |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
You have to fill the same hex with other vehicles.
|
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
And try it with other armored vehicles that have less armor (in the 1-5 range) around it and in its own hex and with open topped vehicles around it and in its own hex (HT's especially). I've no idea what will happen but only trying out KV's as armored targets won't suffice as a test.
Narwan |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Narwan
Heres the test, The 7.5 bcannon set to HE pen of 17 and HE kill of 1. Shoot at 10 Kvs 2 planes for each hex and *4 for no of guns. I have a jeep a bren gun carrier and an infantry squad sharing each hex with the KV, no damage to infantry, no damage to jeeps 1 bren damaged but it may have been a target. 4 Kvs with one or 2 star damage 2 immobilised. Now run the same test with HE pen of 0 and He kill of 0 and sabot pen of 17 and sabot range of 25 and again the bren the jeep and the infantry basicly untouched but the KV are pretty much all destroyed! So HE pen of 17 seems very different to Sabot pen of 17. Would someone be so kind as to confirm this? I would suggest that the guns in question (weapons 207 208 209 and 168/169) have their HE pen and HE kill set ot 0 and the correct sabot values added making them the tank busters they should be, because at the moment they are pretty useless. (probably any planes carrying these weapons should reside in class 243 "ground attack") The only down side I can see is of course more work for the programmers, because there still needs to be the 1 HE round allocated to the plane so that it appears in the bombardment window. But even with this left as is the planes work much better with the sabot allocated. So to address Andys concerns there is no "mass destruction" and the plane will fire the sabot round at armour. Best regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
There is NO difference between aircraft classed 44 or 243. 243 was added to allow OOB designers the luxury of splitting their aircraft if they so desired. Both classes do the same job. Don |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Quote:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gifYou ran one test with one weapon and think you've got this all figured out but you don't. "Sabot" is only available to weapons used in weapon slot one so your ju-88 test worked just dandy becasue in that case that weapon is used in slot 1 Please look at this list users of weapon ID 207 3.7cm BKannon: 120 - Ju 87G-1 Stuka : Slot 2 dates: 06/43-12/46 <font color="brown">234 - Ju 88P-2 : Slot 1 dates: 09/43-12/46 </font> 234 - Ju 88P-2 : Slot 2 dates: 09/43-12/46 users of weapon ID 208 5cm Bord Kannon: <font color="brown">235 - Ju 88P-4 : Slot 1 dates: 09/43-12/46</font> <font color="brown">902 - Me 410A-1/U-4 : Slot 1 dates: 09/43-12/45</font> users of weapon ID 209 7.5cm BKannon: 129 - Hs 129 B-3/Wa : Slot 3 dates: 05/44-12/46 <font color="brown">233 - Ju 88P-1 : Slot 1 dates: 09/43-12/46</font> users of weapon ID 168 30mm MK-108: 122 - Bf 109G-2/R1 : Slot 3 dates: 03/43-12/46 <font color="brown">124 - Me 262A-2a : Slot 1 dates: 10/44-12/46</font> 124 - Me 262A-2a : Slot 2 dates: 10/44-12/46 237 - Fw 190F-8 : Slot 3 dates: 09/44-12/46 243 - Fw 190 D-12 : Slot 2 dates: 01/45-12/46 898 - Bf 110NF : Slot 3 dates: 01/41-12/45 users of weapon ID 169 30mm MK-101: 128 - Hs 129 B-1 : Slot 3 dates: 03/43-12/46 There are 12 different aircraft on that list of the weapons you wanted changed ( two aircraft use the same weapon in two different slots) . 5 use those weapons as first slot weapon and 7 do not so if anyone just trotted off and made that change you suggested nearly 60% of those aircraft would have useless guns. Totally and utterly USELESS guns. You should have tested that. You've had over 12 weeks since you posted that "test" and if your recommendations were followed any aircraft using those weapons in any slot other than weapon slot one is not even " firing plasticine" they are firing air becasue the game needs to see sabot ammo in the SABOT ammo slot to fire SABOT AMMO and there is no such ammo slot for weapons 2, 3 and 4.......is there ? So what would those guns be firing ?? NOW do you understand why we don't use SABOT ammo for aircraft or anything else except a main weapon ? OK, what's "plan B" ?? Don |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Quote:
OK, aside from http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm have you got any other source that backs those penetration figures up? Don |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Hi Don
This forum has pictures of the 30 mm rounds penetration of the side armour of KV tanks the KVs usually have side armour around 80 mm. http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...127&page=4 also from http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gus...story/aoa.html "Although limited to only 30 rounds, this turned out to be a very effective anti-tank weapon, especially when firing Hartkernmunition with a tungsten penetrating core. This projectile penetrated up to 42–52 mm of armour at a distance of 300 m and a striking angle of 60 degrees. In tests, the combination of the Hs 129B and MK 101 was very accurate, some of this being attributed to additional side area of the ventral fairing acting as a keel" not sure if this is correct but using notional thickness = real thickness/cos(angle) gives 45/.5 ie about 90mm, a match. Plan B would be to put the tungsten firing weapon in slot 1 for the planes where it is in another slot. After all they are tank killers. For the two planes with two tungsten firing cannon squeeze them both into slot one and double the ammo. Similar compromises exist elsewhere in the game. Plan C see how the correct AP values work when put into the weapons AP penetration field instead of the sabot penetration field. This is just what Im thinking. If either of these approaches is a non goer please advise. Ill Mobhack these type of changes and see how it goes. Best Regards Chuck. |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
1) This would not work for any aircraft with more than 1 cannon, as the game code uses the AP ammo number as the No of cannons multiplier. And that works for HE ammo, and nothing else.
2) Even if we went for the idea, then every scenario (including those inside user campaigns) would need to be checked and these planes (if found) adjusted to the new data scheme. And that is a total and utter pain, for a trivial little thing in the great scheme of things. Plus - all the non-Camo scenarios, user campaigns, saved games and so on out there would be unaffected, and we would probably get end-user bug reports on those. We have done this sort of data massage exercise before, and we will only do it now if it is something worth doing. You can blame it all on the original SSI programmers, who had to squeeze a quart into a pint pot back in the days of 3086 PCs with 1MB RAM. (My bet is that there was originally only HE and AP in the SP1 game, then late in development (or even after the first version was released?) someone decided to add a byte each for sabot and HEAT ammo, tacked onto weapon 1 as a quick fix "kludge", and there was no extra 2 bytes added per weapon slot in the same array of ammo data because all the data (OOBS and scenarios) was in place already, which then later on necessitated the 222 HEAT kludge for e.g. panzerfausts in rifle sections. They did not want to do a "data massage" of the entire set back then - and having done so ourselves a few times now, we don't want to do it either, unless absolutely necessary) Cheers Andy |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Quote:
Moving the gun to slot 1 means all the problems Andy mentioned come into the issue so that's not going to happen Quote:
That is why we use the HE slot and use the HE pen for aircraft weapons Don |
Re: ME262 wrong guns?
Not to worry Chuck. We're looking into it. Don |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:08 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.