Holy Power
 

Can we have holy power for pretenders please. It seems nonsensical that priests have more holy power than their Gods. That priests can bless while their Gods cant. What is the rational for that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif If its because they are not really Gods then the priests shouldn't have any power either. If the bless strength is based on belief then bless from God should be as powerful if not more so than priests.

Re: Holy Power
 

It's a game design decision. I suppose there could be an option to allow it though. That would help a bit with the temple getting earthquaked at turn 3 thing.

Re: Holy Power
 

My take on the subject is this:

Blessing is based on belief and adherance to holy scriptures, learning, rituals, etc. Those beliefs are focused on the Pretender god. The pretender god's magical skills represent what powers/strength the god can both use personally, as well as instill upon his followers (after all you cannot give power that you yourself do not posess).

Now how would a pretender god be able to bless his followers with the strength of his faith/belief in..... himself? This is exactly why a pretender god needs his followers... to both spread his word (preaching), build temples in his name, and perform holy(or unholy) rituals and blessings with the strength of their faith and belief.

So in my opinion both from a design standpoint and a lore/conceptual standpoint not giving Pretender gods a 'holy/unholy' magic choice makes sense.

Again this is all just my perspective on the subject... hope that I offered some useful input.


Resok

Re: Holy Power
 

That makes sense. I can instill power of belief in my followers but I cant bless myself and gain abilities due to beliving in the godhood of myself. After all, Im a "pretender" at this point (but shhhhh dont tell my followers that)

Re: Holy Power
 

That's the main difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. In Catholicism you need priesthood to mediate between you and your God. In Protestantism you have a direct link to God, hence the blessings you receive come directly from God. The problem with applying Catholic model to this situation is that this God is directly present, hence no mediation of catholic level required. You don't need a Pope if you have a life God walking in your midst. So the expectation will be of blessing coming directly from God. It's like Jesus asking his apostles to perform miracles, instead of him, because he hasn't ascended yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Holy Power
 

Heh speaking about religion...I find it hard to believe that how can the millions on the planet believe in something like "God". There is no such thing as "God". Everything what is related to religion is pointless if you ask me. My whole family is catholic, but I cannot believe in anything what is not existing. This is my personal opinion of course, and my family cannot accept my opinion in this topic. I think that they are not rational enough.

PS. Sorry for going OT, but I had to write down my thoughts about this, since it was mentioned.

Re: Holy Power
 

Being religious is being irrational by definition. All leaps of faith are irrational because they are not built on rational analysis. Not believing in God and not believing in religion are different things. Denying existence of God/gods is as irrational as believing in It/them because you cant prove either way (The most logical proofs of Gods existence, Ontological of St.Anselm and Geometrical of Spinoza, are still extremely problematic).
But we digress http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif .

Re: Holy Power
 

Id gladly argue all of you guys points in any genre you wish (scientific, mathematic, worth, science is a religion) but lets not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
It would endanger a perfectly good thread.

Re: Holy Power
 

IIRC it goes a little like this:
Man: Prove to me that you exist.
GOD: I refuse to prove my existance, because proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.
Man: So don't you think the bable fish is a dead give-away?
GOD: Oh, that's right.
*God promptly vanishes in a puff of logic*
*Man goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed in the next zebra crossing*

Re: Holy Power
 

Actually, I'd be happy if pretenders could build temples.

Re: Holy Power
 

I agree. That's thematical enough...

Re: Holy Power
 

I think (thematically) every commander should be able to build every building.
I mean, just because you aren't a mage doesn't mean you suddenly have no idea what a library is, and each blueprint for the construction of one simply evaporates in your hands.

Re: Holy Power
 

I have to agree that building a temple makes sense.
But then Im not sure why it takes a mage to build a lab, so as long as thats true then a priest building a temple makes sense I guess.

Re: Holy Power
 

It would make sense that a priest would need to consecrate the temple before it functions a temple.

Labs as well. They're not just libraries. Items and gems can be transported between them. Mages can only cast ritual spells there. There's obviously something magic going on there. So it makes sense to need a mage to supervise and do the magical part of construction.

Essentially both buildings have supernatural effects and need someone with the right type of supernatural abilities to create.

Re: Holy Power
 

Makes sense, but then again I believe many religions on earth would believe that something built directly by their god is sacred. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

EDIT: What the hex am I trying to say?

Re: Holy Power
 

Agreed. Allowing the pretender to build temples would make sense.

How about temple and lab building spells to go with the fort building spells?

Re: Holy Power
 

As far as the pretender building the temples... I suppose it would make sense. My take on possibly why they cannot is the symbolism of your followers being the ones who build and devote a temple to you as a pretender god.

Along those lines of thinking it makes sense that a pretender god cannot build temples. After all a god that noone believes in building a temple won't make people believe in him. However if a loyal follower of the same pretender god builds it, it's a sign of his devotion and faith in his pretender god. Something built by 'god' may be sacred... but gods do not build temples, their followers build them to honor the god. 'Gods' do not build a temple to try to sway the people to believe in him... a god's existance and strength, and the fervor and devotion of his followers.

These are of course just theories about what the developers might be thinking based on the blurbs of backstory and mechanics in Dominions 2.


Resok

Re: Holy Power
 

Here's my idea:

It would be interesting if the pretender could build temples and that these temples would be more powerful... called great temples. Also it should be where only 3 of these great temples can exist at one time on the map. If the pretender trys to build a fourth temple the oldest great temple is destroyed.

Re: Holy Power
 

Follower thats stronger than his/her god, is a problematic proposition in itself, because no god will suffer such subjects (and we have many of those in Dominion). But follower thats more holy than his god is just nonsensical.
The priests dont build temples. They make other people build them. 'Build Temple' is just a command a priest gives people. Along the same lines, god doesnt build its temple but can command others to build it. Gods tell people what to do. Thats their function.

Re: Holy Power
 

You forget, these aren't real gods. Maybe their seeking immortality and godhead leaves them spiritually barren. You can't believe you are the one and only true god if you know that you have to fight your way to get there.
Ultimately the Pretender Gods are not enviable beings. They don't have the luxury of faith, they must wage war and commit atrocities and lie and mislead people. And the seeking of godhead itself shows how greedy and selfish they are, or how arrogant they are.

Re: Holy Power
 

I'd love to see an "Evil Pope" or "Traitorous Bishop" pretender, who kills his God but retains his followers. Perhaps he could secretly banish a Ghost King, but claim to be possessed. That way, he'd retain his holy levels...

Re: Holy Power
 

You just described The Old Testament God (read the first commandment) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif . If the people think they are gods and can work miracles in their name then they are real gods. Or else how do you know that a god is the real god? Monotheistic Gods destroy all opposition, while polytheistic gods fight but coexist. In case of Dominions they are clearly monotheistic gods, so they most certainly see themselves as one true God.

Re: Holy Power
 

But there's an obvious distinction made between the True God and the Pretender Gods. It seems like the Pretender Gods know they aren't real Gods (alot of the chassis have the whole "Being so powerful the only thing left to seek is godhood") and the plotline details that they must destroy their opposition in order to BECOME the One True God. It sounds to me like they're just powerful mortals struggling to become something more. To be that powerful and to still want more, and to be willing to kill thousands of others to achieve that goal belies that they have little faith at all. I think the priests work their holy magic based solely on their faith in these supposed "gods."

And the Gnostics would say there's a very good reason why that sounded like the Old Testament god.

Re: Holy Power
 

I think thats just a logical oversight, no offence. You can explain their ability to bless with high moral as based on faith, maybe. But if the god is not real, you cant explain their ability to Smite foes as based on faith alone.

Re: Holy Power
 

I'll say priests use their connection to the divine while pretenders are trying to become one with it. Whatever connection a pretender has is being used to spread dominion.

Re: Holy Power
 

Letting pretenders build temples is a great idea.

Re: Holy Power
 

My first post here.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif You could also base the temples level on the priests level, although this would penalise nations with lesser priests. Perhaps the pretender could somehow empower a priest temporarily at a gem cost to build temples greater than their level, or the prophet can build greater temples.

As for the earlier OT religion posts I would like to mention a website called Internet Infidels where all manner of religious, philosophical, moral/ethical and scientific debates abound. It's my favorite website and I'm Ubercat there as well. Most of the members are healthily skeptical, but it's debating the fundamentalists which is the most fun. The URL is iidb.org. If it's against the rules here to plug other websites, then I apologise.

-Ubercat