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Polish OOB
I found something in polish OOB
1. Formation 392 , 393 and 394 have a wz.29 cars but this is a bug wz.29 are in his own formations Hevy AC so in Formations with normal armoured Car should be wz.28 and Pegout M1918 and and ford Tf-c in in 1930. Platon consist from three vehicles - Armored car with gun - Armored car with HMG - Armored car with HMG Company named in Poland Szwadron consist from two Platons and commander vehicle with gun In 1932 ford tf-c are retired , Pegout M1918 was moved to police units and armoured cars based only on wz.28 what than was rebuild to wz.34 standard last wz.28 serve to 12/1936. First wz.34 rebuild from wz.28 apear in this formation in 4/1934 and to the fall of poland this formation based on Wz.34 armoured cars. Poland don't have a special designation for armored cars with guns (this names wz.34a for example) is wrong should be wz.34 ( "a" letter was added by germans) 2. Bombers formation should start in 1/30 not in 1/37 because Fokker and Goliath aircrafts are not avibles. 3. Bofors 37mm Gun we have a bug too was in two versions wz.36 and wz.37 for tanks with small improvments of performance. weapon 013 should be named 37mm wz.36 L45 not L40 see in Swedish OOB that is the same gun weapon , 014 should be removed because 015 represents tanks version of bofors 37mm gun. Now we need only a improvment of date in unit and formation first this guns apear in polish army in 1936 because is named (Wzor 1936 what means Model from 1936 year) see http://derela.republika.pl/weap2.htm#37 4. 40mm Bofors AA gun First this guns came to polish army from Sweden in September 1936 than were made in polish fabric so date need corection polish gun has his own missing winter camuflage see icon 2807. You can too remove weapon 017 2 pdr AA-Gun because tis is bofors 40mm represents by weapon 025. Why 017 has worse performance I don't know? 5. Tankettes should be remowed a word (cz lek) from TK-3 and TKS that means Light Tank and is not need. The letter (m) for tankettes with 20mm gun is not need too , vehicles with this gun has no special designaton I things (m) was added by germans. Next icons for tankettes 425 , 426 , 427 are wrong TK-3 has TKS icon TKS with 20mm gun has TK-3 icon with HMG. Last thing weapons 231 and 232 should be named (7.92 wz.30 XXX because CKM means in polish HMG and not more that is not own name) wz.30 CMG is good labeled. TKS were armed in 7.92 wz.30 BMG only short time. First models of this tankette were produced in 6/1933 with wz.30 BMG but after 4/1934 vehicles from fabric were equiped in 7.92 wz.25 BMG and what were in units were rebuild to this wz.25 BMG to the 12/1935 6. Bicycle units Formation 429 should be named Company not platon and units 750 and 751 has no diferences in weapons why I don't know? In Romunian OOB P-23 has a wrong icon from P.Z.L P-24 units 341 and 375 but in game are aviable romunians P-23 icons see icons 2976-2978 |
Re: Polish OOB
I'll look into this
Don |
Re: Polish OOB
Blaz
I've reviewed this and fixed the OOB where applicable but there are a couple of things I didn't do I didn't change the "a" designation from the Wz.34 armoured cars with guns. I'm betting the Germans added that so people would know at a glance what version...gun or non gun they were dealing with and that's why I'm going to leave that in. and... "....weapon , 014 should be removed" ".....You can too remove weapon 017" You must be very, very careful removing weapons. We found that out the hard way. They may not be used by the units in the OOB as it's written now but the units in older scenarios *MAY* be using them and the only way to find them is the hard way....when someone complains they tried to fire a unit and nothing happend. In this OOB there are plenty of free weapons slots so leaving an old "unused" one in is not an issue Don |
Re: Polish OOB
Quote:
The guns where still owned by Bofors while evaluated during 1936. The actual contract where signed April 16:th 1936. The first 10 37mm guns where shipped February 17:th 1937 while the first 40mm where sent on June 22 1937, both shipments delivered by a freighter named Egon. Weapon 17 is the Vickers Pom-Pom, in the Polish brigade. Cheers /John T. Who spent the time not updating OOB's reading through Swedish export permits in the Foreign office archive. |
Re: Polish OOB
Thanks for intresting
you have a better information about delivery 37mm and 40mm guns from Sweden. I found another intresting informations abuot this gun. Polish buy in Sweden a license for both guns and made in factories. Polish production guns 37mm and 40mm was in prewar time sell to UK and 37mm to Romania. Polish Carpathian Brigade during fights in Tobruk in 1941 recive from british hands a polish made 37mm bofors guns what were buy in poland by British in prewar times. |
Re: Polish OOB
The 2pdr gun has lower performance as it should, it isn't Bofors 40mm but Vickers 40mm pom-pom using less powerful ammunition.
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Re: Polish OOB
I understud
I prewar polish army this gun 40mm Vickers was used only on ships and river monitors. Wasn't in land forces corect label should be 40mm Vickers or something because we don't use pounds for caliber of guns only metric units. But in post september campaign forces in England polish soliders use 40mm Bofors british version in OOB is a bug because they has this old vickers guns as a standalone and on trucks |
Re: Polish OOB
Don can you see too a 7TP and 9TP tanks
especialy radio code all 7TP single turent has a radio ( a roof in the rear of turent) so I thing they should has radio 90 not 20 what is your opinion? Can you see too the armour in this tanks many say on polish forum 7TP tanks family has a not good modeled armour? here is the source but how can i that renumbered to armour points http://wio.ru/tank/poland.htm I found in OOB we have wrong lbm for PZL P-37A Los the foto represents version B with double empennage. Here is a good and corect photo of A version http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4...347a8df.th.png |
Re: Polish OOB
Blaz
What's wrong with the armour on the 7tp ? That link doesn't work. Just spelling out what it is and what you think it should be and why works best. I do not see a problem with the 2 all around for this vehicle we have now I'll talk with Andy about the radio I fixed the PIC Don |
Re: Polish OOB
1 Attachment(s)
Explanation of the of this phenomen why 7TP has too weak armour need a comprasion with another tanks from the Vickers 6-Ton (Mk.E) family like rusian T-26 and vickers tanks in another cauntrys service and as I saw we have a mess with this.
First I think a best page with story of Vickers 6-Ton http://derela.republika.pl/vae.htm First lets see in polish OOB unit 449 that is Vickers E Mk.A buy in GB by polish Goverment. That is a orginal british version only a HMG are polish wz.25 So how looks this tanks has 3 people crew , can carry 6 soliders on armour , his weight is 10, speed 12 because 35km/h:3 give 11,6666... so speed is round up . Radio only 22 because has no radio. FC=1 and RF=1 Survability=3 like for this tanks class and the moust important thing the armour hull: front and sides - 13mm, rear - 8mm ,turret (both single-turret and twin-turret)13mm all around top and bottom - 5mm so is HF=2 , HS=2 , HR=1 , TF=2 , TS=2 , TR=1 , Top=1 So I have a proposition change TR =2 because turent has armour all the same. ROF for MG version is 9. I thing this parameters should good describe a standard UK made Vickers tank with two turents. Unit 450 that is Vickers E Mk.B typical tank from GB with 47mm Vickers gun and here with polish wz.30 CMG insted of 7.7mm vickers CMG. All parameters are like previous version except FC=2 single turent version has a optic sight and armour should be hanged TR=2 like in previous unit. ROF=8 because gun is not so fast like TMG in two turents version and icon is of course with single turent. lbm is not good because represents leter polish rebuild variant with air inlets but here is not rebuild version so should be lbm 27614 Unit 638 is for remove because represents this same units what 449 is a clone Unit 639 Represent Mk.A with polish only rebuild air intakes , camo from years 34-36. This version has in one of the turents 13.2mm TMG The lbm what should be good for this version is PM30225-old.LBM you can see on this photo a longer TMG in one turent. In armour HR is 2 for all polish tanks with rebuild air intakes. TR shuld be changed TR=2. Radio code is 21 because not many of tanks was rebuild for this standart. Unit 640 The same rebuild what previous unit but with old 37mm SA18 puteaux gun TR should be 2. Radio code too with 21 because not many rebuild Unit 641 Standart version with two wz.25 TMG .TR should be changed TR=2 like in previous tanks here I propositioned a new lbm Pm29427.lbm because previous photo represents tank without air intakes Icon too ned changes to for old camo version summer and desert icon should be 3472 for winter 3473 Unit 642 too standart version but after rearm to wz.30 TMG. in armour too change for TR=2 is need and lbm I propositioned Pm29428.lbm represents tank with air intakes and wz.30 TMG. As you can see in this last configuration was used by polish in 1939 Unit 643 Is not need should be removed this unit is a clone of unit 450 Unit 644 Vickers one turent in old camo and with air intake so HR is 2. In this tank TR should be changed to 2 because turent with gun was 13mm all around like in two turent version Unit 645 The same tank like previous but with new camo TR should be 2 Unit 646 the same what previous TR should be 2 but after euiped all vickers single turent tanks in radio so Radio is 82 Rusian OOB Rusian buy this Vickers tanks and than made his own T-26. Unit 518 represents this orginal UK made tanks. speed should be changed to 12 not 10 like is today. DT TMG are good rusian arms this tanks in his own TMGs. TR should be 2 like changes in polish oob. Icon is from T-26 M1931 what is very similar I proposition put here a new Vickers icons what are in atachment. I propositioned too change a lbm to 27617 because this today represents vickers tank in polish camo. Chinse comunists OOB Unit 005 as I supppouse is a Vickers Vickers E Mk.B single turent variant. What should be changed: Crew should be 3 , Speed 12 , Radio should be 8X because chinse tanks was radio equiped , gun weapon 019 I think is not good compare with weapon 023 in polish oob ammo for gun should be HE=25 and AP=24 tank has 49 shells. In slot two should be Vickers CMG , Vickers BMG should be removed in slot 4. FC should be changed to 2. In Armour HF changed to 2 , HR=1 , TF=2. Icon is from vickers 12-ton tank I propositioned put here a special icon for chinse vickers tanks with radio roof in turent rear icon 3481. LBMs for chinse Vickers E one turents are 27612 and 27613 Unit 288 No info about buy to china a two turent variant of Vickers tank so meyby should be removed? but if you want leve here this tank need changes. Crew:3 , Speed:12 , TR=2 , ROF=9 Icon is taken from T-26 M1931 I propositioned put here a new vickers icons. Propositioned lbm 27617 Bulgarian OOB Unit 001 change speed:12 , FC=2 , RF=1 , Gun to weapon like 023 in polish OOB , AP ammo should be 24 , TR armour should be 2 as a icon I propositioned new vickers icons in fabric camo 3480. Unit 282 Need the same changes like unit 001 Nationalist China OOB Unit 005 need the same changes like unit 005 in Comunists china OOB Unit 288 need the same changes like unit 288 in Comunists china OOB In 1935 china buy 23 Dragon, Medium Mk.IV based on vickers E Netherlands OOB Unit 309 gun I thing need comprasion see weapon 023 in polish OOB in netherlads parameters are difrents ammo changes HE=25 AP=24 Saboot =0. Another changes FC=2 , HF=2 , HR=1 , TF=2. Icon can be changed to one of new icons in atachment Greece OOB Unit 365 Crew=3 , Speed=12 , TR=2 icon can be changed from T-26 M1931 to one of the new Vickers E Mk.A icons Unit 366 lbm should be changed because represents polish variant with air intakes I propositioned 27611 or 27614. Speed=12 , FC=2 , HF=2 , HR=1 , TF=2. Gun should be compared to weapon 023 in polish OOB ammo AP=24 , Sabot=0. Icon can be changed to one of the new vickers icons Finland OOB Finlan buy in 1933 one single turent variant for test with 47mm orginal gun. Than in years 1938-1939 buy 33 tanks some with Mark E hull the last with Mark F hull. Tanks were without guns so Finns buy in bofors fabric 37mm guns the same what were used in polish 7TP tanks. In the first period tanks were unarmed or armet with one TMG or 37mm puteaux makeschift. Than were armed in 37mm gun but with makeshift sights because germans don't sell optics for gun. Unit 004 Schould be Crew=3 , Radio meaby 20? , Ammo for gun HE=25 AP=50 Sabot=5 like in 7TP see to the weapon 14 shuld have the same parameters like weapon 015 in Polish OOB. Wapon in slot 2 should be Maxim CMG. RF=1 armour HS=2 , TS=2 , TR=2 I proposition add a new icon of this tank made specialy for finish Vickers. I proposition too add a new units what represents a late vickers tanks with Mark.F hull all parameters should be the same like unit 004 after modification but HR=2 because F version hull has difrent (better) shape of hull and icons from scope 3483-3486. Next new unit what can be add for finish OOB is T-26E this is a Vickers E with 45mm gun weapon 018 and DT CMG demounted from destroyed T-26 with optic FC=1 RF=1. LBM 23556 represents this tank. Siam (Thailand) OOB Unit 010 Carry=6 , Speed=12 , FC=2 , Gun wepon 204 should be compared to weapon 023 in polish OOB ammo HE=25 AP=24 Sabot=0 Armour HF=2 , HR=1 , TF=2 icon can be take from new vickers icon in atachment Unit 020 AA SP-vehicle based on Vickers E should have lbm 9008 this today is wrong speed=12 weapon should be 019 2-pdr AA gun and armour HF=2 Icon for this vehicle should be 3482. Unit 019 That is not a vickers E based vehicle but is mis-mach with unit 020 shuld have lbm 17025 weapon 007 insted of pom-pom Unit 370 Need this changes what was made in unit 010 icon 3480 should be good I propositioned in unit 370 change start date to 1939 so this unit can represents secound series of tanks with Mark.F hull if this change be made HR should be 2 and nd icons from scope 3483-3486 should be used Blue OOB Unit 001 Crew=3 Speed=12 Radio=22 , TR=2 Icon can be used some of the new for Vickers E vehicles insted of this from T-26. One of bolivian Mk.A were captured together with singl turent version were sold by Paraquay goverment to republican spain in 1937. Unit 002 Crew=3 Speed=12 Radio=22 Ammo AP=24 ,FC=2 , TR=2 , icon 3480 , lbm 27611 should be good because this tank has no air intakes. Year I proposited to change start year to 1933 because in this year Bolivia aquired from vickers fabric single turent Vickers E and use them in Gran-Chaco war with Paraquay and captured by enemy in december 1933. From Paraquay tank were sold to republican spain in January 1937 British OOB Britain has four of this tanks in takes by goverment after WWII starts that was last from the series for Thailand with Mark.F hull I propositioned put this tank for home guard vehicles or experimental vehicles. I propositioned too add a Dragon, Medium Mk.IV artilery tractor Vickers build 12 vehicles for british army http://derela.republika.pl/dragon-mediumIV.jpg I thing that was a vehicle like unit 020 AA vehicle in Thailand OOB but without pom-pom gun and turent armour icon for this vehicle is 3447. All vehicles were in BEF and were destroyed in Dunquierque in 1940 were used for towed 60-pdr guns (127 mm) India OOB In 1937 India bought 18 Dragon, Medium Mk.IV |
Re: Polish OOB
Quote:
So about 7TP armour. At first the values (you can than add if this is correct) turret front: 15mm turret side: 15mm turret rear: 15mm hull front: 17mm hull side: 17mm hull rear: 13mm In game we have this: turret front: 2 turret side: 2 turret rear: 2 hull front: 2 hull side: 2 hull rear: 2 I think that this values are completely right. Why? To set up armour values we need LOS thickness at first. LOS for 7TP is very similar to real values except hull rear because bigger angle. If we have LOS we can set up estimates of armour. There are two possibilities how to do it. The first variant: LOS armour 5-14 mm as 1, 15-24mm as 2, 25-34 as 3, ... The second variant: LOS armour x-10 as 1, 11-20 as 2, 21-30 as 3, 31-40 as 4,... I think that the first variant is better - we must take care also about how penetration of guns is created. And example I modified czechoslovak oob and I made there weaker armor for LT-34 and ST-39. That is because frontal armour of LT-34 is 15mm and side is 12mm so 2 for front and 1 for side. ST-39 than has 32mm front and 20mm side so 3 and 2. LT-35 and LT-38 has front 25mm and side 16/15mm so 3 and 2. You must take in account that if 7TP tank will have more armour values than how to set up armour values for other tanks and how to set up penetrations of guns. Regards Pavel Novak |
Re: Polish OOB
Yes you have right all depends how you scope is for how armour values. But why T-26 has better armour with 3 point on front so meaby 7TP armour scope is too small or T-26 has a too thick armour. This tanks were similar are from Vickers E 6-ton family
Let's see my suorce of T-26 armour http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/w...anks_light.htm <font color="green">T-26 M1931 with two turents</font> hull front HF - 13mm hull side HS - 13mm hull rear HR - 13mm turret all side TF and TS and TR - 13mm how that's look in game Unit 222 in rusian OOB HF - 2 HS - 2 HR - 1 turret all side TF and TS and TR - 2 <font color="green">T-26 M1933 with one turent very similar to 7TP </font> hull front HF - 15mm hull side HS - 15mm hull rear HR - 15mm turret all side TF and TS and TR - 15mm how that's look in game Unit 004 and 224 in rusian OOB HF - 3 HS - 2 HR - 2 TF - 3 TS and TR - 2 <font color="green">T-26 M1939 with one turent </font> hull front HF - 15mm hull side HS - 15mm hull rear HR - 15mm turret all side TF and TS and TR - 15mm how that's look in game Unit 338 rusian OOB HF - 3 HS - 2 HR - 2 TF - 3 TS and TR - 2 |
Re: Polish OOB
If it depends on me I will reduce armour on T-26 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
T-26 M1931 with two turents HF - 2 (armour is inder some angle) HS - 1 HR - 1 TF - 2 (armour is inder some angle) TS and TR - 1 T-26 M1933 with one turent very similar to 7TP HF,HS,HR - 2 TF,TS,TR - 2 T-26 M1939 with one turent HF,HS,HR - 2 (angle of armour is not enough to value 3) TF,TS,TR - 2 (angle of armour is not enough to value 3) Probably someone another should make clear this. |
Re: Polish OOB
Let's add my values for T-26 while we're at it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
T-26 model 1931 Hull 2 1 1 Turret 2 2 1 T-26 model 1933 to 39 Hull 2 2 2 Turret 2 2 2 T-26 model 1939E (nothing to do with the Polish OOB, though) Hull 5 2 2 Turret 4 2 2 |
Re: Polish OOB
A very good comprasion of early war tanks included Armour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...d_War_II_tanks |
Re: Polish OOB
Is that possible add to polish OOB this underground made weapons
<font color="red">Blyskawica SMG </font>circa 700 made orginal design inspired by MP-40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%82yskawica <font color="red"> KIS SMG </font> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIS_%28weapon%29 <font color="red"> Polish Sten SMG </font> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polski_...nd_derivatives <font color="red"> ET wz.40 Filipinka Grenade </font> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipinka <font color="red">R wz.42 Sidolowka Grenade </font> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidol%C3%B3wka <font color="red"> Bechowiec-1 SMG </font> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechowiec-1 |
Re: Polish OOB
Polish Artillery, from Zaloga's "The POlish Campaign"
75mm wz.02/26 field gun 30 caliber 1.1 tons 7.9 kg shell to 10.7 km 10 RPM NOTES: Rechambered version of the Russian Putilov 3" Divisional Gun to fire French 75mm Ammunition. 75mm wz.97 field gun 36 Caliber 1.2 tons 7.9 kg shell to 11.2 km range 12 RPM NOTES: Polish version of the French "75". 100mm Model 14/18 P Howitzer 24 caliber 1.5 tons 16 kg shell to 10 km 8 RPM NOTES: Skoda design built in Poland. 105mm Schneider wz.29 Gun 31 caliber 2.8 tons 15.7 kg shell to 15.2 km 6 RPM 120mm Schneider wz.09/31 Guns 27 Caliber 3.5 tons 20.3 kg shell to 12.4 km 3-4 RPM NOTES: Modernized with Russian 6" gun tubes. 155mm Schneider wz. 17 Howitzer 15 caliber 3.3 tons 43.4 kg shell to 11.2 km 3 RPM 220mm wz.32 Mortar 19 Caliber 13.7 tons 128 kg shells to 15 km 1 RPM NOTES: Skoda Model 32 design. Towed in three parts&#8212;tube, trunnion, and base plate&#8212;by C7P tracked artillery tractors. |
Re: Polish OOB
Some hypotheticals....
155mm wz. 39 Gun 18 caliber 40.78 lb shell to 27,600m 10 man crew 15,000 kg 3 RPM NOTES: Was in development when Poland fell in 1939. 120mm wz. 1940 Breech-loading Mortar 840 kg 3 RPM 5,800m Range 8 man crew NOTES: Was in development when Poland fell in 1939. |
Re: Polish OOB
Small note in the year 1937 some but not all 75mm wz.02/26 and 75mm wz.97 guns were modernised to the Antitank role. 75mm wz.97 with this modification can be recognised by new pneumatics weehels wz.02/26 AT isn't simple to recognition look's like a standart infantery support version. What was made in both guns for adapt to the new role
- Was used special AT amunition for both guns armour-piercing high explosive shells wz.10 (weight 6.4 kg, weight of explosive 90g). Armour penetration about 60mm. So propositioned add AP=8 in ammo - Both modernized AT type guns has beter optic on the level of 37mm bofors gun so i propositionet for this version FC=3 RF=2 was mounted new sights. This guns was very effective in AT role for example during fight near Mokra polish used 75mm wz.02/26 AT guns against Pz.I and Pz.II tanks. Tanks hiting by this guns can turn somersaults and fall upside down because power of shot was a very big for this light tank from near distance. here are a links (in polish but with drawings and pictures) 75mm wz.02/26 http://www.wojsko18-39.internetdsl.p...rmata0226.html 75mm wz.97http://www.wojsko18-39.internetdsl.p.../armata75.html |
Re: Polish OOB
Quote:
( http://www.1939.pl/uzbrojenie/polski...ria/index.html ) |
7TP Bug?
After installing the latest patch I found my 7TPs were popping smoke - ruined a rather nice ambush too. I don't remember reading about 7TPs with smoke dischargers but I'm no expert. I looked through the Polish oob with mobhack and found:
451 7TP SD 1 455 7TP SD 0 459 7TP SD 2 460 7TP spychaz SD 0 467 7TP wczesny SD 0 552 7TP SD 0 It looks like 451 and 459 accidently acquired smoke. |
Re: 7TP Bug?
7TP has no special smoke granade instalation that is historical right. But when I project parameters for 7TP I assume for this new versions with one turent and 37mm bofors gun
451 7TP wczesny (early) 459 7TP 466 9TP (improved version of 7TP) they have a smoke amunition for gun and use this sometimes for cover. I don't have a certain information about amunition in 7TP tanks family the only certain is that they have 80 shels for gun. How many was AP , HE or Sabot or meaby smoke no info. We must ask SPCAMO team is that possible with smoke ammo for gun or need correct? |
Re: 7TP Bug?
It wasn't gun smoke, it was discharger smoke - the three puffs that appear in the front of the unit.
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Re: Polish OOB
Bug in POLAND/LWP
1)in POLAND + "ZOB partisans" rename -> "ZZW partisans" + rename "partisans " -> "AK partisans" "BCH partisans" "ZZW partisans" 2)in LWP + rename "partyzanci" -> "GL partisans" (GL in 1944 it was incorporated by the Armia Ludowa GL -> AL) "ZOB partisans" In Poland +AK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa +BCH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataliony_Ch%C5%82opskie +NSZ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSZ +ZZW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZW In LWP +ZOB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZOB +GL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwardia_Ludowa GL in 1944 it was incorporated by the Armia Ludowa GL -> AL |
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