OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

No doubt people have heard of the North Korean missile tests yesterday. I'm interested as to what people's opinions are with relation to these tests; Should they be construed as a direct provocation, or merely as the right of a sovereign nation to act militarily as they wish as long as no other nation is harmed? Should military action against North Korea be contemplated, or should they be ignored since they likely just want more leverage in future negotiations??

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

The whole issue is being overblown by the media here - but I think that any sovereign country has the right to conduct tests of their weapon systems. If I was N. Korea, I'f probably exercise some discreation in when and how I choose to test though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

Real nice timing on N. Korea too. I think they have a right to defend their selves but if they violate the sovernty of another countries air space their should be retaliation. I can see it now, NK sends a test balistic missile over Japan and it crashes into a suburb. I don't see the point in NK continuing to persue the nuke option when their people are starving. Eventually they will go bankrupt.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

The point is simply to maintain control over their people. An oppresed people can't very well rise up and overthrow an oppresive government in this day and age when they would be crushed by the military tanks and machine guns. It's not like the 1700's when the armies of the world didn't have all that better of weapons then the general populace. These days as long as the military is behind the current regime, which it appears to be in this case, you aren't going to get a "popular revolution" without some outside intervention. The nukes are a deterrant to anyone outside that might be considering intervening.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

“As Long as no other nation is harmed?” Harm doesn’t have to come in the form of big smoking hole in the ground. Nations that feel that North Korea is on track to become more threatening in the future will now have to spend more resources in countering the future threat.

As for leverage in future negotiations, they promised in past negotiation not to test fire any long range missiles. It’s difficult to trust future negotiations if they break their promises.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

I have to disagree with you. Developing nukes has nothing to do with keeping their people in line, it only makes the west think twice about attacking NK. NK is not going to nuke their own soil. Well, maybe if they were invaded. The creation of tanks, jets, and troops will on the other hand keep the people in line to a point.

And I have to say that even in this day and age the people can still rise up and overthrow their government. But, it helps when the military are on your side. Remember, the military are made up of the people. If enough rise up they will take notice. But when your starving and forced to eat grass that may not be much of an option. Either way I feel NK on the path to self distruction. If only China would stop financing them. Does China really want their tiny neighbor a nuke threat? Eventually I think NK will crumble like the USSR.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

China doesn't have to worry much about North Korea because NK wouldn't be nuking *them* (which hasn't stopped them from prodding NK about it..)They prop NK up because the alternative in their view is a heavy US military presence on their border.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

Hmm,
exercising a soveriegn right, that maybe, the problem is Japan is in the line of fire for such tests, the missile that failed would have over flown Japan, just like in 1994. N. Korea didn't care to inform Japan of the test firing then or now. The short range one they fired got no closer than 600 miles. N korea kid napped off japanese soil around a half dozen Japanese citizens. Turns out they recently kidnapped aSouth Kearon couple to build a new theatre.

N. Korean ,Collapse, China gets to much milage out of th grief it vause the west to allow that to happen, after all they bailed them in the korean war (260 chinese came over boarded and pushed UN/US forces back.) South korea also does not want to see NK collapse since the y will end being brunt of the fallout, there also the ones under threat by the nukes if hostilites break out (not mention Seol (sp) is in range of NK artillery, estimates 50'000 SK civilian causulties would occur within the first day of a conflict.

The N. Korean leader is perfeclty happy to let his people starve (mostly outside the cities) for its not his fault its the result of the evil and vile west (US) trying to exterminate them, and he is their protector, their still alive aren't they.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

I think North Korea has the right to do whatever military tests they feel like doing. What country has the right to prevent another sovereign nation from developing weaponry that most of the world already possesses? It doesn't matter if that nation is unpalatable to the rest of the world, as long as they don't interfere with the affairs of another nation. The state of mind and mindset of their leadership is irrelevant.

I say ignore them completely. They are no threat currently, and they will not use nuclear weapons unless they're invaded. After all, if they were stupid enough to nuke someone in North America, they have to know their entire nation would be blown back to the stone age.

I also think they're doing it simply for leverage in future negotiations. Every time they restart their nuclear efforts, or launch an intercontinental missile, the world freaks out, and tries to get them to stop. They only stop when concessions are made to them, usually in the form of international aid. Either way, they win...unless you pay them no attention.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

Norht korean has south korea as a hostage. Technically US and Nk still at war. there was never a treaty signed.

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North Korea? You mean too tell me that there is still a North Korea controlled by a dictator with ICBM's, a million man army, and a nuke, bent upon being a a dick to the rest of the world? Hum, sounds more like a 007 bad guy than a real dictator of a real country to me. They no scare me, let China deal with them.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

bah! Either have China annex North Korea or the US should turn the country into a nice parking lot with convential bombs.

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And people wonder why the younger generation in South Korea has turned so Anti-American.

The only solution to all this is hope nothing bad happens until Kim Jong-Il dies.

After that, who knows what might happen. China could occupy North Korea and turn it into Chaoxian province; whoever takes over could choose to reunify with the south peacefully; whoever takes over chooses to go nuts and reinstigate the Korean War and get promptly killed (but not before taking a lot of people with him); or something else we've not contemplated.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

Long post folks. If you don't care, which you shouldn't mostly, stay clear of this one.

Direct provocation to whom? Not to the US, with which the north koreans want to establish bilateral talksm either as a ploy to get more time or more concessions. ROK? I don't think provoking their "ethnic brothers" would be very good propaganda. The PRC, their primary and only ally? No. Japan? Russia? Those two nations are nothing but scapegoats to the Norks, so no. This test is nothing but a tantrum, a show to get attention from the world: the fact that all missiles landed in international waters should show you that clearly.

Sovereign nation, my foot. North Korea is the most illegitimate regime to ever exist on this earth. But no, even if the government of North Korea was however legit, it does not excuse such actions.

Military action? In the current state of affaires East Asia is experiencing? No. Absolutely not. Doing so will result in a brand new definition of Quagmire. Ignoring won't do much either, as simply not acknowledging this will lead to greater action on the part of the North Koreans. Something must be done: something along the lines of sanctions (as useless as they are).

Like I said above - don't fool yourself into thinking that the current regime up there is in any way legitimate.

Sure, retaliation sound all well and good, but remember: 10 million people (including a large number of american expats and military personel) lie in range of Nork artillery. Much more allied civilians/personel lie in range of Nork SCUDs. And that's just the human costs. Economic costs of failed retaliation could be enormous in a region that is host to some of the largest economies in the world. Think about that next time you talk about bombing north korea into the stone age.

And Japan does nothing, for if it tries to respond in kind (and it can, repeatedly) it will give the Chinese political capital to enter the fray.

Geo answered why the norks will continue whatever they have in nukes quite well; and you don't want them going bankrupt, as regime collapse is never a pretty thing for its population and its neighbours.

Bingo, right on the money.

You say that as if you expected them to keep their word.

It keeps people in line because a nuclear deterrent scores bonus propaganda points; the fact that they have developed nukes make them think they are one of the big boys of the world, which is what their main ideology, Juche, is all about.

May I remind you that the Korean peninsula is quite devoid of resources, that the industry in North Korea is outdated soviet stuff, and that the scientific knowledge and the engineering know-how to create such things is non-existant in the KWP?

The military is made up of the people, and NK's people is best described ideologically imprinted. Half a century's worth of total isolation from the world and repeated enforced doctrinization have left these people not knowing anything else except: 1) Kim Il-Sung is their eternal saviour 2) North Korea is the best place in the world to live in 3) Their comrades to the south are under the evil spell of American/Japanese capitalists and imperialists. People like that are not prone on rebelling anytime soon.

On the one hand, a North Korea that is unpredictable and is controlled by China gives them considerable leverage in the international diplomatic stage. On the other, North's going nuclear is making other nations think about their nuclear options, including Japan and the ROC, otherwise known as Taiwan. This does not bode well for the PRC.

And the loss of a client state, the loss of an ideological "brother", and possible irredentism a unified Korea could field in regards to Manchuria, but yeah, mostly for that reason.

Much more than just 50K, but yes. Absolutely right on this.

I'll assume that that last bit was sarcastic, but yes, that seems to be the rational the ruling elite has.

Unpalatable, yes. Irresponsible, of course. Sovereign, absolutely not.

Like I mentioned before, as North Korea is in the middle of one of the most dynamic places on earth, there is a lot riding on what they do/how this gets resolved.

Ha! They are peddling meth to Australia and Japan; They are selling Scuds to Yemen, Iran, and Syria; They have kidnapped countless South Korean and Japanese nationals; They possess vast stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons they can sell at a premium; They have sent commandos to recon the south through tunnels and minisubs that have terrorized the nation; they have created quality forgeries of US currency that they can supply/use to whoever, do whatever they want.

Do I need to go on?

Except lob it over Japan whenever they feel like it. BTW, when Japan is gone and ROK is irradiated, say goodbye to the east asian beef market.

They don't need to, but that's not so easy to do. See above.

That's their game.

Then North Korea goes columbine and starts killing indiscriminately. Then you've got a problem.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

You know TC, I think you're right. Guess I don't have sufficient knowledge of the detailed situation in the region!

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

Well, as someone who does know a great deal about that region of the world and North Korea in particular, I say that a sovereign nation has the right to test whatever it wants to test.

It's almost funny that Japan, considering its long and rich history of "involvement" on the Korean peninsula, would now huff and puff about potential "threats" from North Korea.

And it is hysterically funny that the USA, which has more soldiers stationed beyond its borders than any other country, has expressed its desire to eliminate several governments that it does not like, has invaded and occupied (and will continue to occupy indefinitely) one country for no reason at all, and is engaged in the biggest military buildup in human history, has the nerve to express dismay when other countries test weapons (North Korea), buy weapons (Venezuela) and modernize their military forces (China).

The US does not have the right to give orders to other countries and dominate the air, land, and sea of planet Earth. It does not have the right to dominate space. The Bush regime has repeatedly said that that level of domination is its goal.

No wonder the world is afraid.

Re: OT: North Korea Missile Tests
 

The tension is rather like a guy in a bar showing off his gun.

And then someone else says 'Hey, I got one too!'.

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Axis of Evil - Iran, Iraq and North Korea. Iran has nuclear power stations and is probably working on a bomb. North Korea has Nuclear power and already has the bomb. Iraq had neither but was thought to be working on the bomb so they drew the short straw.

China is the biggest dictatorship in the world and is solely responsible for something like 75% of all capital punishment worldwide. They have the bomb and are a preferred trading partner of the US and a member of the WTO. Nice.

Pakistan historically was a base of operations for the Taleban and other radical Islamic groups. They have the bomb and have become a "friend of America" in the war against terrorism. Or specifically their dictator leader has become a friend of America and the majority of the rest of the population aren't so sure, which is not to say they're actively anti-American.

The US is probably incapable of actually conducting a war against an enemy which is even remotely as capable as them because casualties on the scale of Iraqi losses would be totally unacceptable to the American public (and rightly, IMO.) which is what you would get if they clashed with even a semi-modern large army like Korea's or China's or even France's... ;-)