docking escorts
 

Is there a way to make ships dockable like fighters? I don't mean making a gigantic fighter that just looks like an escort or frigate, cause then it could be loaded with fighter components and be shot down w/ PDC, and basically be not good.

I'm thinking a baseship that holds a small fleet of escorts and/or frigates.

I imagine this would need a code change, but I figured I'd bring it up in case it could be moded.

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Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: docking escorts
 

Not that I know currently, although you could make a huge fighter as you suggested it wouldn't require any maintenance, or be upgradable for that matter. The idea is pretty interesting though, reminds of the Battlerider and Tender setup in Traveller.

Re: docking escorts
 

The advantage of this would be, other than "roleplay" reasons, that the ships don't need their own warp capability and so gain extra space within the hull for other gear, or reduced build/maintenance costs and also reduced supply usage. Finally of course the mothership can offer protection.

At the moment for roleplay reasons you could simply move all the ships in a fleet, a bit naff though

I haven't played around with the modding, but I see an ability for extra combat move, so perhaps this could be used to create an engine component which only allows combat movement not map movement, but there is currently no way to dock the ships with a mothership - is this right?

Personally I feel that the division between ship and unit (and world) needs to be blurred a bit more.
Too much artificial division between a large fighter and an escort, in the real world analogy of naval fleets this makes some sense as ships are very different to fighter planes, but space combat is very different.
Also at the other end of the scale, make all world abilities usable on massive ships / let them carry active population!

Re: docking escorts
 

Sounds like the gunboats from In Death Ground. It would be an interesting addition. Mabye give them a speacial one shot super-missile that does ultra massive damage. To keep them from looking like fighters, they should only launch one at a time, and not fly in Groups.


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Rules? What Rules?

Re: docking escorts
 

This sounds like the role Drones will fill when they are finally implimented.

Hopefully in a patch or two....

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: docking escorts
 

Might be a good idea for the 'Pirates and Nomads' (see other Posts). Although, I wouldn't have the first idea as to how to make it work......

Re: docking escorts
 

This also sounds like the Andromedans from Star Fleet Battles. And one of the Starfire expansion packs had a similar concept as well.

You could even expand this to use "Fast Patrol" boats (PFs) and PF Tenders as an interim step. PFs in Star Fleet Battles were between fighters and escorts, and needed to be "carried" (actually attached via mech-links) to larger ships, which then deployed them for battle. For SEIV, PFs should be able to operate like fighters, (no warp capability, etc.) only with more supply storage and "medium" weapons (again, somewhere between "small" weapons and ship weapons). Of course, PF's are something that could possibly be modded in (except that I'm not certain they should be susceptible to Point-Defense).

Re: docking escorts
 

Maybe you could create a hull and give it the "Launched from ship" line in the vehicle file and then create a launcher. You probably couldn't prevent the launcher from being used for fighters but you may be able to launch your ship.

Re: docking escorts
 

Can you give "Launched from Ship" to a ship? I suppose I could try. If you can, then how do you specify that they can be launched? I thought "Launch/Recover Fighters" etc was hard coded
There doesn't seem to be an ability to allow drones to be launched

So, you would probably have to make them Satellites, or Mines, and use that lauch ability... worth a try I suppose

Re: docking escorts
 

I think the Pirates & Nomads Mod already does this, though currently you have to take a racial tech to get it. But he's also added a lot of fighter tech to make the "big" fighters more like ships. You should check it out -- you'll be pleasantly surprised at how good this mod is.

Re: docking escorts
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathstalker:
This sounds like the role Drones will fill when they are finally implimented.

Hopefully in a patch or two....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the drone description says that they will be launched from a planet, can't be recovered, head to a target, and then they die (I think they're basically big missiles that ram into a planet and go boom). At least that's what it was when MM was saying stuff about drones way back when...

Re: docking escorts
 

I've been playing with this, and I think the only way is to make a big fighter, then to mod a load of tech to make it usable on fighters (as per the comment about the pirate/nomad mod)

There's too much hard coded - I tried to make a satellite which could move, but I can't find a way to give a sat movement- whatever do, when they launch they just sit there.
Drone doesn't seem to be implemented at all,
I didn't even try weapon platform,
and I couldn't find away to make a "ship" launchable.

Re: docking escorts
 

Planetary dock? That sounds neat. One thing that could do along with hide a ship is reduce its maintence costs, since its engines and systems wouldn't be running all the time.

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Rules? What Rules?

Re: docking escorts
 

Yeah, but with a time and/or resource penalty to reflect the extra effort involved in moving around within a planet's atmosphere. Either that or require that a ship has a small "atmospheric maneuvering" component to allow it to get into and out of orbit.

Maybe planets with no atmos could have an advantage here? A use for those tiny moons at Last...

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: docking escorts
 

I read something about that. Using small, low-gravity, no-atmosphere moons and asteroids for starship bases. That would be usefull in SEIV. You could build a secret base in the asderoids of the enemys systems.

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Rules? What Rules?

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 02 May 2001).]

Re: docking escorts
 

*Dogscoff smacks forehead*
...Not the asteroids thread again... please not the asteroids thread...

Sorry... don't know what came over me there http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

If ship-in-ship docking was allowed according to the beginning of this thread, and my idea on asteroid utilisation adopted (in some other thread somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. I'm sure not typing it again=-) then you could hide ships in aasteroids like that. Fighters too.

Now where's that thread..?

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: docking escorts
 

... Found it. From the "asteroids question" thread which died a few weeks ago. Here's how I think asteroid usage should be implemented. Obviously it's all hard code, perhaps in SEV / expansion pack?

&lt;Wild idea&gt;
Treat each asteroid field like a space station or group of space stations - You don't need to colonise it, you just have to get a construction ship there and take advantage of a free "hull" with natural cloaking, really low maintenance and space for scanners, fighter bays, cargo space, weapons etc.

In combat each "hull" (ie each rock) would be treated exactly like a space station. It would have a special graphic and it could be boarded or destroyed just like a space station. When destroyed the rock becomes available for someone else to build on.

Tiny asteroid field - approx 100KT hull
Small asteroid field - approx 200KT hull.
Medium asteroid field - 1 100KT hull + 1 200KT hull
... and so on.

When I say "approx", why not put in a random modifier? One tiny asteroid field has 109KT space, the one in the next sector only 98KT. I don't know i there are any components &lt;5 KT but it would b a good incentive to mod some

&lt;/Wild idea&gt;


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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: docking escorts
 

Some things you just can't do http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif but since MM keeps adding to the game maybe one day it will work. A carrier full of destroyers, wow a scary thought!

Re: docking escorts
 

If they ever do add that perhaps they could put in a planetary dock facility - hide ships on a planet's surface so your enemies can't see your defences. (unless they have scanners)

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but we'll never get a monkey to use dental floss!"

Re: docking escorts
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spoo:
Is there a way to make ships dockable like fighters? I don't mean making a gigantic fighter that just looks like an escort or frigate, cause then it could be loaded with fighter components and be shot down w/ PDC, and basically be not good.

I'm thinking a baseship that holds a small fleet of escorts and/or frigates.

I imagine this would need a code change, but I figured I'd bring it up in case it could be moded.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As others have pointed out, this is basically "Pseudo-fighters" from Starfleet Battles. You can get awfully close to this in the follwing way:

1) Mod your data files:

a&gt; Make a "Combat Movement" component for ships as well as fighters. +1, +2, and +3 movement is good. Where to place these in the engines field, or whether to make them a special field, is up to you.

b&gt; Give "supply storage" and "solar collector" components in your data files a cargo storage ability so they can be placed in transports. Make it '0' cargo storage of course, and don't give it a description so it doesn't appear in the abilities list.

c&gt; Optionally, also give the repair bay the '0' cargo storage ability so it can be added into the mix.

2) Design your attack escorts with minimal engines, NO supply storage or other non-combat peripherals, and these special combat thrusters. They'll be slow on the strategic map but kick-*** in combat. If you equip them with missiles they can make "torpedo runs" against enemy ships. Even if you equip them with beams they might be able to dance in and out of range, although the advantages of mounts for larger ships could be a problem for them to cope with. They can probably outrun other ship's missiles, though.

3) Though you cannot actually make a ship that carries other ships, you can make a "PF Tender" that keeps these attack escorts supplied. Fill a transport hull with as many solar collectors as reasonably possible plus a few supply storage units to make a reserve supply pool. Include a repair bay if you've made that mod. Equip it with minimal defense components. ECM, maybe. Nothing more. The PFs are supposed to protect it, while it is supposed to keep them supplied and repaired and be CHEAP on maintenance.

Fleet a bunch of these attack escorts with one or more of these tenders and you have a slow fleet on the strtegic map that turns into a very fast fleet in tactical combat. This is about as close as you're going to get to PFs and tenders in the SFB style.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 03 May 2001).]

Re: docking escorts
 

I was looking at trying this out by making a larger fighter hull that was limited in speed on the strategic map, but with a high combat speed. The custom component group ability isn't implemented yet is it? I'm asking because I came up with one possible problem, if I want to design a battle rider/fast attack craft/system defense boat or whatever how do I keep from using components like fighter cockpits and fighter engines? I envisioned making them use five ton engines, but I think if I added the hull size the AI would just make them use fighter sized engines, ECM, combat sensors etc.

Re: docking escorts
 

Ok I've been toying around with making dockable 80-150 ton fast attack craft/battle riders. I think this is doable at the present but only for human players. It could be workable for the AI if the custom group ability is turned on. Then you could design medium sized components for them. I'm currently letting them just use fighter sized components for cockpits and life support, but have bumped up the number of life supports needed.

I've done them as fighter so far because I don't think they should be able to make warp point jumps without a carrier/tender.

Problems so far:
They can be targeted by PD weapons, I guess this is somewhat balanced out by not needing repairs.

They don't require maintenance, but they also cannot be upgraded so I guess its a trade off.

Weapons, I've continued to let them use the fighter sized weapons to represent secondary batteries or light back up weapons. I'm modding/copying some of the regular ship weapons so they can use them also. The problem with this is that so far they are extremely deadly if there is a stack of battleriders. I'm thinking of making some sort of medium sized beam weapons for them as a compromise. I'm also modding some of the regular missile weapons to make smaller one shot variations like the rocket pods used by the fighters.

It's going to be probably a week or so before I can finish this off, but would anyone be interested in testing out to see how well this works?

Re: docking escorts
 

To solve the speed problem, make thier Engines per move 3-5, and their max engines = to (Engines per move x Max speed wanted for Ion engines), just make sure in the AI_Design_creation.txt that fighters hull size is limited so they won't use the new bigger design, and a new "fighter" entry is added with the appropriate sizes and movement requirements (FYI Desired Speed/Max Speed does NOT refer to actual speed, but instead to the number of engines to use. And total movement point can't go over 255 or you get a range check error).

To solve the lifesupport/cockpit problem do this: For your new design set requirement for bridge and lifesupport to 0, or at least the cockpit. Add a requirement of 1 crew quarters. Add a new componet that in it's description says it's the command center/short-term crew quarters/lifesupport for these new smaller vessels... make it 5 tons or whatever, and give it the abilities of a crew quarters. Problem solved (you can still use lifesupport if you want, say require 2 or 3 of the 1 ton componets).

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 06 May 2001).]

Re: docking escorts
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trachmyr:
To solve the speed problem, make thier Engines per move 3-5, and their max engines = to (Engines per move x Max speed wanted for Ion engines), just make sure in the AI_Design_creation.txt that fighters hull size is limited so they won't use the new bigger design, and a new "fighter" entry is added with the appropriate sizes and movement requirements (FYI Desired Speed/Max Speed does NOT refer to actual speed, but instead to the number of engines to use. And total movement point can't go over 255 or you get a range check error).

To solve the lifesupport/cockpit problem do this: For your new design set requirement for bridge and lifesupport to 0, or at least the cockpit. Add a requirement of 1 crew quarters. Add a new componet that in it's description says it's the command center/short-term crew quarters/lifesupport for these new smaller vessels... make it 5 tons or whatever, and give it the abilities of a crew quarters. Problem solved (you can still use lifesupport if you want, say require 2 or 3 of the 1 ton componets).

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 06 May 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow very good. I'll add in those changes.