Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Anyone figure out hoe to alter the starting facs of a homeworld? It seems totally unconnected to the AI Facility file. So far the only thing I can think of is to start with NO technology, thus no facilities... and make everyone build from scratch using the AI Facility file. That would be really annoying! So, anyone figure out a way... or is it another hardcoded "feature"?

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Well? ...Anyone?

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

The homeworlds start with SY, RD, SP.
Then added are: 1 Best Organics Extractor, 1 Best Radioactives Extractor, then 50/50 on research and mineral extractor.

I don't think you can get arbitrary starting facils.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I was afraid of that... thanx for the reply.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I know how to alter that, and within the framework of the existing game, too.

Choose "Natural Merchants", and you won't start with a Space Port http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

/me ducks the rotten fruit and runs for the wings...

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

While messing with the facilities file I found that I could get a large number of shipyards, resupply depots or spaceports on a homeworld by giving them research or mineral mining abilities. If they generate more of them than the normal starting type of facilities they get added instead. you could have 10+ shipyards on a planet this way.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

What exactly would be the point of that, given that additional shipyards don't help?

I'd think it would really spork the AI, too.

Phoenix-D

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I read somewhere that in an earlier Version of SE4 there was a bug/cheat involving multiple shipyards. Apparently you got the benefit of all the build capability of all shipyards on a planet. It could be done only by queueing multiple shipyards on a planet that did not already have one on it. This may have been changed, I know by V1.19 you couldn't queue multiple yards.
I didn't test if the multiple yards stacked, but if they did you could have one cranking homeworld shipyard!

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 03 May 2001).]

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
I read somewhere that in an earlier Version of SE4 there was a bug/cheat involving multiple shipyards. Apparently you got the benefit of all the build capability of all shipyards on a planet. It could be done only by queueing multiple shipyards on a planet that did not already have one on it. This may have been changed, I know by V1.19 you couldn't queue multiple yards.
I didn't test if the multiple yards stacked, but if they did you could have one cranking homeworld shipyard!

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 03 May 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You used to be able to enter ONE space yard into the queue and then turn on REPEAT BUILD to keep adding space yards. This would let you fill a planet with yards. It should have been fixed to not allow that anymore. I haven't tried it though, so cannot say for sure.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

The game gives you full credit for all the yards on a planet.

You just aren't allowed to BUILD any when you already have more than zero.

I remember doing that. 50K construction per turn. Build SM ships instantly http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Imagine a Sphereworld full of stackable Temporal Shipyards. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I was running a test game anyways so I tried this with ship yard I. The repeat build flag stayed active but the ship yard did NOT get repeated in the queue.

Temporal SY will need to be tested still

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was running a test game anyways so I tried this with ship yard I. The repeat build flag stayed active but the ship yard did NOT get repeated in the queue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course. That bug has been fixed as of V1.3 or perhaps even earlier.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Did a quick test.
I added 600 points of research ability to Shipyard I and started a default game. Had 9 shipyards on my homeworld and build rate was 18k per resource so it looks like this still works. I have v1.30 installed. Don't know what would happen if they were upgraded or if any problems would occur later in the game. Might have to explore this a little more.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Try that again with max tech and I bet you get 8 research III and 1 SY III. SEIV sometimes has a problem with mixed ability comps and facilitys.

However it appears that as of now you can do this so homeworlds (as long as they don't take damage) will start out with massive build ability. But you will not be able to repair or build a new planet with multiple SYs. However you might want to see if the AI does it because it sometimes is able to do some illegal stuff http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I only modified shipyard I but it would probably work with any level if the extra values were increased above the normal facility, ie shipyard III also generated one more research point than research III.
I as thinking of creating special facilities that have unique abilities that would be chosen for homeworlds. I would make the facility so expensive, 100k of each resource for example, that you wouldn't normally build one. The only problem may be the AI trying to build them so maybe shipyards are the only one that can be done, since you can't build more than one. At least you wouldn't have to create a special tech, it's available from the start to everyone. You could add any facility ability you desired and it would only be used on a homeworld. Maybe I've found my valuable property!

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 03 May 2001).]

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

That might be a nice way of creating a capitol like planet. A planet with 10 shipyards would be an incredible asset to capture and would be something you would want to defend at all costs.
I might have to try it.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

The way around this is simple... don't add research, add resupply or spaceport abilities to it... and mod AI_facility_creation.txt(?) so that the colonies only build one of the approprite item. For instance, add resupply to shipyards... your homeworld will start with 2 shipyards, then modify the AI_facility_creation.txt(?) to remove all instances where a colony is to have both a shipyard and a resupply depot. Of course the drawback is that now you need only build a shipyard and you'll get a resupply depot for free... but if you increase the costs of the shipyards some, and reduce the costs of the "normal" resupply depot, then that will give human players a reason to only build the less usefull resupply depot as it will be built 5x/10x faster than the shipyard.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I think you could get this to work, but you'd have to make sure that any resource/research generation was less than the value of the lowest facility that does that generation. For example, if a level 1 research facility generates 500 points, your shipyard would have to produce less than that.

The problem is that the AI tries to be semi-intelligent and build the facility that generates the most of that particular resource. This is what caused the monlith facilities to never be built by the AI way back when.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Tested the modified shipyard and it causes problems with the AI.
If you give the shipyard the research or mineral mining capacity the AI tries to build it instead of the standard facility on new colonies but they can only build one per planet so their colonies do not grow. I only tested it for about 35 turns so that may not have been a long enough to test. I am not real familiar with how the AI builds on colonies. Maybe a more experianced modder could figure a way around this.
The best I could do without changing the game to much was give the shipyard the ability of a resupply base. This put two yards per homeworld and didn't seem to affect the AI, again the test was not long. Not much of an increase but at least it is sort of logical to have the yard act as a supply base.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I'm not to good at modding the AI files. I just look for the resupply facility and delete it? This must be done for each race I guess http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif
If you don't make the value higher, tried lower but not equal, on the shipyard than the standard facility the AI will pick the standard facility at start.
You could add the Spaceport ability also and get 3 yards at start and that might work too but that doesn't seem as logical, I can see the yard and resupply being done by the same facility.
Do you think having 2 yards on a planet is worth it? I was hoping to get 7-10 yards and create a real important planet. Doesn't seem possible though.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Now that I think about it, you might not have to delete the resupply entries... I'm not sure what will happen though, it might work fine, it might build an extra resupply fac when the shipyard covers it, or it might frezze up.... I'm not sure. You'd only need to delete a "resupply fac entry" when it also occurs with a shipyard entry... and you would have to do it for each race plus the defaults.

I don't think you can have a homeworld start with more than 2 or 3 shipyards w/o causing serious problems in the game, sorry. I just wish MM would remove the 1 shipyard per planet/ship hardcode restriction, and just enforce it with the "Restrictions" line in componets.txt and facility.txt.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I know that 9 shipyards on the homeworld caused the AI to pump out ships! Maybe I will try a few games with three yards on a homeworld, I think I could modify 2-3 AI's to get a feel for how they handle it.
I'm definately gonna try 9+ in a hotseat game though. Then you would have a planet worth risking you entire fleet to capture, or defend!

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I had an interesting thought: maybe the restriction on planetary spaceyards should be "one per [x] facilities on planet". And make [x] a settable option. Make the default high (as in more facilities than you can put on a sphereworld) so it doesn't affect the current setup, but then modders could change it. Setting the value [x] to 20 would allow huge worlds to build 2 spaceyards; [x]=10 would allow 2 spaceyards on medium and large worlds, and 3 on huge worlds; etc.

What do y'all think? I know it requires hardcode change by MM, so would it be worthwhile?

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I like it!

If you rounded off instead of rounding up, then you could have a restriction of no spaceyards on tiny worlds.

Perhaps it should be based on atmosphere; for airless worlds, spaceships would have a natural environment on the surface, and could take off easily. So, vaccuum worlds could have more spaceyards than other atmospheres, which could be limited to one...

Separately, what if ships can only be built at space stations, but bases can be built from planetary spaceyards.

SO, you need a space yard to get the base, which builds the ships in orbit.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Taking that thought a little further, how about limiting the number of certain facilities on specific colony types. Right now the colony designation doesn't mean much, it mostly just tells the AI what to build.
What if you could only build one of any facility on a planet except the facilities that fit that type of colony. For example you designate a colony a mining colony. The only facilities you could build more than one of were ones that directly provided or improved mining.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I'm not sure that would work out unless your allowing the players to setup several different colony blueprints and they have to follow those. Personally I liked mixed ability colonies, such as multiresource colonies and my military colonies usually combine the different shield facilities, training facilities, and such. Besides there could be problems, when you colonize a planet you can hit cancel when it tells you to choose a colony type, if you hit cancel the colony has no type. Or you could continually switch colony types to build the facilities you want anyhow. It's an interesting idea, but in a game like this I would prefer less hard rules to follow and more flexibility. Just my opinion.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

I see both sides.
Switching or mixing colonies give the human a distinct advantage over the AI. The AI follows rigid rules so I don't have any problem with the same rules for me.
In a hot seat game where everyone is tailoring the colonies to their style of play it is more enjoyable to have the flexibility.
Sorry to have gotten away from the original thread.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Like I said it's an interesting idea, I'd prefer for it to be an option really or be able to design and load up my own facility queues. Better yet give the AI a little more flexibility in being able to pick planets and what facilities to construct.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

The other option is simply to add more population modifiers in setting.txt, since your big planets will eventually have more popualtion... if you base production/construction more on population instead of planet size, you can get the results your after. Currently I've modded it so all habitable planets have 25 facilities, this way the facilities just represent how you populations efforts are divided, but I have added numerous new lines of population modifiers... a huge world CAN but out ships twice as fast as large worlds... because huge worlds can have twice the population, and all my modifiers are linear in their bounus (although I gave a slight "increase for tiny and domed worlds, since the population would more likely be specialist than normal citizens)

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much flexibility in the starting facilities.
Maybe this should be suggested for a patch/expansion pack.
I would like to be able to build a "ship building" colony with multiple shipyards, even if there were limits on how many could be placed per planet.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 08 May 2001).]

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

The easiest solution to this is if MM would implement a new HOMEWORLD colony design for STARTING planets. Seems like it'd be fairly simple too.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

That would be nice, espescially if you could designate the mix. Organic races may want more than one farm for example.

Re: Starting facs for homeworlds...
 

And primitive races would not want spaceyards or research facilities.

How about if each AI had txt file to specify what facilities they start with, and human players had an extra screen in the game setup? A default could be used for quick start / missing AI files.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 10 May 2001).]