Counter Intelligence
 

How exactly does counter intelligence work? Why is it so expensive?

Way back in the 0.51 demo, it did not cost very much. Just look at the screen image in the HTML help. It lists the cost of counter intelligence at 5000, 10,000 and 15,000 for levels 1, 2 and 3 respectively. Now the costs are 100,000, 250,000, and 500,000.

What caused this extreme increase in the cost of counter intelligence? What are the ramifications of changing it back to the old values?

The description for counter intelligence states: “Counter-Intelligence will prevent attacks while it is in progress.”

Does this mean that if it takes my empire 100 years to complete counter intelligence level one, that I am covered for all 100 years? That doesn’t sound right…

Can anyone explain all this?

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

As I understand it, it works something like this:

Counter intel acrues points. If it gets to finished without an enemy intel op, it "fails".

If an enemy intel operation comes in, there's a check done. If your counter-intel project(s) have as many or more points as the enemy project took, they have a chance (maybe 100%, not sure) to block the project. If your counter intel has less built up, the enemy project succeeds with no impact on your project.

Phoenix-D

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

The way I thought that it worked was pretty similar to you Phoenix-D except that if the enemies was going to work it was used up and defeats that one attack going back to the start.

It blocks whilst building if they fail in the attack then is used when you fail to block the attack.

I most likely am wrong though!!!

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Counter intel acrues points. If it gets to finished without an enemy intel op, it "fails".

If an enemy intel operation comes in, there's a check done. If your counter-intel project(s) have as many or more points as the enemy project took, they have a chance (maybe 100%, not sure) to block the project. If your counter intel has less built up, the enemy project succeeds with no impact on your project.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with the above, I started quite a thread on the subject a while ago, you might find more information in there.

One thing I must add to the above description is that if Counter Intelligence III blocks an attack, that fact alone does not reset the project. I believe, and experiments have borne this out, that for each level of CI you can block one attack, utilizing the calculation described above (i.e. points invested on both sides are evaluated against each other). I have come to this conclusion watching the progress of several different CI projects of the same level. Example:

Three CI III projects launched simultaneously in an intelligence environment where you are frequently subject to attack. Despite the fact that "Divide all points equally between projects" was selected, it is observed that the three projects still advance unevenly. Moreover the discrepancy is not slight; suddenly one project leaps ahead of the others, in the case of CI III, by a third of its' value.

To conclude, CI II and CI III are superior to CI I in two respects. Firstly, their longer duration allows for greater accumulation of intel points contributing to their ability to block the more serious attacks. Secondly, for each level you have attained in CI you can block one additional project, assuming there is room in the project to do so (meaning that if a project is nearly completed so that, in the case of CI III, advancing it by 1/3 will complete it, then the next turn it will be completed.)

Assuming that I have properly understood CI, I must say it is a very elegant mechanism.

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Ahhh, so that's how it works! Thank you very much, I was just about to start a thread requesting clarification on the function of the Counter-Intelligence projects.

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Dr. S., Magus38, if you really understand CI - lucky you...

I still have some doubts, does CI really function properly ?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magus38:
... I started quite a thread on the subject a while ago, you might find more information in there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Link: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/For...ML/002184.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magus38:
... for each level of CI you can block one attack...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so. My test: CI level 1 accumulated 80,000 CI points defeated 16 (!) little Intel attacks (5,000 points each)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magus38:
... Despite the fact that "Divide all points equally between projects" was selected, it is observed that the three projects still advance unevenly. Moreover the discrepancy is not slight; suddenly one project leaps ahead of the others, in the case of CI III, by a third of its' value. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and I think the sudden leap ahead includes a severe bug ! The points which "fill" the project are mostly not produced by your intel facilities.

I have done an extreme test about that, again (see your other thread, link above):

Empire A has one little Intel 1 facility (produces about 650 intel points per turn) and starts 12 CI level III projects, points evenly divided. Normally it would take about 950 years to complete one of these projects (see attached picture 1).

Every 10th turn Empire B spits in a little Intel attack (5,000 points). In some turns (I have observed this with the 2nd attack) you will see a sudden leap ahead in some of the projects (see picture 2). These CI points are not produced by your little Intel I facility, but you can use these points to counter other severe Intel attacks later on. I don't think this was intended.

I hope I haven't increased the confusion, but I haven't got an answer to these phenomenons yet. If you can help me, pleeeeeeaaaaaaaase enlighten me... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
... In some turns (I have observed this with the 2nd attack) you will see a sudden leap ahead in some of the projects...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that in some cases the CI project was intended to be completed if it counters an attack. Maybe Aaron (forgive me) wanted to do this with an addition of let's say 500,000 points (or a million), which could be enough if you have just one or two CI projects. But with 12 CI level III projects you need to add 6 million points..., otherwise they are distributed to the other projects...

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

After reading all of the replies to my question, I am now sure that turning off intelligence projects in my current game was a good decision!

The documentation should contain a detailed explanation of how counter intelligence works. The documentation is almost completely useless!

Thanks to all who responded.

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Turning off Intel is the best, that's my conclusion also. In the meantime I have tried several ways to find a workaround (turn off divide pts evenly and such) w/o success. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon8.gif It's impossible to use CI without this kind of semi-cheating, maybe... if you just use one single CI project, but who is brave enough to rely on it. The CI calculation definetely needs to be reviewed, I also refuse to use Intel until it's fixed, it's a pity... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Also, it would be a good idea if you guys could send a mail to MM with complete description of the problem and couple of games as and example. It will help a lot in fixing this problem.

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:
Also, it would be a good idea if you guys could send a mail to MM with complete description of the problem and couple of games as and example. It will help a lot in fixing this problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have done this already , about 3 weeks ago. ...But I will try it again, maybe it has been lost, maybe I'm too insignificant, I don't know...

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Intel & CI is such an interesting part of SE-IV that it seems a shame to not use it.

I've been trying to understand the finer points of CI and have the following questions:


1. Is it true that if you dedicate more points to CI projects than the combined total of opponents intel projects that none of their projects will succeed against you?

2. Do I need a separate CI project for each opponent or are all opposing intel projects treated generically?

3. It seems that if a CI project runs to completion and there are no additional CI projects in my queue, opponent’s intel projects start to succeed against me even though I have plenty of points (this usually happens because I can’t have more than 12 CI-III projects).
Is this an accurate description of reality?

4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?
What I’m suggesting is the creation of a CI–IV project with a cost of something like 20M points. This project would reside in the intel queue and be responsible for all CI.
If you want to dedicate all of your points to CI, put this project at the head of the queue.
If you want to run offensive intel, put the CI-IV project at the tail of the queue.
In either case, the ‘distribute evenly’ option should be disabled.
I’ve tried this and it doesn’t feel like cheating. Please let me know what you think.

5. If the idea listed above makes sense, what is an appropriate setting for the ‘Effect Amount’ field in this new CI-IV project?
Does this field determine how many opponent projects are countered?
If so, then this value should be a large number (12 projects from 20 opponents).
Why does this limit exist?

6. Is it possible to extend the intel queue beyond 12 projects?
The current limit of 12 projects seems ridiculous for a galactic superpower.
The limiting factor should be intel points, not a hard-coded number of projects.

7. Is it possible to view all intel projects on a single page?
Maybe a scrollable table with the following fields:
Project-name Target-opponent Cost %-complete Months-to-complete

8. Is it possible to have more information in the log related to completed projects?
For example, it would be nice to have a single log message for CI listing all opponent projects defeated (detail like this exists for combat log Messages).

9. Is it possible to alter ‘Puppet Political Parties’ so that populations become angry before a coup?
It seems pretty unreasonable that a planet of 8 billion Jubilant people would suddenly rebel in a month’s time.
If a successful PPP project decreased happiness and only caused rebellion on angry planets, it would give the player a chance to correct the situation (i.e. troops, temporal vacation facilities, etc.).

Sorry for the long-winded post.
Please let me know if you think any of these ideas have merit.

Thanx.

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

I've barely begun to try to understand CI, but I'll take a few shots at the easy answers. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought that was the purpose of the more expensive CI-2 and CI-3. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>6. Is it possible to extend the intel queue beyond 12 projects?
The current limit of 12 projects seems ridiculous for a galactic superpower.
The limiting factor should be intel points, not a hard-coded number of projects.

7. Is it possible to view all intel projects on a single page?
Maybe a scrollable table with the following fields:
Project-name Target-opponent Cost %-complete Months-to-complete

8. Is it possible to have more information in the log related to completed projects?
For example, it would be nice to have a single log message for CI listing all opponent projects defeated (detail like this exists for combat log Messages).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>These are all hard-coded design decisions; they could be changed in theory, but I'd rather see programming time devoted to bug-swatting and new features. The numbers were likely picked for convenience; there's no "realism" reasons for them, but having standardized interface windows saves coding time. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 9. Is it possible to alter ?Puppet Political Parties? so that populations become angry before a coup?
It seems pretty unreasonable that a planet of 8 billion Jubilant people would suddenly rebel in a month?s time.
If a successful PPP project decreased happiness and only caused rebellion on angry planets, it would give the player a chance to correct the situation (i.e. troops, temporal vacation facilities, etc.).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a good idea that's been suggested before.

------------------
Cap'n Q


[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 06 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 06 May 2001).]

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

One more time: Puppet Political Parties is just that. NOT a rebbelion, but a political party (or leader)friendly to you inserted into power. No reason for the populace to become angry before it hits.

Phoenix-D

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

I have made extended tests with several human controlled empires, so I had the control over every action and reaction. But I have to say: Errare humanum est... I could be wrong with some observations:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skigrinder:

1. Is it true that if you dedicate more points to CI projects than the combined total of opponents intel projects that none of their projects will succeed against you?

2. Do I need a separate CI project for each opponent or are all opposing intel projects treated generically?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All of the accumulated CI points defeat against every (more than one) attack, even from several empires in the same turn, even if the CI points are distributed to 12 projects.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skigrinder:
3. It seems that if a CI project runs to completion and there are no additional CI projects in my queue, opponent’s intel projects start to succeed against me even though I have plenty of points (this usually happens because I can’t have more than 12 CI-III projects).
Is this an accurate description of reality?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, my opinion to it is this: A CI project where you have spent points for should stay, never be completed, even if it's full. If Intel attacks occur, they should SUBSTRACT from the CI stack. If the stack is empty, intel attacks should be successful.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skigrinder:
4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?
What I’m suggesting is the creation of a CI–IV project with a cost of something like 20M points. This project would reside in the intel queue and be responsible for all CI.
If you want to dedicate all of your points to CI, put this project at the head of the queue.
If you want to run offensive intel, put the CI-IV project at the tail of the queue.
In either case, the ‘distribute evenly’ option should be disabled.
I’ve tried this and it doesn’t feel like cheating. Please let me know what you think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As it is now, you have a problem with it, because sometimes, I have seen it with every 2nd attack, the CI project will be completed. All your accumulated points so far would be gone, very dissatisfying if you have accumulated 200,000 points and loose them against a 5,000 point attack. But I think it would be a good idea, if Intel would work like my statement before (No. 3).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skigrinder:
5. If the idea listed above makes sense, what is an appropriate setting for the ‘Effect Amount’ field in this new CI-IV project?
Does this field determine how many opponent projects are countered?
If so, then this value should be a large number (12 projects from 20 opponents).
Why does this limit exist?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know the meaning of 'Effect Amount' but IIRC from former test runs with several empires attacking at once, more opponent attacks are countered than this value. But I have to check this... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif

6. to 8. Good ideas, would be an improvement to the game (Edit: ...but shouldn't be highest priority)

First of all, I hope the Intel problems are going to be solved in one of the next patches... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/rolleyes.gif


[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 06 May 2001).]

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Have we heard from MM on this? I think each person playing the game has their own answer to the question of how Intel & Counter-Intel work. It would be nice to know the "real" answer...

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

Thanks for the reminder. It seems like it was only just yesterday we were waiting for patch 4 to come out so we could re-test the Counter-Intelligence weirdness and email Malfador. Maybe this weekend I'll send an email to Malfador. Did you already test this and send an email to Malfador DirectorTsaarx?

Re: Counter Intelligence
 

I haven't had time to play in over a week; I'm barely able to keep up with the board http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif. Heck, I haven't even loaded v1.35 yet... I downloaded the patch, but I wanted to finish a couple things in a 1.30 game first. I should just quit & restart with a 1.35 game (and just as I was about to finish my three ringworlds in a trinary star system... sigh...)