Re: Primitive cultures
 

Don't think that could be inmplemented without Hard Code changes.

The motivation to conquer them rather than glass them is the population (which may breathe a different atmosphere to your own remember). Oh, and that some of us like to play "ethically" as well=-)

When I initially though of this idea I imagined it as a kind of ruins planet that gave you population instead of tech. I have all sorts of other grand plans to do with population (see the current expansion pack thread) and this fits right in with them.

Besides, you wouldn't glass a whole planet of defenceless Ewoks would you? You heartless bast@rd...

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Me? Glass poor defenseless people? What kind of despot do you think I am?

Re: Primitive cultures
 

I like it...especially if you consider it a 'Population Ruins' kinda' thing. It could give you the aditional atmosphere 'ability' at a low cost (when compared to 'non-primative' AI). ...a Cache of 'slave resources' if you like...

DISCLAIMER: As long as you can get the AI to use it also....

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Well, it would depend on the AI. Most computer players go for complete extermination, but some of them seem happy to accept surrenders. They do tend to attack homeworlds on first contact though, so I'm thinking a "primitive" AI would hope to encounter a human player before a computer one.

It would be interesting to see how people treated the primitives. For example if I encountered one in my space and I didn't need the population/ planet too badly I would probably get a treaty with them and let them live out their lives independently in the shelter of my empire. (assuming the win conditions allowed it). After all, they're not hurting anyone...

Sometimes I think I'm too nice to be an megalomaniacal interstellar dictator.

***Something else just occurred to me - Once the hard work of creating a "primitives" mod was done, creating primitive races would be easy - no shipsets, no ship design files... just a race portrait, an army graphic and some work on the diplomacy files.

I might have a go at this mod - S_J, do you mind if I use Pirates and Nomads as a template? I'm new to this modding lark http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Primitive cultures
 

Primitive cultures:

I think this could probably be modded without any hard code changes required. It's only a small addition but I think it could add a nice bit of flavour to the game:

They would probably need a special racial trait (a bit like the "Pirate" | "Nomad" | "Normal") and they would only be able to access the "primitive" technologies below.
"Primitive" techs should not be available to "normal" empires.
"Primitive" players should NOT be able to accept any technologies, ships or planets. (So you can't trade them 400 organics for a fleet of battlecruisers, even though it would be really funny=-)
All the primitive technologies should be available from the beginnning of the game.

Primitive technology tree
=========================
Facilities:
Primitive farm: Generates 100 organics per turn.
Primitive mine: Generates 100 minerals per turn
Granary: stores 2000 organics for an empire
Quarry pit: stores 2000 minerals for an empire.
Primitive resupply facility: Tribes people give fresh food and supplies to friendly ships. (we won't ask where they get the depleted uranium shells and spacecraft grade fuel from=-)

Units: (Think of the Ewok battle from Return of the Jedi!)
Warrior Army: A group of warriors armed with primitive weapons. (A small troop unit)

Troop components:
Warrior leader: A warrior general who leads an army into battle.(acts like troop cockpit)
Hand weapons: Simple tools for hunting and hand to hand combat. (troop weapon, low range, low cost, really low damage)
Simple missile weapons: Bows, slings and spears. (troop weapon, medium range, low cost, really low damage)
Stone thrower: Pre-industrial siege weapon (troop weapon, medium range, high cost, low damage)

Obviously these primitive cultures would pose no threat to other empires, but they might slow you down a little if they occupy a strategic planet and you don't have many troops. (Unless you don't mind bombarding millions of defenceless tribespeople from space) Also, they could be useful allies for trade and resupply and once conquered they would supply a useful population boost.


Opinions? Improvements? Anyone think they could mod this?

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: Primitive cultures
 

I would be cool if each of the primitive cultures had a special tech that lead to a unique tech tree. Then there would be reasons to conquer them as opposed to glassing them.

Re: Primitive cultures
 

I was right. I _am_ too nice. The mineral / organic output from a primitive world would only be a few thousand at most - hardly sems worth the effort of subjugating them. I'd rather settle for that warm glowing feeling you get from obeying the prime directive=-)

I quite like the idea of their output being so low as well - you can see on the treay grid who's desperate for resources because they have a trade alliance with the pre-industrials.

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Having promitives would be cool and add more diversity to the universe. Maybe something like 5 primitives in a small map, 10 in a medium, etc. Hey the more races in a game the better. This would also add a new class to the game. You got your main empires then the neutrals and finally the primitives. If you could have racial traits carry over, then you could really make some of the primitive races worthwhile. Imagine a spacialized primitive race of commandoes or miners. That would be pretty cool.

Thoughts?

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Exactly. Thanks Chewy. The only problem with having 5- 10 of them (which would be great) is that they take up an empire each, and I think you can only have around 20 per game max. Ideally you'd have 5-10 native races and *still* have room for all your favourite spacefaring empires=-) Until they are hard- coded I think we'll just have to put up with it.

As for the racial traits... I would *love* to have each species retain it's traits/ characteristics no matter which empire they work for - for example, if I take over a planet load of Phong, they suddenly become better at combat. Does that make sense?

If populations reatined their abilities, I would have to make a choice when colonising a methane intel compound, for example - methane breathers or the ones with +18% intel gathering? Or maybe a mixture of the two?

I would really like to see population handling developed in this game. Read the "expansion pack" thread (and numerous older threads) for my other ideas on this subject.

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: Primitive cultures
 

maybe it should be suggested to MM to implement the primitives. or at least up the number of races allowed per game.

Thoughts?

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Primitive races may not need a player slot if they are treated as 'population ruins' as discussed earlier. If they are truly primitive (in respect to other SE4 players - human and AI), then it stands to reason they would not have ships, bases, and support infrastructure AWA not expanding to other planets or systems. So treat them like a ruin...

I personally see them that way - as free slave labor when treated that way. You (an oxygen race possibly), land on a planet with primitive Hydrogen-breathers. You then convince them (with your God-like abilities) to 'be fruitful and multiply' throughout 'the heavens' aided by your 'devine fire-belching chariots'. Of course, this comes at a cost of being totally dedicated to you and your empire... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Primitive cultures
 

I personall would like to see population have a better role in the game. I have stated this in a number of threads.

Re: Primitive cultures
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Primitive races may not need a player slot if they are treated as 'population ruins' as discussed earlier. If they are truly primitive (in respect to other SE4 players - human and AI), then it stands to reason they would not have ships, bases, and support infrastructure AWA not expanding to other planets or systems. So treat them like a ruin...

I personally see them that way - as free slave labor when treated that way. You (an oxygen race possibly), land on a planet with primitive Hydrogen-breathers. You then convince them (with your God-like abilities) to 'be fruitful and multiply' throughout 'the heavens' aided by your 'devine fire-belching chariots'. Of course, this comes at a cost of being totally dedicated to you and your empire... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VGA Planets had a very good implementation of this. planets could have natives which would function best in their native climates. they could be used for labor or be taxed, but they had a seperate happyness value from your own population, and how hard you worked them had alot to do with it. you could actually have native revolts where indiginous people would fight against your colonists and ground forces.

if i remember right anyhow, its been a long time.

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Hi, I would like to have more 'Unique' facilities, ships, units, whatsoever - a bit like in Star Trek :Birth of the Federation, or the good old Guardion in Master of Orion.

Hopefully those facilities (and other unique things) wont get hardcoded - so that there can be very much of them soon as everybody could design his favorite into the game.

Also the diversity of Random Events could get a good deal with that - like the random appereance of the Battlestar Galactica and some Cylons in the following " http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
A ship called Dark Star pops out of a Warppoint and bLasts a random planet ... hehe

murx

Re: Primitive cultures
 

The battlestar Galactica is a race in the game (if you download the Mod) and I am putting in a lot of side time to develop the cylons to add at a later date.
While random events are not visable actions that you can see, I can add one were a random attack takes out a planet if you like. As it is an event, you will be unable to do anything about it.

Re: Primitive cultures
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I might have a go at this mod - S_J, do you mind if I use Pirates and Nomads as a template? I'm new to this modding lark<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure how you could use my mod to make primitives without taking up a race slot. But you're welcome to try http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I started modding my using the SE4 original "mod" as a template. Just look through the files, copy & paste stuff that looks like it might be cool.
I highly reccommend reading through the abilities.txt file. You can get a lot of ideas from that.

If you use my mod and add an AI player who dosen't have the "Normal" racial trait, you'll get a neutral who lives on only one planet. I'm not sure, but they might also not get any shipyards, so they won't be able to build anything other than units...

Re: Primitive cultures
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
It would be interesting to see how people treated the primitives. For example if I encountered one in my space and I didn't need the population/ planet too badly I would probably get a treaty with them and let them live out their lives independently in the shelter of my empire. (assuming the win conditions allowed it). After all, they're not hurting anyone...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but wouldn't you at least subjugate (sp?) them to have them pay for all the peace and tranquility your empire has so graciously given them? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Primitive cultures
 

Uhh - I never said I wanted to do it without taking up a race slot http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. When I mentioned "Population ruins" I was just trying to describe what I thought the primitives could add to the game - I wasn't suggesting a means of implementing them.

I was thinking of adding a fourth type? "normal", "pirate", "nomad" and "pre- industrial". Give the pre-industrials no access at all to any techs except the farming / mining / storage / resupply / troop techs specifically designed for them.

With no expansion possibilities, no fleets to build and nothing to research all they would do is build huge armies and wait for the spacefarers to arrive. Hopefully after a few dozen turns they would have a formidable ground army waiting to repel invaders and a big store of minerals / organics to trade with. I also think giving them resupply facilities could give them significant diplomatic value in certain situations.

As far as I can see the only really difficult bit (apart from altering pages and pages of txt files=-) would be forcing the game to start primitive planets with the right mix of facility types.

Anyway it sounds like Phoenix-D (Like Enterprise-D? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif) may be working on this mod now so I won't duplicate his efforts. I think his vision is different to mine but that's the price I pay for laziness - It's your baby now Phoenix.

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "