OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

It seems that every time I turn on the news or the radio, people are freaking out due to terrorism threats. Oooh, someone might use liquids to blow up a plane! Oh no, Hezbollah is evil! Etc, etc, ad nauseum. No one seems to understand that extra "security measures" simply play into the hands of these terrorists. Why, you ask? The simple, economical cost of all these security measures costs billions per year. Any idiot knows that if you're trying to hurt a country, you don't try to kill a few thousand of its citizens; that's ineffecient. No, you figure out a way to cost the country billions of dollars. Now that will hurt the country long term! So what's the solution?

Here's my simple solution to the problem:

Get rid of all additional security measures that have been put in since 2001. They're pointless, and they cost a hell of a lot. Don't worry about stopping terrorists.

All you have to do, is when some terrorists go and hijack a plane and plan to go crash it into a building, shoot it down. Fire off a SAM at the aircraft, it'll go down. Its not like it has any electronic countermeasures like modern fighters. No damage to anything except the plane and the people on it. Yes, the people on the plane will die. However, the response to the hijackings is what will ultimately stop these attacks.

Every time some terrorist goes and hijacks a plane and you're forced to blow it out of the sky, you first figure out where the terrorists came from, their home cities. This may take a little bit, but once you figure it out, you destroy one of those cities. Absolutely wipe it off the surface of the Earth. Every time some more terrorists hijack a plane, or blow up a subway system, etc, you wipe out another city. I bet that within 6 months, you won't ever have to worry about terrorist attacks again. After half a dozen of your own planes are shot down by your own missiles, and half a dozen cities are destroyed, no more terrorist attacks will occur.

Now, this may seem heartless and cold-blooded. It probably is. But it'll work. It would probably save more domestic lives in the long term, and will cost a lot less in the long term as well. What do you guys think; would it work and is it practical. What are your solutions to the terrorist problems (which are, admittedly, blown out of all proportion by the media)?

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

You also lose whatever the plane happens to crash into, of course (commonly a field, forest, or suburb).

a) It would work on one front for a little while. Yes, you would cut down on terrorist attacks, until they started basing themselves elsewhere. You know, fairly populus areas, under the "control" of people that can't do much about the area, surrounded by lots and lots of civilians. Sure, you could still try it... but that just makes (b) much worse:
b) You're going to anger a LOT of people doing this. Seriously. A LOT. Entire countries, along with their militaries. You're wiping out an entire city to get at... what, one or two hundred people? Who will probably catch on, and move between when they train up the person on the suicide mission and when that person actually goes on the suicide mission. You will have 0 sympathy after the first such strike you make.

My advice? Arm the populace. Entirely. Every man and woman old enough to be drafted (assuming, of course, that women could be drafted). Train everyone in the proper use of firearms (including storeage; distribute lock-boxes and proper belts/holsters as well), and encourage them to be carried everywhere (including airplanes). Stress the reason for this (strangely, it doesn't evem need to be true, as long as the untrustworthy can be convinced of it.....): Most citizens are trustworthy about anything important; it is every citizens' duty to help defend the country when the need arises, and every citizens' right to defend themselves against illegal lethal threats. Tell me, how do you hijack a plane by force when you're outnumbered a hundred to one by people who know that your victory means not only their deaths, but the deaths of hundreds of others, and everyone's armed?

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

The "war on terrorism" is an excuse to create a security industry, further dominate the US public, and other political reasons.

Attacks like plane hijacking can be countered just as effectively without the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, color-coded alert levels, or goofball airport security.

Anti-aircraft measures is another possible idea that could help against a 9/11 attack, but won't help the planes much. Cockpits could be made more secure though. More intelligent and less obtrusive airport security could also help (have smart well-trained people rather than rent-a-guards with silly searches that include grandmothers and everyone's shoes and liquids...).

Wiping out entire foreign towns because a "terrorist" came from it would just make the USA into a far more blatantly detestable empire than it already is, even more than suicide bombers who target civilians, and would be less effective at making the nation safe, because then more civilized sane people would want to destroy the USA too.

Guns on airliners doesn't seem like a great idea, since using them would tend to damage the plane, and make it easier for anyone to cause chaos in the air. Maybe give all passengers access to a spray gun that shoots immobilizing security foam, instead.

PvK

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Not to mention sudden depressurization of the passenger cabin when someone starts shooting. Might have some problems there, but other than that, go for it.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

^^^^
What he said.


Or, as I like to put it, the goal of the "war on terror" is to keep the "war on terror" going.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Tazers. The ones where the electrodes shoot out.

Doesn't damage the plane and probably still lethal from sheer numbers.

'Kill them all' is a terrorist threat.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Oh come on we all know that Terrorism is just something that someone made up in order to sell T-shirts!

Seriously I agree with the nuts that they know where Bin Laden is but won't go get him because that would erode any and all political necessity for continuing the "war on terror."

That they knew where Sarcowie (sp) was all along but waited until the need was great enough politically, to kill that fat bastard extremist.

It takes a well funded and semi well trained group of fanaticial terrorists to take over a plane and I seriously doubt that Grandma and her sun tan lotion is part of the master plan.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Once you have the fanatical terrorist, it actually doesn't cost as much as you might think.

You need:
One computer capable of running a flight simulator.
One flight simulator program.
Enough plane tickets to get your crew aboard the plane.
Enough weapons to arm your crew.

The planes used in the 9/11/01 attacks flew low so they could FOLLOW THE FREEWAYS! Landing and taking off is the difficult part. Not the flying (many airlines actually have a computer do most the in-flight flying anymore, excepting some things from the air traffic controllers about specific routes due to other planes and the like). The hijackers didn't have to deal with either landing or taking off, nor pre-flight checklists, nor dealing with air-traffic control, or.....

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Right now you also need:

One way to convince the passengers not to kill your ***.

or you get one crashed plane and nothing else. 200v5, 200 wins unless the 5 manage to sneak something really nasty past security.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

do like the romans did - show up, kill all the men, enslave the women and children, and sow the fields with salt.

you didn't see anyone crashing planes into the parthenon did you???

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Considering that strategy got the Romans overwhelemed with barbarian hordes.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

No, you saw rebel slave armies rampaging around the countryside instead.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I seem to recall an idea to fit passenger planes with countermeasures. I guess it wouldn't be military grade but if the terrorists get into the cockpit they'd have some sort of defence. For the record I agree with the idea of shooting down captured planes. It seems harsh, but once the terorists get the plan the passenegrs are going to die anyway.

Edit: incidentally the Romans did more than was just mentioned. Perhaps I take too much from Sword and Sandal epics but didn't they also crucify everyone and plant them along the highway, 1 every 100 mentres. I am reading an alt-hist novel at the moment where they crucify criminals along the Thames. After 2000 years they have mechanical crosses.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Yeah, because that policy has really worked for the Isrealis. They've been bulldozing entire towns in resonse to terrorist action for years, and that hasn't escalated the hatred and inspired more terrorists at all. No. Not at all. Not one.

(In case you missed it, that was sarcasm.)

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I think we should disband the entire western news network, that way we'd defeat the terrorists' greatest ally.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Not just the western media. I often wonder when they say the terorists have a new statement on Al Jazeera why they allow them to show it then. Maybe Al Jazeera is related to Al Qaida, they both start with Al http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (This is a joke. I tried to learn Arabic once. Al is the equivalent of A/The. Other than that I just know the rules for vowels)

Actually has anyone heard the Billy Connolly joke. He points out the terorists use Stanley knives (Box cutters) and they all come from places ending in Stan. Thats who we should be after. Stan. Stan BinLaden.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Which would you rather have freedom or the illusion of safety?


How do flees kill a horse? They bite it until it dies of exhaustion from slapping, stomping, and kicking at the pest.

The 9/11 terror attack killed less than 3000 people. About 40,000 are killed yearly in car accidents in the US.


Blowing up hometowns of terrorist wouldn’t work. Wasn’t London the hometown to at lest one of the London transit bombers?

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Yah, the question is how much of our freedom we're willing to sacrifice for an increase in the chance of stopping the rare terrorist attack. Having my country turned into a police state with surveillance everywhere is unacceptable for me, but that is the way it's heading. If we continue in this direction then the terrorists have already won. It's not about killing people, it's about spreading terror, obviously, and we've long since taken the bait.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

It'd be hard to miss that sarcasm, it was kinda like being whacked in the head with a board labelled "sarcasm" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif . My "suggestions" in the original post weren't really intended to be exact replicas of what I actually want done. If I was president of the US, it's not what I'd want to have done. The post was more intended to draw attention to alternatives, and stimulate conversation on those possibilities and the pros and cons of said policies. What I stated was a possibility, albeit an extreme one. It's not how I actually think we should deal with the so-called "terrorist threat".

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Can't always tell over the internet.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

To the people who seemingly hate Israel and enjoy blaming them, please answer my questions if you would be so kind. Tell me where I am going wrong here. To me it seems that your picking on Israel just for the sake of doing so. I fail to see why some, mostly anti-jewish racists blame Israel for all the problems in that region. I don't see the Israel blowing up bus loads of kids, or markets full of people. The last time I looked it wasn't an Israel luanching rockets into Isreal or an Israel strapping a suicide pack on and blowing up a check point and detonating a car bomb. Forgive me for saying this but I don't recall ever reading about or hearing of an Israel beheading inocent people or hijacking planes, flying planes into the ground, buildings, or ordering them to land in terrorist supportive nations and then executing inocent people to get fuel.

No if your going to blame Israel for all the problems in the middle east, then why not just say what you really think, that Hitler should have killed them all when he got the chance and that the Arabs are Gods chosen people to finish what Hitler failed too do. Just be honest, your a racist and enjoy blaming the victim for when the victim fights back against his attacker and or assualter. Then again I could be really off base here and in need of being corrected. The way I am seeing it is that most of the people who are against israel just hate jews and want to see them destroyed. To me that is racisim and it is wrong.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

In their latest conflict, Israel and Hezbollah both acted like terrorist groups. Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers, launched rockets at civilians, etc. Everyone has to admit that those are terrorist actions.

However, look at what Israel did. Israel didn't launch rockets, no. Instead, they dropped bombs. They blew up hospitals for fu**s sake! They destroyed bridges, roads, power plants, hospitals, everything. Just how many Lebanese civilians, as well as the civilians of other nations (Canadians and Americans even) did Israel kill? Close to a thousand?

They're both terrorist organizations, the only difference is that one is supported materially and politically by the US, and is therefore portrayed as the "good guys" in American media.

There were no good guys in the last round of fighting. No one had the ideological high ground.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Um, Hezbollah attacked them by committing a terrorist act. They have every right to respond. Those roads, bridges, and buildings that were bombed were destroyed in order to help slow the rearming and escape of Hezbollah terrorists. In war, bridge, roads, rails, cars, and buildings are often destroyed dilibrately. It is not Israel's fault that the terroristed used hospitals as bases of operations thus putting inocent, and not so inocent, Lebanese in harms way. In war people die, that is fact. Choosing a side souly because you hate jews is simply wrong.

Israel is a soverign state, a nation, Hezbollah is neither a state nor a nation, they are a terroristic military force answerable not to the Lebanese, but to the Sirans and Iranians.

And honestly, who the hell are you, who the hell are we, to judge Israel? Do you live there? Have you lived there? You, and indeed all of us, do not know anything about what it is like to live in that region and therefor have no right too pass judgement on those who live there. Hezbollah attacked and drew first blood. If I am not mistaken, that is an act of war is it not? And I promis you, since they got away with what they did, they will rearm and do it all over again.

And will you be their to critize Israel when they respond?

I agree.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Lebanon is a nation too, even if there happen to be radicals there firing rockets into Israel. The Israeli attacks on targets in Lebanon looks extremely close to the suggestion Renegade 13 exageratedly made, except perhaps worse in that Israel attacks towns where they claim rockets come from, even if the attackers don't come from that town, but just stop there to fire rockets before moving on.

Israeli tactics would get a lot more sympathy from me if, when Lebanon fails to stop rocket attacks from within its borders, it duly notified Lebanon and then sent in men to find and shoot the actual attackers, instead of deciding to treat practically the entire population of Southern Lebanon (as well as UN observers...) as if it were hostile.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

And "farce" is the right word for the terror alert system.

http://www.gregpalast.com/so-osama-w...o-this-bar-see

According to the press office from the Department of Homeland Security, lowered-threat Yellow means that there were no special inspections of passengers or cargo. Isn’t it nice of Mr. Bush to alert Osama when half our security forces are given the day off? Hmm. I asked an Israeli security expert why his nation doesn’t use these pretty color codes.

He asked me if, when I woke up, I checked the day’s terror color.

“I can’t say I ever have. I mean, who would?”

He smiled. “The terrorists.”

America is the only nation on the planet that kindly informs bombers, hijackers and berserkers the days on which they won’t be monitored. You’ve got to get up pretty early in the morning to get a jump on George Bush’s team.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

First off, this is an insulting accusation, I have absolutely no prejudice against Jews. The fact that I don't agree with you, and I don't believe that Israel can do no wrong doesn't make me an Anti-Semite.

Um, Hezbollah attacked them by committing a terrorist act. They have every right to respond.

I agree, Hezbollah "started it", and Israel had to respond. I'm saying their response was out of proportion to the original attack.

Those roads, bridges, and buildings that were bombed were destroyed in order to help slow the rearming and escape of Hezbollah terrorists. In war, bridge, roads, rails, cars, and buildings are often destroyed dilibrately. It is not Israel's fault that the terroristed used hospitals as bases of operations thus putting inocent, and not so inocent, Lebanese in harms way. In war people die, that is fact.

So you're saying that, no matter where the terrorists are, you have to blow your way through innocents to get at them? Did any of the bombings Israel did stop Hezbollah from firing rockets? Nope, they accelerated towards the end. Bombing roads just stopped innocent people from getting away from the fighting, and prevented aid workers from getting in to help the aforementioned innocents. I also agree that, in war, a country's infrastructure will always be a target. But ask yourself this: Did Israel declare war on Lebanon, which owns all the infrastructure? I thought they declared war on a terrorist group. So go kill the terrorists, don't go rampaging through the entire country blowing hell out of everything just because you can!

I'm also not saying it's Israel's fault that Hezbollah holed up in hospitals, and I know that some collateral damage is to be expected in any military campaign. But hospitals? Come on. You don't just go in and blow up a hospital because you suspect (yes, suspect, not know) that some terrorists might be using it as a base. Supposedly, the reason for fighting terrorists is to stop innocent people from being killed. Yet, if you kill innocent people to prevent innocent people from being killed, are you actually accomplishing anything? Oh right, I forgot, they're not your innocents, so they don't count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

And honestly, who the hell are you, who the hell are we, to judge Israel? Do you live there? Have you lived there? You, and indeed all of us, do not know anything about what it is like to live in that region and therefor have no right too pass judgement on those who live there.

I have every right to pass judgement on what those groups do there. It is my right to form my opinions based upon the facts, and to decide who is and is not "right" or "wrong" after analyzing those facts.

But lets say you're right. Lets say I don't have any right to pass judgement. Then what right does the US government, or any government, have the right to pass judgement on what happened there? What gives them the right to demand this and that and the other thing, while I don't have the right to even decide on my own who is right and who is wrong!!??

Did you ever experience what it was like to live in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany? No, you haven't. Yet I bet you've passed judgement on the Germans of the era for what they did there. What gives you the right to do that, if I don't have the right to judge the Israeli's and Hezbollah??

And I promis you, since they got away with what they did, they will rearm and do it all over again.

And due to how Israel acted this latest time, they'll have more support than ever. Don't you think that Israel bombing hospitals and bridges and roads and power plants might effect how well their recruiting amongst the Lebanese people will go once "next time" rolls around? Israel just shot themselves in the foot with how they acted.

[b]And will you be their to critize Israel when they respond?[b]

If they act the same way as they did this time, and act no better than terrorists themselves, then yes, I'll be there to criticize Israel again. Yet you seem to be missing someting; I wasn't blaming Israel for everything, I said they had to share some of the blame for this most recent mess.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Sorry Ren, I was speaking in general terms and not directing the comment at you personally. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I tend to agree.

I agree that our opinions are based mostly on the facts that we do have, but honestly speaking, when most of those facts are being fed to us peacemeal through a strongly anti-israeli news media, then those facts by which we form our opinion flaw our opinion.

Our government, indeed all governments have the right to be concerned and involved in the peace process, and form a political judgement based upon the facts at hand. That is what we and many other countries have elected our governments to do. To act on our behalf in world affairs that ultimately could and will involve us politically. Our government, right or wrong, is the primary supporter of Israel and that is, above all else, why the Arab terrorists, and most Arabs in general, dislike us. They hate the jews, abo****ely 100% hate them and wish them all dead. We support Israel so the old saying, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy is the idology by which we Americans are now being condemed.

As to passing judgement on what the Germans of WWII aloud and did do to the Jews, you are correct, I have passed judgement against them. What they did, and aloud to happen, was wrong morally in so many ways that not passing judgement about the acts perpitrated against the Jews would in and of itself be criminal. That is why many Germans were tried and later executed for war crimes. The entire WORLD passed judgement upon them.

"The highest courage is to be yourself in the face of adversity, choosing right from wrong, ethics over convenience, and truth over popularity. These are the choices that measure your life. Travel the path of integrity without looking back, for thre is never a wrong time to do the right thing." - Unknown.

My apologies. Your statement here is most accurate. Israel should have been the adult here and first worked through Lebenon (sp) before invading their nation. Right of defense aside, that would have been the best political course of action.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Here's an interesting story

tea party

It seems to me that Lebanon is at least partly to blame. If terrorists in a neighbouring country are launching rockets at you and that country doesn't attempt or is unable to stop them it can only be expected you take things into your own hands.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Who won the war? No one did! All sides lost more than they gained.
Stay tuned for the next war same place within a decade.


Oddly enough, Israel is probably the cause of more peace in the Middle East than war. They are strong enough that other don’t attack them lightly. They give the other Middle East groups something other than each other to focus on. Do you think for a second that if Israel suddenly disappeared that there would be peace in the Middle East?

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Normally we see pretty well eye to eye AT, I'm really disappointed that I have to come down on you like this, but you are out of line.

There's a big gap between "I disagree with the way Israel handles its foreign policy" and "I hate all jews". Don't call people racists without cause, it only pisses them off and makes you look stupid.


Then you're not looking. The Israelis have been known to destroy entire towns in response for terrorist bombings. And no, before you start, this doesn't mean I am a supporter of terrorism or a Nazi or anything like that. I abhor terrorists, but I also abhor Israel's brutality. They have done as much to escalate the conflict as anyone else. Both sides are guilty.

I hereby invoke Godwin's law. You lose.

No, you be honest. You are an idiot who finds it easier to call anyone who disagrees with you 'Hitler' than to look at the shades of grey in-between the two extremes of the debate. It's that kind of polarised, extremist, de-humanising thinking in the west, in Israel and in the islamic extremists that has caused all this [censored] in the first place.

OK, fair enough so far, but then you go on to say...

Aren't you doing here to Hezbollah exactly what you just criticised others for doing to Israel? Hypocrisy much?

EDIT: Fixed formatting, that's all.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

No problem Atrocities, misunderstandings happen all too frequently over the internet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I am very dissapointed in you dogscoff. I feel that I am entitled to my opinion, and my comment were a generalized statement designed to promote honest discussion, based in part on ligitimate opinions, points of view, and a logical conclusions relating to racism. Since my statements were generalized and not directed at any one personally, I must surrender to the fact that in any debate people get angry and regrettably sometimes resort to flaming. I believe that you could have made your counter points without personal insults. I would have preferred that you would had offer proof to support your statements rather than flaming me, however you didn't, and I feel that the personal attack toward me was unwarrented. You make several good points to which I would like to respond.

While I agree with your statement about "big gaps" I have to point out that I was specifically refering to people who do hate all jews in general and that their position is one of racism. If that pisses them off, then they are the ones who look stupid because racism in general is indeed stupid.

Can I ask you if there is any proof that Israel dilibrately used terrorist bombs to blow up school buses and markets filled with women, children, and inocent people? Bulldozing a building that has been repeatedly used by terrorists is not an act of terroism, it is an act of defense. I would like to point out that bulldozing a building or leveling several buildings, is not brutality when it is in response to terrorist attacks that have injured and killed inocent civilans. While both sides are pretty much fed up with each other, this does not give them each a moral high ground. I agree, they are both to blame for the escalation in violence and are both to blame for not working together to resolve their differance. Israel could have recognized the new Palistenian (sp) government and continued to give them the money owed, something that might have averted these most recent acts of anger on both sides. While the new government of Palistine and Lebenon could have maintained better control over their terrorist militias and prevented the kidnappings.

I did not call any one Hitler. Please get your facts strait before flaming me.

One of those shades of grey that you spoke of is the shade that is racist. There is no denying that racism is playing a part here. The Arabs absolutely hate the jews and as stated by the Iranian president, should be wiped out.

Israel did not start terrorism, nor have they resorted to it. So blaming them for terrorism is again something that I feel only a person who lacks the facts would do. Or to be brutally honest, who knows they lack the facts but does it anyways because they hate israel.

While some that hate israel are racists who do wish all jews would die, many people just dislike them and are not racists. They dislike them for whatever reason and often, more than not, blame them for all the woes in the middle east. Often without proof to back up said claims. But hey, that is their right, and they are entitled to their opinions, however, if they are racist against the jews, then they should be honest enough to come out and say so. All because I believe that this is what they should do if they are indeed racist, doesn't make me an "idiot" or "stupid."


What did I accuse others of doing to Israel?

In general I believe that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and given their statements and radicalized points of view, it is only logical, and I might add widely agreed upon, that they will attack again because they feel that they got away with it this time. Now I pray that they see the light and don't, but I honestly believe that that they will attack again.

Edit: spelling correction or two.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I guess this depends on your definition of terrorism. With reference to Israel's latest conflict with Hezbollah, Israel did commit terrorist acts, in my opinion. Blowing up hospitals is, under my definition, a terrorist act. I don't care if it was being used by Hezbollah, blowing up a hospital full of sick, injured people, innocent people, just to get at Hezbollah is not tolerable. You can not defeat terrorist groups by becoming like them; for if you do, how are you any better than what you have attacked?

With reference to your statement about all this happening again AT, I agree. It is inevitable that conflict will continue in that region of the world. I think that the only way it will ever stop is for one group or the other to completely and utterly annihilate the other. Israelis and Arabs have a history of violence towards each other going back 5000 years. That many generations of senseless violence simply won't be overcome, not until one or the other are gone for good.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

You make a good point about distinction between terrorism and terror. While I do not know for certain that Israel bombed a hospital, I will speculate that if they did do so, that they did so for a reason and that for the most part the people in that hospital were given advanced notice. I do not believe that Hezbollah gave any advanced notice to any Israeli before their rockets struck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Hezbollah uses people as human shields and they are the ones that should be blamed for the colateral damage, not Israel. Israel may have dropped the bomb, but it was Hezbollah that made it a target, and did so knowing that inocent people would die as a result. If Israel did not attack these human shielded bases of Hezbollah operations, then this tactic of using inocent people as human shields would become standard operating proceedure in Hezbollahs play book.

I would like to point out that in many instances following a terrorist attack in many countries over the years, many inocent people have died as a result of that countries efforts to end the terrorist siege. Russa, Germany, England, spain, and even France have all been forced to do things for the greater good that in the short term killed inocent people. This is most unfortunate and most regrettable and should never be taken or accepted as affordable losses. In that regard Israel did go to great lengths by dropping fliers to warn people to leave and or evacuate prior to any bombings.

As to whether or not they should have dropped those bombs I can only say that I wish that they had found other ways to achieve their objective other than destroying the homes and infastructure of inocent people being used by the terrorist group Hezbollah during their unprovoked assualt on Israel.

EDIT:
I would also like to point out that if Hezbollah is saying that Israel bombed a hospitol full of injured people that it could be a set up. Hell for all we know, and according to at least one news organization and blogger, Hezbollah has doctored up photo's, used many people several times, a women crying infront of a bombed out building, and then the same women as a victim of a bombing. A man as a rescue worker then was shown as a dead victim following a bombing, then seen again as a supporter of Hezbollah. I choose not to believe anything that comes from Hezbollah and question any news report that indicates that Israel intentionally bombed a hospital full of injuried people. Chance are that the source for that news came directly from Hezbollah and therefore is questionable even if reported by a lagitimate news organization. Look at all the things they have gotten wrong in recent days to know that even the best news organizations can be dupped. All I am saying is keep an open mind and take nothing on face value. There is more to be gained by propoganda than by truth. And truth is often harder to come by in the face of a well organized campaign of propoganda. In war the truth is often the first casualty.

Israel had nothing to gain by alledgely bombing a hospitol full of injured people so I don't buy that they did so. If they did bomb it, I do not believe that it was a benevolant act.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I thought I would walk into a hornets nest when I read the title, and I was right... A few comments:

1) It is entirely misleading to say "Hezbollah started it!" or "Israel started it!". If you say the first, try standing in the shoes of the Hezbollah fighters, think what they were thinking; why did they kidnap Israeli soldiers? To think that it is only because all Arabs (or even these particular Arabs) are racist pricks that hate Jews and Israel is both naïve and racist. Far more likely is anger at Lebannese prisoners still being held in Israel from the occupation of Lebannon circa 1982 during the Israeli invasion of southern Lebannon, up to the withdrawl in 2000. In fact, that's the reason that Hezbollah stated was the reason for kidnapping what they considered to be enemy combatants. You can follow such tit-for-tat events all the way back to the end of the first World War, when the West cut up the Middle East after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and began meddling in politics in the region ever since. There really isn't anything resembing a Western democracy in the Middle East precisely because we never let it happen. It is much easier to get what you want out of a dictator than a slow deliberation in a Parliment or Congress.

2) Yes, the "War on Terror" is a farce. It's the only reason Bush Jr. got re-elected in 2004, and it creates lots of cushy jobs for people throughout the defense sector. I worked for a defense company this summer in fact, and I can tell you it is a cabal. Once you're "in", you will always be in. If there isn't enough jobs to go around, the higher up leadership will take every opportunity they can to create more. After the Cold War ended, there was pressure to cut down on massive military spending, since we didn't have the big boogeyman of Communist Russia to fear anymore. Terrorism was the perfect replacement, since there isn't really any chance that it can be erradicated. So, it keeps the leadership of the country in power because all you need to do is cause people to fear becoming overrun by terrorists if the way things are done changes to what The Other Guy wants. And it keeps the money coming into the military-industrial complex. Ike must be rolling in his grave right now, because it seems no one listened to his warnings.

3) How to really stop terrorism: another Marshall Plan, this time for Africa and the Middle East. Instead of destroying infrastructure, rebuild it. Get reliable transportation, power, and communication to the urban centers, and then expand it out into the rural areas. Fund education in the urban centers, for both boys and girls; there it will be more likely to be accepted. Elsewhere, education will be opposed by extremists, and will be impossible to undertake. Curriculum should consist of basic knowledge of science and mathematics in the Western tradition, as well as local art and literature, regional and world history, and the culture's religious texts (will be helpful to start out with a peaceful religious message, to make it harder for a violent message to take over religious discourse). Young children will be taught in the local language, and as they progress, the "language of business" (i.e. English) and other languages will be taught. Make it known in the countryside that there is education for all available, and set up temporary shelters for the people that will migrate toward the urban centers, until they can settle somewhere around the cities. Allow the population to arm themselves, and train locals to handle their own security. After about five years of relying on Western support for security logistics, there should be enough experience for locals to handle logistical security ops. As the cities are being rebuilt, leave the countryside to the warlords and extremists, it is too difficult do defend such a dispersed area, and as the cities are built up, all those that migrated to the urban areas for a chance at a better life will begin moving outward to reclaim their countries.

If these things are done with full faith, I see no reason why we cannot have peaceful thriving societies in the Middle East within a decade of the program's start. As the cities thrive, I see no reason why there cannot be peace in the Middle East within 30 years. And if there is a flaw in my thinking, please point it out to me, so I can fix it before I take over the world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

I do believe that our special forces knows right where Bin Laden is, but are prohibitted from going in and getting him because to do so would effectively casterate the "war on terror."

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Well said, Will.

Hate does not exist in a vacuum, and hate doesn't just spring out of nothing. Hate has to have a cause. I think that maybe people should start looking for that cause for themselves, rather than relying on the soundbites that pass as news these days. I reccomend watching Peace, Propoganda and the Promised Land, as a start.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Will, as someone not familiar with American culture or history like I should be...who was "Ike"??? I've heard the name before, but in reference to what, I can't remember.

Also, I think your plan could work, but I think it would take longer than 30 years. Maybe 50. There's bound to be some massive snags along the way.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Whoops. Probably most people in the world over about the age of 40 would recognize the nickname "Ike"... but that still leaves out the majority of the world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ike was the nickname for Dwight D. Eisenhower. Supreme Commander of American forces in Europe during WWII, 34th President of the United States, among other notable positions. He famously warned in his farewell address to the nation that the growing military-industrial complex in the United States posed a major threat to our way of life.

Also, while the year count is fungible, I think that 30 years of ... all that stuff, would be a conservative estimate. I'm not looking for utopia here, I'm just saying after that amount of time, it would be reasonable to expect that there will be no national conflicts and no discernable threat of national conflicts in the area. There won't be an ending to attacks and bombings by militant fringe groups, but those still exist in the US and Europe, as well. As I see it, 30 years is enough time for two generations to go through a minor cultural shift where it becomes difficult to convince young men to kill people and blow themselves up. A span of 50 years would basically flush out most of the population that had their formative years during the time before the plan's implementation. I do not have much personal experience with Arab, Turkish, or Persian cultures to know how much of an influence the elder population has, but I would guess it is not sufficient to continue wars when the younger population fighting those wars are finding it harder to believe the reasons for fighting said wars.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Blowing a hole in the pentagon was an excellent strategy -- how else would you get an entire nation so freaked out that they accept a Federal Police force (Homeland Security)? Oh and let's not forget the dark images of mail bombs full of anthrax, just before they trotted out to take over and 'set things right' for our own good. Funny, I never had a problem with anthrax or terrorist bombings before, until they came along to fix it.

BTW, has anyone noticed how much talk there is lately about 9/11/01 and terrorism, an event that took place five years ago? Odd...I wonder if it's the same people who contaminated the word 'conspire'.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

It's because the anniversary is approaching, and multiples of five and ten get extra attention.

Personally, I think the reason 9/11 conspiracy theories gain traction is because we Americans are so damned naive and ignorant of the outside world. We can't imagine why anyone would hate us enough to be willing to die to make a point, but we know our own leaders well enough to imagine how they could benefit from such an attack.

The media was massively "surprised" by 9/11, despite the fact that anti-terrorism experts had been predicting something of its scale for decades. (Hint: terrorism did not only start five years ago.)

The only thing I found surprising about 9/11 was that the perpetrators were organized enough to pull off taking four planes at once.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Here's an interesting little video on the Illuminati.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

You know, I hate to be the one to point this out, but has anyone thought that maybe the US government does konw where Bin Laden is, but has better reasons for not going and getting him besides the desire to continue the so called "War on Terror?"

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Like what?

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Because bin Laden is actually an alien from Belteguse V, and posesses a most extraordinary book containing all the known knowledge of the universe. He also happens to possess a spaceship that turns any attackers into a potted plant and a beluga whale.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Then we need to find him before the earth is destroyed by the Vogons.

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

...Before?...

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Wait, are you trying to imply that the Earth has already been destroyed by the Vorgons? That would explain a few things.....

Re: OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce
 

Mice know things unkown by man or cat.

Such as...LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU!!!

No, not you, him!!!!

Too late. The vaccuum salesman has got him. Soon, the torture shall begin.