Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Here's a question. What happens in real-life when you capture an enemy ship or base. One of the most important things is the recovery of inteligence information, like maps, troops movements, communications codes. As an example from real-life, when the U.S. captured the U-505 in WWII, they captured an enigma machine and were able to listen to German U-Boat orders and reports, which helped sink the U-Boats.

Has anyone thought to add something like this to SEIV. Like when you capture a ship, you are able to see where all of the ships belonging to your enemy are, along with the cargo and components of the ships, plus it's status. Same with planets, you would see what is on all or some of the enemy's planets and what they are building. It could also act like the intel op where you steal the enemys starmaps.

It could be an "Enemy comm codes captured" or "Enemy status reports captured". It could be an event that could Last for a few turns or Last forever, depending on how well your counter-inteligence is working.

The codes could be made useless if the ememy or yourself uses an "Infiltrate enemy intel Ops" mission. I don't know if that exists already. There could also be an intel op that would steal the enemys comm codes and have the same effect.

If you understand what I just said, please give some opinions or ask questions.

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Rules? What Rules?

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maverick:
As an example from real-life, when the U.S. captured the U-505 in WWII, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*ahem* ... You've been watching too many Hollywood films mate. Despite what a recent movie would have you believe, that boat was actually captured by the British=-)

As for thr intel thing... good idea.


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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

"ahem"...This isn't a history post, bud, but it was the US that captured the U-505. It was done by the USS Guadalcanal (I think thats the name), an escort carrier. I watch the history channal alot.

And that movie wasn't about the U-505, it was about a fictional sub.

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Rules? What Rules?

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 04 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 04 May 2001).]

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

I like the idea of a continuing intel. I think it would be neat if, for example, you succeded in intercepting communications you would continue to get them until you were discovered by a counter intel project. You could have moles in place forever.

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

The British captured the first enigma machine, but I am not sure what the hull number of the sub was. The US Task force commander who captured U-505 almost got in trouble, because we didn't need another and there was a chance that if the Germans found out about the second capture, they would change out their crypto. Of course it wasn't the task force commander's fault. The fact that the original enigma was captured wasn't circulated for obvious reasons, and the poor guy was just acting on his own initiative. I'll bet he was pretty surprised when he found out the allies already had one. Doh!!

I would say the easiest remedy would be simply gain a boost in intelligence points for each capture. This wouldn't be terribly realistic, since the IP's could be spent for any project. Maybe have a chance for a special bonus that completes a current non-counter intel project and while ensuring automatically succceeds.

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Like I said, this isn't a history lesson post. The u-505 was the first example that can to mind, and I said nothing about it being the first. And I usually read and watch things that deal more with the pacific theatre, not the atlantic.
Now can we get back to the orginal idea.
Nitram Draw has just improved the post with the mole thing. That basicly what I'm talking about. Most startegy games don't have an ongoing spy op, just the one turn type things. Continous moles would make intel more realistic.

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Rules? What Rules?

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 04 May 2001).]

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

sorry just trying to share an interesting anecdote. It would be cool, although I'm not sure if that kind of change would be a good bang for the buck as far as changing goes.

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nerfman:
sorry just trying to share an interesting anecdote. It would be cool, although I'm not sure if that kind of change would be a good bang for the buck as far as changing goes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry to go further down the tangent here, but i believe they did find out at some point, and they started adding more wheels to the things. if i remember, we captured a dozen or so of the things throuoght the war.

but yes, this is a keen idea. perhaps when you capture a ship, it would give you some random number (like 1-3) of low level intel projects immediatly. of course, you would need to make the psychic trait cost double then.

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Ahem..... :-) I heard that the first enigma machine fell into allied hands through the czech resistance. Can't remember where though.
I think the german navy added an extra wheel to their enigmas towards the end of the war, just for paranoias sake but bletchly park cracked the code in a matter of weeks / months because it was still basically an enigma machine.

For an interesting read on crypto and intel try Cryptonomicon by Neil Stephenson (sp?) Big black book with white cover text.

Some info (starcharts, ship designs, ship concentrations) would be more accessible from captured ship databases.
Then you have to add the 'change crypto' counter-intel project which requires all ships to return to a resupply depot to receive the new codes ....

[This message has been edited by jimbob55 (edited 05 May 2001).]

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Jimbob, I think your right about the Czechs and the enigma. I watched a show sunday, i think that talked about the enigmas. I think they said it was hand delevered to British intel, but can't remember where.

JB also has a good idea about the change codes thing. Didn't even think about that one.

Also, just to make it more real, you or the AI shouldn't be informed all the time about captured ships files. Like the enemy's comm system are jammed and they can't tell anyone that they were captured.

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Rules? What Rules?

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Jimbo, that is a good idea. You can bet our guys are considering what needs upgraded now that the Chinese got 'em one EP-3. Well, at least we got our people back.

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Ok, can I just ask that this post go back to the original purpose. I don't want to decrease anyones desire for history, but I just want to put this back on track. I really want too get peoples opinions on my idea. Lets just turn this into a poll post. Anyone have an idea to add, please do so.

Hey, I got promoted! It took just one month.
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Rules? What Rules?

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 05 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 05 May 2001).]

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

To a limited degree... An attack fleet deep in enemy territory is largely on its own; the fact that communications and reinforcements would both take massive amounts of time due to distance implies a greater degree of autonomy, and I'm not convinced that one fleet would necessarily be aware of the disposition of other fleets that aren't in the same general area. On the other hand, they will likely have information about that particular region.

In addition, any society that can travel between star systems probably has better computing technology, which would allow for such things as the use of OTPs specific to a link in a hierarchy, or alternately strong public-key cryptography or other methods by which compromising one link might not affect others... that is, the "universal code book" vulnerability wouldn't necessarily exist.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
&lt;snip&gt;
In addition, any society that can travel between star systems probably has better computing technology, which would allow for such things as the use of OTPs specific to a link in a hierarchy, or alternately strong public-key cryptography or other methods by which compromising one link might not affect others... that is, the "universal code book" vulnerability wouldn't necessarily exist.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They've probably also mastered the use of "quantum cryptography" (see http://www.qubit.org/intros/crypt.html). Quantum crypto may make it more difficult to decrypt enemy communications, even with a captured ship on hand.

A side note on the captured E-3: SE4 needs dedicated EW ships. Yeah, we can model spy planes & spy satellites with small ships/satellites loaded with sensors, but we should be able to create a ship that gives sensor bonuses to the fleet (both offensive and defensive). Unfortunately, the AI would need to figure out how to use them http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif .

[This message has been edited by DirectorTsaarx (edited 07 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DirectorTsaarx (edited 07 May 2001).]

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

For someone who's signarure includes:

"Rules? What Rules?"

Someone seems to be making a lot of rules http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

There, I changed it nerfman. Happy?

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Opinions? I don't need no stinking opinions!

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Its a suggestion box, not a we'll do what you say box<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

Never happy, but somewhat amused.

Re: Planet/ship capture bonus.
 

I think this is one of those issues where gameplay takes precedence over realism - This is a complex idea which touches on quite a few of SEIV's more abstract simulations - for example, wouldn't it be more realistic if you simply lost contact with damaged / destroyed/ captured ships rather than know for sure what happened to them (and who did it)? Changing the implementation to better model that though would be a LOT of work for MM and wouldn't necessarily make for a better game.

My vote would be for a small intel boost and/ or "pre- paid" intel project as a reward for capturing enemy planets and ships.

As for the Enigma thing- I'm no historian, I just know that that film got it wrong, and I was keen to correct its ignorance. I can understand your frustration with your thread drifting off topic, Maverick. However I don't think it's such a bad thing, especially if it stays within the wider topic of military history (ie examples in military strategy.) Occasionally talking about something different gives us a better idea of what ppl are really like.

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so Brain, but how are we gonna teach a goat to dance with flippers on? "