Very disappointing news about AI combat spell use
 

The following is taken from a Usenet post about a question I posted to Gandalf:

>
> ">> "Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net> wrote:
>
>> C) it does have a spell selection routine that does not include
>> spells which are stupid to cast in combat. I suspect that alot of
>> player opinions are going to fly on that but nothing is locked in
>> stone. But its very playable.
>
> Thanks for the detailed response. I'm very pleased to read the AI is
> much better. I'm confused about the above point, however. Are you
> saying there are some combat spells in the game that are stupid to
> cast in combat and therefore the AI does not use them? Why have those
> spells in the game if they are stupid to cast?

It would probably be more correct to say that spells were left out that the
AI isnt smart enough to know WHEN to cast them. The ai routine couldnt
possibly come up with all of the if this and not this and only when kindof
decision making for every spell. So spells which often did more damage than
good or were for specific situations were left out of the list. Whats left
is kindof a "choose from this list of usually a good idea to cast spells"

Gandalf Parker

The more I think about the decision to exclude certain spells from ever being cast in combat because the AI cannot always decide the best time to cast them, the more mad and sad I become. The only spell I can think of in Dom2 that the AI would sometimes cast poorly was Breath of Winter, and even that could be overcome most of the time by arranging your troops properly. Now, I feel they are making combat less exciting and more predictable by limiting casting to a select group of spells. Even if the AI were to stupidly cast some spells sometimes, it would have an equal effect on both the player and the AI for the most part. I don't see how this decision could possibly result in a better AI or improve combat in any way. One of the charms of combat in Dom2 was that the AI could cast *any* spell, even if not always perfect in its casting, it created a certain degree of unpredictability and excitement in combat. By limiting the AI's casting, you are probably also limiting the spells your own units will cast in combat, except for the 5 you are able to script in the beginning rounds. If the AI never casts Breath of Winter, for example, you could gain an advantage over the AI by scripting BoW for your own units in the opening rounds, knowing that the AI will never cast it for its own units. Does anyone agree with me that this is a poor design decision or am I off base?

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

It's certainly not the perfect solution, but I have to say I prefer this over the way it was in dom2. If the AI is clueless about the proper use for a spell, it will result in a better AI and less frustrations for players if it simply ignores them.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I tend to agree with quantum_mechani. It's not exactly an ideal solution, but I think it's the lesser of two evils.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

So do I, though I think it won't be an issue if this will be modable.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

NO, you can't mod the AI spell list.

And is it really that absolutly devastating saddening horrible that of several dozends, if not over 100 battlefield spells the spell AI is going to ignore maybe 5 or 10?

I don't think so. I would say trust the devs and the testers in this regard - if they found that the game acutally works better this way ...

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I hope you're right about there being only a handful of spells that the AI will not use. My concern was that there are a large amount of spells that are never used.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I don't know if there are any spells that won't be cast. If there are it is only a few I'd say (don't trust me on this, I'm not informed on the matter).

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

It might be that I didnt ever see the full list. Its possible that "left off" the list is really "move to the bottom of the list". Possibly it chose one without ever going thru them all. But I would be surprised if there is AI thinking for every spell in the game. To avoid some of the complaints Ive seen, just one example would involve:
If someone is near enough for an area effect spell..
A) am I naturally fireproof
B) am I wearing equipment to make me fireproof
C) are my bodygaurds fireproof
D) are other leaders near me
E) are they fireproof
F) are their bodyguards fireproof
G) are the enemy units which I can injure with this spell worth more than the friendly units I can injure with this spell

Everyone was yelling for smarter AI and make it not cast stupid spells in combat. I think thats a ton better in Dom3.
But if someone wants to compare the Dom2 debug log with the Dom3 debug log then they can always make suggestions later

Gandalf Parker

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

BoW is a huge pain in Dom2, and it's NOT possible to keep it from being by playing with your troop placement in many cases. I can certainly think of better ways to deal with it than what this sounds like, but even so, it sounds like a huge improvement to me.

In the very few cases where you might conceivably *want* this spell to be cast, you can script it (and make the next command 'attack') anyway. It makes no sense to cast it after the enemy turns tail and starts running for the hills, which is when the AI normally pulls it out - if you're going to cast it, you want to cast it on a character that's then going to step forward into the melee - so that's well within the script.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Breath of winter is also nerfed. It was unreasonably powerful for a lvl 1 spell. It now causes fatigue instead of AN damage.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Oh nice, I was always wondering that why was that spell so powerful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

As long as spellcasters will use damage spells instead of weak summons when they already have a horde of troops screening them I'll be happy.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell use
 

I rather agree with the design choice to have some spells not cast by the AI and only left to the players. With the gazillion spells in the game I don't expect any AI to handle spellcasting correctly for all (or even some http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I'm about to present an uncounterable argument for limiting AI spell use.

http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/4476/stormmm9.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/9576/storm2dw9.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/5228/storm3hg6.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/3939/storm4tq8.th.jpg
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/8013/storm5ms6.th.jpg
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/8630/storm6oe4.th.jpg
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/7683/storm7ep3.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8430/storm8cu6.th.jpg

Words cannot describe how I'm feeling right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]


That... Ugh. Well:
and I just observed!

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Its is in fact ucounterable.
Sadly though, I just can't stop laughing.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell use
 

Heh! I was wondering if the AI would ever creatively decide Vortex of Returning by itself.

Just marking Vortex of Returning as "AI never casts" would be a crude but simple solution. But I think there is a counter-argument, which is that, in an ideal world, there would be enough time to program the AI so that it sensed when its own troops were in grave danger of being wiped out, and the home province was safer, and only in those circumstances to cast that particular spell.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Maybe make it so if you will route the next round, then the Vortex is used?

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Barkskin and Phoenix Pyre are also dangerous spells in certain situations.

Barkskin -- I once sent a Druid on a 1-man suicide mission after he cast Barkskin on my Abysians. That was a very, very ugly spell to choose...

Phoenix Pyre is dangerous if there are friendly non-fire-immunes.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I've more or less managed to get over the shock, which has now been replaced by an extremely strong urge to strip Daulis of his magic items and teleport him into a hostile province.

Works for me, but that's not a counter-argument as such, as I wasn't advocating exclusion, but limitation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Heh, you ought to be able to feel my pain.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

VERY glad to hear that.

That one spell has been my bane for far too long. I could count the number of times it's done me any good on one hand. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen friendly fire casualties from it though.

Okin: Very good demonstration. Happy to say that hasn't happened to me, yet. However, other than BoW, yes I've had the experience with nature mages insistently casting protection all around when playing Abysia, and when fighting Abysia. It gets very frustrating.

Here's my thinking on it, for whatever it's worth. Yes, it's *better* to have an AI that can read the situation intelligently and know when it makes sense to cast a spell like that, or not. But it's MUCH easier and quicker simply to disable the spell, and without making a number up, I'd say most of the time the two solutions have the same practical effect - the spell is not cast. So disable the problematic spells first, then later if the programmer has time to add them back in with appropriate logic, great! If not, just removing them is still great though. Don't let the best become the enemy of the good.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I once saw a giant C'tis army blow itself apart after a mage in it cast PP and then got killed several times by my smiths' blade winds. It was hilarious.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Then you just weren't using it correctly. I think that breath of winter has caused unreasonable friendly fire casualties to me twice, whereas it has damaged my opponents in almost every single game I've ever played.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

I'm talking about the *AI* casting it.

Yes, when I script it, it often does very well. That's not the point. You can still script it.

Re: Very disappointing news about AI combat spell
 

Hmmm, I didn't have much problem with BoW (even if I agree it was overpowered). Either I had thugs or SCs and scripted them to use it, else petty water mages prone to have it cast by AI just had to be separated from the other units.
It occured to me that some units still get too close (routing or chasing enemies who had broken my lines) but it never cause much losses.
If Dom3 BoW is chill-damage only there won't be any problem anymore...