Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Check this out, publishers of Gal-Civ II post about dom III going gold (at http://www.galciv2.com/, and http://forums.galciv2.com/?AID=128349 ).

There's something symbolic in that, as IMO those are the best publishers for quality strat. games (stardock and shrapnel).

If you are members of this forum, you may want to throw in a few good words on dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

..and you can see posts like this in that forum:

"Master of Magic has better graphics, never cost 55$, and while the interface is somewhat behind the curve (it's at least 10-15 years old) it's still a lot more accessible and powerful than what I encountered when I tried to play the Dominions 2 demo a few months ago."

what can I say? no comment.


*edit*. I was just reading more posts. It seems that most of the Galciv2 people are complaining about the Doms 2. AI.
Example:

"I would find it hard to believe that there is a large crossover between GC2 fans and Dom2/3 fans.

Dom is basically MP only since the AI has always sucked. More because of all the useless junk they keep on throwing in with little mind to balance or entertainment.

Then there's the price tag... completely unreasonable for a MP only niche game in my opinion, but hey, it's their baby.

That said I like the developers at Illwinter, and I like the Dom community, I just don't think any of them really care about SP gaming (as far as Dom is concerned). "

Well this is funny, because the Galciv2. AI wasnt that good at all, and it can be exploited easily. I dont know whats going on now, because I havent touched Galciv2 for a couple of months now, some patches maybe upgraded the AI.

The other thing is that I still play Dominions 2 a lot, but I stopped to play Galciv2. I think this is the best proof that which is the better game, AI or not.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

MoM has better graphics? O_o What and odd claim, not that it really does matter.

Some of their points are valid, I think. Namely the AI concern, but since I am such a poor player the sure and safe "Lots of AI's gang on me" was good enough to keep me excited.

Apparently Dom 2 did sell for $55 and didn't Dom 3 break the pre-order records? Their economic asses of the situation is off if you ask me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

The GalCiv crowd will always be able to complain about other games AIs. Brad was famous in AI discussion circles before GalCiv was redone to a windows version and was often mentioned in any AI paper. I snatched it up when I heard that Brad had decided that Windows XP had advanced enough to support real AI.

But to be truthful, Ive hardly played it at all. I was very disappointed. I should probably download his new version though and check it out again.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

First claim is plain outrageous.

As to AI, no surprise there as GC-II has amazingly powerful AI. Dominions forte isn't it's AI or fgx, rather than it's depth, replaybility and (for me) charm.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I've run across some game-breaking retardedness in the GC2 campaign AI, such as enemy ships being built without weapons. I suppose it might be worth another shot with the update, but I don't really see the point when I can do other stuff that I know is fun.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Well I dont agree Wraith. Firstly, Galciv2 is a SP only game, so they focus on AIs. Secondly their so called AI is not working that good. I remember that I was playing Galciv 2. after like 2 patches, and the AI sucked still. It wasnt hard to beat 5 AIs on the hardest settings. The Galciv2 AIs are not bad, I wouldnt dare to say that, but surely not hard to beat for a human player. Now I tell you something more. I had harder times to win against the Doms 2. AIs then against the Galciv2 AIs. There were some Dom2 SP games for me, when I had a 4+ front war against the AIs and I lost. I never lost a single SP game in Galciv2. Why? Mainly because of diplomacy. Its fairly easy to turn an AI to your side and make an alliance. From that point you cant loose a game. Maybe this has been changed after more patches, but I seriously doubt that I would loose a Galciv2 game even now.

Well the Doms2 AI wasnt perfect, but it was good enough for the new players to practice before they play online.
As we know the Doms 3. AI will be better. I am also pretty sure that IW will upgrade the Doms 3. AI if it will be needed.

All in all, Im pretty disappointed that the Galciv2 players are bashing Doms 2. like this. Dominions 2. is much more complex then Galciv2. Thus its much harder to write an AI for Doms2, since the comp player must take care of many more different things. Oddly they forgot to mention this.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Don't worry too much about that. Any discussion is good discussion, and we're very appreciative that Brad started a thread about Dom 3 on his forums. He's a class-act. We hope those of you who haven't played GalCiv 2 will give it a go.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

You have probably played GC-II considerably longer then I have, for my personal experience with its AI was that it's very tough. Maybe the fact that dominions doesn't support diplomacy has something to do with the GC-II fans complaints

I agree that it's much harder to write an AI to dom since it's more complex (and less motivation to do so, since it's more MP oriented).

Ahhm, I have to say that I share your sentiment of disappointment, it reminds of when I've tried to tell ppl in the AOW forums how great dom is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Even somewhat negative discussion is a lot better than the absolutely zero response I have gotten posting about dom3 on Apolyton...

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Odd, civ fans dont know about Doms? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I'm interested in that the GalCiv ppl seem to be mostly complaining about price / value / worth. I have to say that I don't really fall into the 'niche' gamer box... I don't think. I play big name titles, (even if i hat EA) and I fork out a fair bit of money for games. I bought Dom2 about a year ago, though only after playing the demo for quite some time. I found the biggest obstacle was ordering online, not the price. Seriously, I don't really think that Dominions isn't polished, and don't really see why it should be cheaper than any other game. Computer game price is really wacked IMHO. Dom3 should be cheaper because Illwinter is smaller? Big name games should be expensive even though most of them REALLY REALLY suck? Galciv may be an interesting game, I've never played it. Supposedly doesn't the combat system really stink? I've been told that all the ships on one side fire at the same target, and that it just goes back and forth, and you can screw with AI targeting by playing with firepower/size/hp ratios... though that might not be true. still, from what they were saying, I think a lot of them might be interested if the price were only a little lower, so its not too bad. I won't mention what i think should happen to the guy who advocated a $20 price tag though...

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

And had it on the front page no less. It's also worth noting what he wrote further in the thread:
edit: That's the best sort of endorsement I could imagine. I wonder what Sid Meier thinks of Dominions...

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Wow thats really cool. Ive always thought alot of brad but thats moved up another notch in my opinion.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

That's not retarded. The idea is to upgrade the design to one with weapons as soon as they become available . In the meantime, the ship will prevent you from invading a planet with a transport, unless you send warships in.I've even seen the AI build most of their fleet weaponless, only to upgrade when my ships were about to attack (thus rendering my carefully chosen armour useless against the lasers I never knew they had...).

Thing is, Dominions 2 doesn't really need a decent AI to make the game playable (and that's from someone who prefers single player over multiplayer). Remove the AI opponents from Dominions and you still have an intricate, detailed and fun game which plays differently everytime. Remove the AI from Gal Civ, and you no longer have a game. It's all about focus - Dominions' strength lies in it's depth and complexity. Gal Civ focuses more on the competition.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Interesting that they brought up MoM. When i'm proselatizing for DomII I always try to explain it as "Masters of Magic meets VGAP," but so far not one single person has known what i was talking about. I loved MoM, and always hoped they'd do an MP sequel. They didn't, but Illwinter stepped up to the plate and hit a homer.

As for he AI, <shrug>, who cares? Nearly all 'puter strategy games are SP. If they have MP at all it's an afterthought pasted onto a game system that's ill suited for it. Often games last hundreds of turns, or one strategy is clearly superior. Dom is a rare strategy game that's made for MP from the ground up. If i want to play an SP games and "solve" AIs there are hundreds to choose from. Dom is the best strategic MP game i've found by far, and I'd buy Dom3 even if it didn't have an AI at all.

That said, I'm confidently hoping the new AI will be better :>. I'm also pretty confident that after X games i will be able to crush it reliably.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Just posted my views at GC2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Brad said:

A class act indeed. Not many devs would glow like this about another dev's product, especially when Stardock has long been rumored to be interested in eventually following up on Master of Magic.

But he's right about the fact that these are exactly the games that the community needs to support. I bought both GalCiv 2 and Dom2 because of the fact that they were obviously works built with heart by smaller developers and released against odds in a market that's becoming more and more consolidated and accordingly less willing to challenge thinking gamers. Both games have a number of wrinkles that are easy to point out; but you'd expect that given the fact that they don't have a paid full-time QA team, to say nothing of the inability to pump tons of money into development of graphics, AI, etc. Frankly, I'm thrilled that they're as fantastic as they are and when I ask for improvements, it's with a deep respect for everything accomplished thus far.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Yeah it was a very nice thing from Brad to post news like this about Doms 3.
Oh btw it seems that Brad is visiting these forums. ->

"..But I think it's a great game and the people who make it and the community around it is wonderful IMO..". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Very, very well put, Archon. I've noticed in many games with strong AI that players confuse good AI for poor AI when it's actually the AI doing something intelligent without the player realizing it. I remember this happening some in Black & White. I've heard numerous tales of designers crafting AI systems that seem to be misbehaving, but then find out later that the AI is actually getting something done in a way the developer never thought of. I'm sure even the largely disappointing Radiant AI of Oblivion achieves this sometimes.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I've seen it in Dom2 few times too. Something surprising happens and your army faces totally unexpected opposition. Your scripts make no sense anymore, but AI switches the plan and score the victory using tactics you have not even thought about. Unforgettable feeling! Unfortunately it doesn't happen often http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I'm sure that woman standing in the middle of the road and staring into a brick wall is up to some serious, tricky, intelligble trouble.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Hells, yeah. While you sit there laughing at her, her partner in crime just picked your pocket.


...maybe.

=$=

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

What I know about the Oblivion AI development was that 'supposedly' they had to nerf it, otherwise all the A.I. controlled creatures were too unpredictable. i.e. if you left the goblin cave for late game, the goblins would have all move out, or attacked a town and been slaughtered by the rediculously overpowered guards that beat anything the touch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Too bad, since it could have been a great game, though it has a few other problems (compass too powerful, fedex quests, fast travel reduced imersion etc) It's still an okay game though, just not dominions quality. And the graphics are sweet.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Well, I was reading the discussion over at the GalCiv2 forums, and it made me concerned that Dom III wouldn't be a good fit for me seeing as how I'm most likely to be playing it SP due to time constraints. I was going to pose this question here to get a feeling for what people thought about DOM III as a purely SP game.

However having read this thread here, I think I've answered my own question.

I'm currently playing GalCiv2 and I enjoy the game quite a lot. Have I found ways to thwart the AI there in an exploitive way? I think I have once or twice. But that hasn’t prevented me from enjoying the game; it’s human nature to figure these things out. It hasn’t broken the game for me.

So if the AI in DOM III isn’t perfect, I’m not worried. I think I’ll get my money’s worth, and from the comments here from people who have far more DOM experience than I do, I believe I’ll have a lot of fun along the way. I’ve only played the DOMII demo, and I love the flavor and balance so far. I have not found it overly complicated in any way, but I’m ravenous to get into some of its depths which is absent in so many other games.

Brad and the developers over at Stardock go out of their way to keep their game fresh and to keep their customers happy. However on that forum I find an unfortunately high percentage of people who seem incredibly unhappy no matter what support they get and seem unappreciative and demanding. I’m not in anyway labeling everyone that way, but there are times when I can’t help but wonder how moral isn’t impacted some days. So I take the DOM criticisms there with a grain of salt, and give kudos to the Stardock team.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Im almost entirely a solo player. Most games I wear out in a month. Dominions is one of the few games that has lived for years on my machines.

I really have to get back into GalCiv

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Welcome!

I think you'll find yourself loving this game. For what it's worth, I never really figured out how to exploit the single-player AI. Oftentimes it would roll over me with little difficulty, but perhaps my skills are just that negligible. ;-)

But the depth of the game is incredible and I love the way the themes have little touches that you discover over the course of playing the game. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

It may be worth mentioning that there're kind of 2 modes of MP in Dom2 (and, I expect, in Dom3). Regular games with 24/48 hour hosting that are played on massive scale and usually take months and blitz games that are usually done in one sitting (3-6 hours) and tend to concentrate in the early-to-mid game. If you get hooked on Dom3 you may [*have*] to find time for at least blitzes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Well, as beta tester I can say that Dom3 is much more SP oriented then Dom2 was. Changes for SP improvement range from GUI improvements that allow you to start SP games easy and fast. In Dom2 you needed to first make game, then leave to main menu so you can chose another option in order to play it. In Dom3 you just select 'create new game' and you can chose nations, make pretender, chose map (you can generate random maps of 3 different sizes from there as well), set game settings and start playing immediately. Basically you can setup and start playing game only with one option.

Another notable SP change is AI improvements where AI is less predictable then it used to be. Also, it will build castles, and it will build labs too so if you leave AI enough it will develop and start overwhelming you with forces of mostly national troops. Additional difficulty level is another change with levels mighty and insane now. For the reference, mighty level is now harder then insane was in Dom2. Insane is just that - insane.

Game also has additional tools that allow you to design and save random maps, battlefields, pretenders (you can have more then 1 for each nation now), and map editor that is much improved over Dom2 one. All this helps SP crowd to setup and enjoy this game.

Of course, all this doesn't mean that MP aspect of the game is neglected. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Even if there hasn't been a huge rewrite of the AI codewise between Dom2 and 3, it has been improved significantly (the AI build castles, doesn't take scales as destructive, builds better troops also), and the Dom3 setting is much more AI-friendly : more gold, more resources mean more conventional armies, that play a bigger role up to the mid-game. PD is also usually bigger and allows for a defensive boost in the early stages also.
In my few Dom3 test games I've had difficulties to just survive the 20 first turns vs "difficult" AIs when playing on a crowded map (Silent seas with 5-7 nations).
Very good so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Nice to hear this lads. Well I was playing TCP/IP MP games in Doms 2 mainly. However I used to play SP games as well, when my friends had no time to play an MP game. So it is nice to hear about all these AI improvements.
Maybe the Galciv 2 players will like Doms 3. with this upgraded AI.
Great job IW! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I am a newbie to Dominions, arrived here via Brads/Frogboy/Draginals's (he likes his alter egos) link. So any publicity or discussion on any other forum is good for Dominions, it will attract new blood (no not new bloodslaves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif) to the game.

I am a huge Galactic Civilizations 2 fan, very few games retain my interest after 40+ games and six months playing, but I still love playing GC2. GC2 has been a great success, plans exist for 2 expansions and there will be a GC3. The community on the GC forums is argumentative, very demanding and easy to criicize, must be a sci-fi thing. The community on here seem altogether nicer. I think Stardock r too soft/easy going when arguments/debate gets out of hand.

Brad was right about there being a potiential crossover between GC2 and Dom3. After downloading the Dom2 demo and playing it for a week, I could not pre-order Dom3 fast enougth. It's strange that alot of negative comment was placed on the thread, because Dominions looks a great game to me and a recent poll of Stardock's asking which new game they should develop, came out overwhealmingly in favour of a fantasy strategy game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

AI wise, I would not even compare the two together. GC2 has the best AI in the pc gaming world, while Dominions went from the opposite side, concentrating on being a multiplayer game to adding AI on. As both games develop perhaps they will travel 2 different paths meeting in the same place, ie...both good AI and multiplayer. It would be better to compare Dominions AI to Heros Of Might & Magic, Age Of wonders and Disciples. In such a comparsion Dominions AI is not that bad and can provide a decent enough challenge to hold a players interest, especially at impossible level.

Dominions strengths r its huge depth, excellent game design, playability and re-playability and the helpful Dominions community.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Thanks for all the feedback! I'm totally sold, and I've actually got a friend interested so MP may be a necessity. I must make time... I'll need to convince my wife to visit her home, and take a vacation from work.

I'm really excited to get my hands on this! I'm looking forward to sharing my experience and learning a lot from everyone who has tested.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I don't want to be rude, but the Galciv AI is pretty much average. I've installed the game again to try it out with the latest patch. I steamrolled the AI on the hardest level...and I wasn't playing for lot of weeks.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I won't be so definitive : in GC the AI is surprinsingly "intelligent" strategically, enters into diplomacy with more or less good results (for it), but falls into "traps" that are easy to design by players.
In Dom1-3 the AI is totally brainless, can't be reasoned with, but produces things and send them to attack you: sometimes it even win !

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I definitely have to question what AIs you consider "above-average" if GalCiv is average. Everything I've encountered with regards to it has given me quite the opposite impression... but perhaps you've played some awesome games I've never heard of. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

To be honest I haven't seen a good game AI ever...the fact is, that its absolutely not hard to beat the Galciv2 AI on the hardest settings. So I cannot say that the AI is good.
Not to mention that the diplo AI can be exploited totally by the human player.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Interesting...u must be a extremly good player to do this with GC2 1.3, what lvl were the AI's on? Sucidal is the highest (but its cheating, 200% universal bonus to everything), I think tough is where it plays exactly as the player does, without cheating (individual AI setting ultimate), I can not name another pc game which plays better without cheating, can u?

In Dominions is the AI cheating on impossible level? If so by how much and in what way?

I personally do not care how a AI puts up a challenge to me in any SP game, wether it cheats or not. So long as the game is entertaining and interesting.

Please note I am not attacking Dominions in any way, I like the game or I would not have pre-ordered Dominions 3. I am a DominionsFAN too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I was playing on suicidal [incredible] level. That is 200% bonus for the AI players. Well I was playing a lot with the game many many weeks ago, so I consider myself a good player still.

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

In that case, all I after say is, may we never meet on the field of battle, especially a Dominions one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

Actually I plan to play MP games with you guys, and not just with my real life friends. Well playing with real life friends is the best, but I really like this community, so I want to play with many lads here...but only TCP/IP games, because I hate PBEM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: Dom-III discussion at GalCiv
 

I´ll take the glove as soon I get the game. I don´t mind loosing to good players (I did). That way you learn new stuff. Know that I've been patched to build castles and path-improvement items. so beware.