Another idea that struck me while writing an AAR.
 

Here is another idea that seems so appropriate to me for Dominions. Like the "dominion flipping" idea, this one struck me while I was writing an AAR, and it is mostly thematic.

A pretender should have an effect on the unrest of a province. I'm not saying it should be a large effect, but it only makes sense that when the pretender is walking among his people, their morale would increase. Even if it's a god who is evil and has turmoil scales, he is still among his fanatical worshippers, and he has the power to break their wills better than a mortal army could.

So, how would this be balanced? The good thing is that there is nothing to balance it against. It applies to all players. However, should it be a set factor, or should the god's dominion strength be tied to it? How about the amount of unrest that decreases is equal to the god's base dominion strength (chosen at game start) plus the current level of dominion in the province?

=$= Big J Money =$=

PS -- Why did I have to wait until Dom3 came out before writing my first AAR?!

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

10% more taxes from the provinces the pretender is in will have the same effect.

And pretenders which like turmoil shouldn't spread order. So order would get out on top again.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Nah, nah, nah. I didn't say "spread order", I said decrease some unrest in his current province per turn. That's not the same thing by any margin. In fact, not only is it completely contrary in spirit to what I was proposing, I even made a statement regarding that specific concern.

"Even if it's a god who is evil and has turmoil scales, he is still among his fanatical worshippers, and he has the power to break their [rebellion] better than a mortal army could."

If I were proposing that a god of turmoil ought to spread order, I'd be a real idiot, now wouldn't I? Please don't change my words, or people will not even know how to discuss my idea!

Also, 10% more taxes in the same province would not, in spirit, be what I was proposing. I didn't say a god walks into a province and all of a sudden the tax collecters work harder (although that might happen too, hehe). I said when a god walks into a proviince, the trouble makers both quake in fear and fall down in worship, and begin to dissipate. It's not the monetary effect that matters, but the little thematic detail. I think it's the kind of detail that would fit the personality of the game. Is that any clearer? I do not always communicate my ideas very well.

=$=

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I think I understood what your ideas where - but that's not how it works out in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

What will a player do if his pretenders quells a certain amount of unrest in a province each turn? He'll crank up the taxes without needing to patrol (and lose some pop that way). Therefore it would be easier to simply let the province generate 10% more gold ... .

Doesn't very high turmoil scale result in 0..5 points of "base unrest" any more? Therefore, if you pretender quells unrest, he is in fact spreading order .. or am I maybe mixing something up from older versions of Dominions ???

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

In Dom:PPP, Order decreased and Turmoil increased unrest. The end effect was that the tax rate had to be fiddled with. Decreasing unrest, especially if it only affected one province, and ESPECIALLY thanks to the new tax manager, would result in more gold.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I think there is a simple comprimise. What if the pretender got a basic patrol bonus? Like BigJMoney said, if your god said "drop your weapons and go home" you would be a lot more likely to do so than if some minion told you that.

On the other hand, it would disturb game balance a tad. A nation with great scales and a throw-away pretender (though it seems like that might not exist so much anymore, seeing as there are no themes or castles to spend money on anymore) could continually patrol their home province and crank the taxes up real high, whereas a nation with an SC or site-searching or researching pretender wouldn't be able to do the same. Admittedly, it could be balanced, but that would take some time.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I think balance-wise one of my points was that since everyone has the ability to do this, it's not unbalanced. It's simply another strategic choice to make. Do you leave your pretender at home to keep the people happy and research magic, or do you take him out into combat to spread dominion far, and quell the rebellions there? You do bring up a good point, however. He should not be killing the people, he should be preventing the rebellion, and turning the current rebels peaceful. So, what we're really looking at is a decrease in unrest without a decrease in population.

Also, I don't know exactly how fast 200% taxes increases unrest, but just so everyone knows, I can agree that it would be silly to have a pretender who could quell unrest that effectively.

Because this doesn't have the same meaning. This does not decrease rebellion. If you are working your people hard, let's just say at 110% taxes, then the pretender's presence ought to calm/force the people into submission. This situation is much more preferable than an invisible number the player will never ever see, and probably not even know about! Let's compare the two in detail, assuming they both end in the same result:

My idea: A pretender with a Dominion strength of X has the capability to sit in a province and prevent an amount of unrest equal to that generated by having taxes set to 110%.
Application: You set the taxes to 110%, and your people begin to rebel. You send the ol' pretender in there and it stops. Maybe even use an army to patrol to get rid of the few that remain. Tell the pretender to leave, and what happens? The people go nuts again, but you still make the money. Everything makes sense.

Your idea: A pretender with a dominion strength of X raises the money gained by the province he is in by 10%.
Application: You send a pretender to a province. You get more money. Tell him to leave, and you get less money. Why even add this to the game?? It's redundant!

That is a huge difference! If you can't see it, then you don't understand my point, which is the aspect of the pretender and the effect of his presence on the people. It's like telling some guy that asking his children for $20 is the same as asking a friend. He'd get the exact same money, so what's the big deal? Why not just ask your kids for money? I appreciate the fact that you are approaching this from a pure gameplay perspective, but I also reject it. One of the reasons Dominions is such an enjoyable game is because of its attention to theme and details; why things happen the way they do. There are probably dozens more ways gameplay analysis could streamline dominions to make it less micro work, but then it would lose its personality.

I don't appreciate faulty logic. Quelling unrest is not equivalent to spreading order. Spreading order involves: a direct increase in taxed income, (maybe) an increase in order, and a decrease in the chance of random events. You need to meet all the criteria to qualify as "spreading order". Saying that quelling unrest is the same as spreading order is like saying an acorn is equal to a pine cone because it grows on trees.

At this point it really seems you are trying to kill the idea for no other reason than to be correct about what constitutes better gameplay. So what? It's not like this idea adds micro to the game. All you have to do is play with the tax rate to see how high you can get it with the pretender in town. Either that, or maybe you blood hunt in your home province with no worries, because the fantaical people will tolerate more when they are around their mighty god.

=$=

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I like this idea. I don't see it as unbalancing or messing up scales since it can only ever affect a single province, not the god's entire dominion. A subtle shift of focus giving pretender gods slightly more influence by their mere presence in a province. On the other hand, what a dilemma. Do I stay safely in my fortress leveraging my god's research points, or move him to the province next door where a bad event has caused incredibly high unrest. Sure, I could send my death squads in and slaughter the unruly populace, but that hurts my income in the long run... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

If they both provide the same result, then you should build your interface around the one that removes micromanagement. Thus, making the pretender boost income automatically would be the one you choose.

Except that what actually happens when people are playing the game is that you will just have to change the tax levels around in every single province as the pretender moves around. There's nothing strategic about this, it's just pointless micromanagement since you will never get unrest unless you forget to change the taxes.

It has exactly the same effect as your suggestion, yet it has absolutely no micromanagement. Thus, it's the far superior choice.

Then perhaps you should go back and play Dominions I, since you seem to think that micromanaging your taxes is such a wonderful piece of gameplay. Micromanagement is nnot good gameplay. Micromanagement is what happens when you are required to manually adjust things that should be automated because the optimal decision is obvious.

Why don't you go and re-read what you just wrote here, because you've just directly contradicted yourself. First you claim that your suggestion wouldn't add micromanagement. This is laughable, since it clearly requires you to adjust the tax rate to take advantage of the pretender's movement. Then you tell us that you have to play with the tax rate. Note that playing with the tax rate is micromanagement. Thus, you've directly contradicted yourself.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Autotax. That new feature in Dominions 3. You know it right?

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

A pretender spreads dominion, why in hell should he spread un-unrest as if he were a bunch of patrollers ?
Note that as he spread dominion he push the province he's in towards his scales. That seems much more fitting than auto-killing of brigands ...

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Can we watch the tone of this discussion? It's verging on antagonistic and I'd like to think we can have a back-and-forth discussion of new ideas without things getting too heated.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Yep, JaydedOne, you're right, he should have said more ploitely that it looked like a bad idea to me ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I could have misunderstood, but I do not believe that he was suggesting that the population was killed as is the case with patrolling. Simply that unrest decreased out of awe OR fear depending on how you want to look at it. The dominion of the pretender (to me) reflects his/her influence and renown among the populace there. This is good, but the divine presence walking the lands in which you live would seem logically to have a more obvious and immediate impact on the willingness of nay-sayers to speak out.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Yeah, I know about the autotax feature, which is one of the reasons I got caught in a semi-contradiction above. On one hand, I was trying to place my idea in the light of Dominions 2 when I said, "all you have to do is play with the tax rate ..." and on the other hand, I was trying to place my idea in context with Dominions 3 by saying there would effectively be no micromanagement involved. I should have proof-read my post a little better and cleaned it up. With the autotax feature, there would be no micromanagement. Really, this means I have nothing to reply to Graeme Dice about.

@PDF
That wasn't even a coherent statement. Nobody has suggested anything contrary to the way things work right now. In essence, all I said is that it seems thematic that when a peoples' god is physically present, they are less likely to misbehave. Think about it. Right now, there are absolutely no inherent bonuses for having your pretender god present among the people. That's probably why the idea came to me in the first place; to fill a "realism" need.

=$=

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

BigJMoney,
Which of my statements weren't "even coherent" ? They may have been rash, but they look coherent to me...
As for your statemenyt that
it's just untrue : presence of the pretender raises faith (dominion) and this dominion makes the province tilt stowards the pretender's scales, so people work harder if it is order or productivity, are more healthy if it's Growth, get cold if it's cold and die more if it's Death http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif !

This suits me perfectly. I like the idea that the Pretender is a godlike being not even bothering himself with unrest and not a kind of awe-inspiring sherif making the brigands surrender arms and going back to their fields. That's what good admin (low taxes) or patrollers are for.
Maybe I'm more clear now ?

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I think PDF is making a good point here. From thematical point of view, it may be more interesting to have have priests powers increased when the god-pretender is in the same province - for example, priest level for preaching purposes could be raised by 1. Intuitively, it seems that ability to demonstrate the god would simplify the task of preaching (unless the god is hiding, I suppose). From tactical point of view it may be interesting to raise priest levels for the purpose of combat casting if the god is participating - it can make a big difference vs undead.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

If somebody is going to both promote micromanagement as though it is good gameplay, and directly contradict themselves in the very same post, then they deserve whatever flames they get. The internet is not the personal playground of people who are too delicate to deal with criticism.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

> they deserve whatever flames they get

No one deserves flames. Polite answers will often clear up misunderstandings, faulty logics and bad english.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Flames also endanger the threads. Not to mention the flamers login. Keep in mind whose forums these are and why they have them here. Chasing away newbies is not the goal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Flames also burn my delicate otherworldly hide. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Yeah, we are famous [the Dominions fanbase on these forums], that we have a very nice and friendly forum. Hopefully this won't change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

The pretender raises dominion, regardless of what province he's in. If he is 3 provinces away from province X, he might actually raise dominion in province X, and he might not raise it in the province he's currently in. It's a system that uses a little bit of randomness to simulate realism. Also note that once that dominion is raised, it cannot be decreased again until an enemy pretender lowers it. This is because it does not represent the presence of the pretender, but his effect on the levels of faith of the people. I, like you, think this system is a very good one, and does a wonderful job of representing the spread of faith in the pretender god. However, what you yet fail to grasp is that I see a lack of a direct bonus applied to a province only while the worshipped pretender is present. You say, "it is untrue", but it is true, and I will give a final example. This is the last time I will argue this same thing with you:

Example:
Pretender enters a province.
1)The dominion in that province goes up to reflect the fact that faith there is spreading even more. When the pretender leaves, this faith will remain; it is a permanent effect he has had on the people. If they were already at MAX dominion, then he can have no further effect, but word of his greatness spreads to the next province, and they become more like the people here.
2) Because the pretender is currently present among the people, he has a temporary effect on them. Criminals and brigands are less likely to commit crimes and sins, because they feel that retribution may come to their door that very day. Their own god is among them.
Pretender leaves the province
1) The people lose no respect for their god. He has made a lasting impression on them. Unles a stronger god comes to replace him, they will always adore their god.
2) Now that he is gone, however, the local trouble makers feel relieved. They do not feel the same intense fear and guilt they felt while they could behold him in person, and they resume their activities.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have any leg to stand on if you continue to say that Item#1 covers the need for Item#2. Maybe you think Item#2 is just stupid. You almost say that here:

That's fine with me, because I don't think everyone has to agree with me. However, I've felt that I have to defend my idea from people trying to change it into something else; and I will do that.

@Graeme
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, Graeme. I'm going to assume you did not update yourself and read my last post, which explains exactly why I contradicted myself, and corrects the contradiction. I shouldn't have to say that bringing it up again coud be considered intentionally deceitful. Please read my post before this one and update yourself on my stance. You will see that my idea does not call for any change in micro-management. Dominions 3 has an auto-tax system to account for increased or decreased unrest. If there is something I am not aware of, I would appreciate a polite explanation.

@everyone
This thread has gotten to the point where people are worried about flaming. Flaming occurs when people become too emotionally involved in a discussion and cannot control themselves. I apologize if anything I've said by lack of concern for emotionalism has caused someone else to take offense. I tend to be critical and blunt when arguing a position, because it is faster. I am a bit surprised I've actually had to defend myself in the first place. I hope no flaming takes place; there certainly won't be any from me. A final apology for my inability to present my ideas so that others can understand them. I tend to keep OPs as short as possible, because I find that people are impatient and don't read them if they are too long. It can go without saying that there is no ill-will on my part toward anyone; ever.

@ballbarian
You seem to comprehend what I've said fine. I won't give you credit for agreeing with me, because that would be biased, but I do appreciate the fact that you've once pointed out where you too saw that someone was not understanding me.

=$=

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I'm certainly not going to go back and change my original post in this thread. That you changed your stance once it was pointed out to you that you were contradicting yourself is immaterial to the fact that you were contradicting yourself in the first place.

Your original post does call for a massive increase in micromanagement since you suggest that the player would be happy to directly modify tax rates. I don't see why it's unfair to point this out. I'm certainly not going to go back and edit my post to change it, as that would be incredibly dishonest.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

I would say that his suggestion calls for the oppertunity for more micromanagememnt, but isn't that like saying that the dom3 tax system will require tons of micromanagement? It COULD, but unless you don't want to use it, it won't. And as to him changing his oppinions, it has been said: 'When the circumstances change, I change my view. What do you do?' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I have to disagree with you, I think it's better to be inconsistant than to be wrong.

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Graeme, I was not asking you to edit your post. I was asking you to "update your [personal position on the matter]". Besides, the post in question was one you posted after I made my clarification; not your original post. Yes, there was a contradiction in my OP, but thanks to your pointing it out, it's been corrected. Should you continue to use old information in my OP, it's your own neck.

Anyway, I'm content with what I've said in this thread. My final words to anyone who reads this thread for the first time will be a request to, as always, read it in its entirety if one wishes to be informed.

Graeme, Arrelen, and everyone else, have a good week, and I hope everyone had a good 9/11.

=$=

Re: Another idea that struck me while writing an A
 

Graeme, maybe you need to read the Board Rules. A couple of excerpts you need to familiarize yourself with:

and

With the upcoming influx of new people and activity on these forums, I am not going to tolerate flaming, trolling, baiting, etc. So everyone needs to remember to treat one another with respect or be prepared to be booted.