v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

It seems that the Combat To Hit Offense/Defense Plus abilities in VehicleSize.txt file are cumulative. When you have just 1 fighter in a group it gains 2 times the bonuses from these abilities. When you have X fighters ina same group that group seems to get (X+1) times the bonuses from those abilities. For example when you have 10 heavy fighters in a same group this group gets +550% to hit and +660% to defense. This seems to be the reason why ships cant hit large fighter Groups with their main weapons (point defense still hits pretty well..). Ok i understand the reason why capital ships main weapons cant hit fighter Groups very well, but there is also the problem when fighter Groups of different size try to shoot each other. Smaller group has serious problems to hit the larger fighter group and vice versa. Do you think this is intentional and if it is should it be changed? I tested this in the simulator but imo it is the same thing in real combats...

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

Ah. So this would explain why my +50% Legendary ships, in +50% Legendary fleets, with warrior culture (+5%), impressive aggressiveness (+10%) and combat sensors III (+65%) still get 1% versus fighter stacks at range 1...

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[This message has been edited by Taqwus (edited 08 May 2001).]

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

But it doesn't explain why point-defense still works. Don't PDC operate under the same rules as other weapons, just with a bonus to hit? I don't think the bonus is anywhere near 550%...

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
But it doesn't explain why point-defense still works. Don't PDC operate under the same rules as other weapons, just with a bonus to hit? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the point-defense has some sort of intrinsic compensation for this... not sure of it though... hmm maybe it is so that the point-defense cannons shoot individual fighters and all the other weapon types shoot the fighter group as a hole...?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't think the bonus is anywhere near 550%...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am quite sure of this. You can test this in simulator, just vary the fighter group sizes...


[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 08 May 2001).]

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
But it doesn't explain why point-defense still works. Don't PDC operate under the same rules as other weapons, just with a bonus to hit? I don't think the bonus is anywhere near 550%...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The PD Weapons have 70% bonus to hit and that bonus is specified in the components.txt file. Now that is the catch - all bonuses-to-hit specified in that file are calculated AFTER all other bonuses in the game. So, when standard weapons get 1% chance to hit fighters, PD weapons get at least 71% chance. Basically they never go below 71% (or 70%, not sure).

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

Maybe this is similiar/related to another problem posted elsewhere. It was pointed out the once you destroyed the shields on the first fighter in a group all remaining damage was applied directly to the next fighter and so on. That may not be an exact explanaton of the problem but it was something like that.
550% to hit wow! Better keep a lot of PD around.

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:
The PD Weapons have 70% bonus to hit and that bonus is specified in the components.txt file. Now that is the catch - all bonuses-to-hit specified in that file are calculated AFTER all other bonuses in the game. So, when standard weapons get 1% chance to hit fighters, PD weapons get at least 71% chance. Basically they never go below 71% (or 70%, not sure).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just tested it and i can confirm this. I gave +70 Weapon modifier to Telekinetic projectors and now in simulator their to hit chance never goes below 71%, in any situation... (regardless of range and other modifiers).

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 09 May 2001).]

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

That explains a lot. Now it's clear that the observed changes in the hit probability for fighters were not intentional made by MM. Did you mail your findings to MM so they can correct it in the next patch?

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

You guys are legends!

No all we have to do is wait for a patch!

And until then build lots of fighters in really big Groups and lots of ships with only point defence.

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Or, like I do, choose religious tech and use the Talisman. It ALWAYS hits with Direct Fire weapons. Then you're not really concerned with attack bonus, only defense....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. If you have the religious talisman and lots of fighters you will beat now everyone else due to this bug.
This makes IMO quite a bad balance of the whole game. I seriously consider going back to Version 1.30 or just to wait for the next patch. Every evaluation of AI modifications will be useless once the bug has been corrected.

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
You are right. If you have the religious talisman and lots of fighters you will beat now everyone else due to this bug...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew there was a reason I always choose religious tech! ...but I was speaking from a counter-point / defense position for the 1% probability targeting fighters problem. Wouldn't a Talisman and a coupla' PPB III's do a number on those fighter Groups??? (and of course throw in a few PDC's for good measure...) Of course this strategy is useless for other tech's. I guess we'll have to wait for the next round of patches. I guess if the bonuses wouldn't stack, it should solve the prob.

As a side question(s), does anyone know if this applies to Sat Groups as well (and / or possibly ground units)??? ...and is this only a prob with ver 1.35????

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

rdouglass I understood your statement. I meant if you use your ships as you described to kill the enemy fighters and use your own fighters in large Groups to kill the enemy ships/planets then you will defeat anybody who has not the talisman himself.

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

New strategy!!!! I guess I'll have to research fighters earlier than I normally would - at least 'till they fix it.

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

I have reported these bugs/features to se4@malfador.com.

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

Just remember... you can always RAM fighters http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif, it always hits and is always lethal...

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

Or, like I do, choose religious tech and use the Talisman. It ALWAYS hits with Direct Fire weapons. Then you're not really concerned with attack bonus, only defense....

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trachmyr:
Just remember... you can always RAM fighters http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif, it always hits and is always lethal...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct, but the AI never uses ramming (at least in my experience).

Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

My experiments with ramming in the simulator seem to show that you *can* get your ships to ram in strategic mod, but only if:

- Your ship has no weapons or tractor beams(you can have PDCs)
- You don't want to ram fighters or satellites.

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Re: v1.35 bug/feature (concerns fighters mostly)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:I don't think the bonus is anywhere near 550%...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Orginally posted by HreDaak:I am quite sure of this. You can test this in simulator, just vary the fighter group sizes...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for the confusion - I was referring to the PDC, and the fact that the _PDC_ don't have a 550% bonus to hit; fortunately, you and Daynarr have explained how PDC can have a 70% chance to hit without resorting to a 550% "to hit" bonus (yeah, it's really "modifier to offense plus" or something, but hopefully you know what I mean here http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif )