What is really new?
 

Just stumbled over the anouncement that Dom 3 is approaching release. Then read the features list and looked at the screenshots. Big disappointment.

What is really new in Dom 3 compared to Dom 2? The graphics seem to be largely unchanged (at least they are as horrible as in Dom 2). Ok, I also do not care too much for graphics. So what are the revolutonary changes in game mechanics? Frankly, I cannot find them. Everything is just Dom 2 with some minor improvements like you would expect from a bonus patch or at best from an extension. Is there anything really important which is truly new?

Re: What is really new?
 

This is a sequel. It is a sequel I enjoy playing much, much more. There are many new nations. There are many new ideas. Balance has been changed considerably. It's harder to rely only on summons, and almost all of the buff spells have been changed in one way or another (e.g. Breath of Winter doesn't kill, Fire Shield is weaker and higher in the research level, all protection-increasing spells result in increased vulnerability against one of the elements, or poison), there are now nation-spesific spells that have to be researched so that Jotun player can't cast Illwinter on turn 7, and it gives many other nations access to very cool national spells.

I can't give you one big chance. I can tell you of a game that is much better than its prequel.

Re: What is really new?
 

It's true, the basic mechanics and engine are largely unchanged.

That doesn't mean there isn't a ton of things for dominions players to look forward to. Having played dom3, and going back for an occasional dom2 game, you really feel the difference. It's a lot of little things added together that make it a new game, not one big thing you can point to (personally, I would have been disappointed if they had opted to spend much time revamping the graphics engine instead).

If I was to point to the most 'stand out' new changes, I think it would have to be the new random system, the gold/resource/fort changes, and concept of eras. Each of these changes the way the game is played quite dramatically. The first opens up new ways for each nation to (and each type of mage) to be more unique. The second makes for larger battles, and gives lighter troops a real niche. And the last one gives the whole game a great sense of history, each age has a story and a unique feel, and add to dominions already epic feeling.

These aren't the only things, there are other new features and details too numerous to mentions (the age system, reworked routing to make more sense, gods can awaken, random maps, darkvision, magic site modding, rebalance of summons, armor spells give vulnerabilities, you can now reduce province defense on the turn you buy it, astral horrors much more unique and deadly, when you create a game it now takes your there automatically rather than back to the main screen, satyrs causing unrest, hordes of new units, spells, nations and items, blood hunting difficulty linked to magic site frequency, death blessing reworked, more tool-tips/transparency in the interface, etc.).

If you are looking for something that looks and plays radically different from dom2, you won't find it. Myself, I'm just glad they kept what made dom2 so great, and made it better.

Re: What is really new?
 

Well, if you play SP, just that the AI builds castles will get them attack you with different armies for each nation instead of everyone attacking you with the same crap (slingers, militia, etc).
It was odd that ashen empire attacks you with tons of light units and that an army of vanheim had only a very few national units (skin shifters, hirdman).
I hope that now they bless their units or design a god to have fire 9 instead of 8, or instead of lvl 3 lvl 4.

Re: What is really new?
 

The Awakening mechaning seems to have changed the game dynamics quite a bit too.

Re: What is really new?
 

Improved AI is a huge deal for me. The graphics were improved, by the way. If you were looking for something like Warcraft 2 -> Warcraft 3, well, you're not dealing with Blizzard here.

So OP: I'm curious, besides graphics, what were you looking for in improvements?

Re: What is really new?
 

More units, more spells, more nations, more themes, more items, better AI, and improved modding ability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Damn good thing, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

I second that

Re: What is really new?
 

Why the Blizzard dislike? They've made quality games if you ask me.

Re: What is really new?
 

I agree with others. I dont think it was meant to be somekind of an etirely NEW game. Its Dominions 2 with enough improvements to be Dominions 3.

I think that mainly we are entering a new era (oops, a pun since Dom3 introduces eras) in the games development. When Dom1 and Dom2 came out there were many player suggested improvements. And they got put in on a regular basis. Then each of them started developing a wishlist full of items which couldnt be put in without large rewrites to the way the game did things. When Johan got frustrated at getting more "cant do" than "can do" suggestions, he seems to start a new version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So even though there might not be a visible difference to you, I see it as a step that was needed so we could go forward. And I have no problem paying full-game price for that work.

On the other hand, Im thrilled with additions for solo play. Better AIs, more AI settings, larger maps, more random events, randomly generated maps.

Re: What is really new?
 

Better solo game might just make it worth my while. Anyone tried it yet?

Re: What is really new?
 

Betas have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

They've made many quality games. They've also entered the Dikumud style MMO market, which is guaranteed to leave a large proportion of their customers who quit playing WoW hating them.

Re: What is really new?
 

Of course Blizzard makes great games. I still have Diablo 2 installed for when my brain is too fried to play anything else. However, they wouldn't touch something like Dominions with a 10-foot Ethereal Pike, and if they did, it would... well... not be Dominions. What do you mean by DikuMUD? I thought that's what WoW was; is something new coming up?

@EMH: Have you checked out the AAR's yet?

Re: What is really new?
 

True true.

Also, 10-foot Ethereal Pike, haha, shouldn't that be 10-foot Robopike? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

That pretty much sums it up. Also, they cancelled Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif[/img]

Re: What is really new?
 

No, WoW is what I'm referring to.

Re: What is really new?
 

Between warcraft 2 and 3 are at least 5 years.
And imho blizzard was never famous for their graphics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.
The graphics of all their games were only average.

Re: What is really new?
 

Let's face it - more units, more spells, more whatever, is NOT what makes me await Dom3. I mean, obviously Dom2 already had many more than I ever used.

Dom2 was a great game that I played for almost 2 years - one year almost to the exclusion of all other games. That was excellent value for what I (OK, not I, my girlfriend) paid for it, and Dom3 will freshen it a bit, renew my interest, and maybe bring in some new players more likely to be close to my own (bad) level. IMHO, that's well worth the price that I (OK, not I, my girlfriend again - it's not my fault if they release close to my birthday!) paid for the new game.

Plus, it means supporting an independent publisher and developer, and that's also a good thing in my book (but then, I can perfectly understand if some people want value for their money - which I think they will with Dom3, but if you're only a solo player, are happy with Dom2, and tight on the money, then maybe you should stick to Dom2).

Re: What is really new?
 

Well, I find I liked the graphics of Warcraft 2 (and, even more, Starcraft) much better than Warcraft 3. 3D in strategy, be it RT like Blizzard does or TB a la HoMM, doesn't make it for me (but then, when it's all I can get, I still buy the games from time to time - a little eye candy and light solo game doesn't hurt when I'm bored).

Re: What is really new?
 

Blizzard has made some good games, but they're a little slow on being an effective business. The original Diablo was a smashing world-wide success yet look at how long they took to develop the sequel. Just stupid management to ignore a gold-mine for so long.
Also even tho I was a big fan of Warcraft_2 I never purchased Warcraft_3 because the company was purely focused on graphics and the maps were only 96X96 at maximum.(way too small)

Re: What is really new?
 

Well, Warcraft 3 is fundamentaly pretty different from WC2. Much faster paced. Might have been an intentional move you know.

Re: What is really new?
 

Before you decide on whether or not the game is any good... play the free demo first. The demo should be arriving sometime during October.

DominionsFan gave a great quick answer.
More units, more spells, more nations, more themes, more items, better AI, and improved modding ability.
PLUS Random_Map_Generator, maps can now have 1500 provinces, and more game options

Play a few games on the free demo and then decide if it's worth the money.

Re: What is really new?
 

Anyone who has not got Dom2 but really likes fantasy 4xstrategy games (like me) then Dom3 is a no brainer. Get in at the beginning and have maxium fun.

I loved Diablo, especially 2, still play it, wicked game.

Never played Warcraft, just one of those games that passed me by.

Re: What is really new?
 

The two first Warcraft games were really boringly...sÿmmetric. I'd like to love the 3rd game of the series but it's too fast for my tastes. I like the concepts there though.

Re: What is really new?
 

In your OP, you mention that some of these things might have been added to DomII in a patch, but that's a mistake. One of the reasons they are creating a new version is precisely because some of these things cannot be patched into Dominions 2. They've actually rewritten a lot of stuff and developed new things. For example, I bet if they could have patched in the AI's ability to use build castles, they would have.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: What is really new?
 

@EBH:
Im thinking that my solo-player view and linux server focus are what landed me in the beta-group. Dom2 disapoointed me abit in solo-play (just a little) but I understood that it was primarily a multiplayer game. Solo play capability felt like it was a cheap tutorial that you were meant to move out of.

But Dom3 has definetly made large strides to be both MP and SP. Im very happy. By the way, insane Gandalf got test games cranked up to 3000x3000 pixel and 1500 province maps. And 79 players (well the test group wasnt that large, it was padded with AIs). Obviously the game isnt going to do that for most players. They have to select an era and everyone play one of the offered races within that era. But with map and mod commands you can force every nation slot to play MUHAHAHAahahahhaha *evil insane laugh*

Re: What is really new?
 

I respect Blizzard. They've made a huge company from a very small one. WoW is the most popular MMORPG. Millions are playing it. Also they are upgrading their games very well. I stopped playing with WoW, but just because I wouldn't have enough time for it anymore. Real life and MMORPGs...well I prefer real life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Thanks for all the answers. Do not get me wromg, I think DOM2 was a great game, hence DOM3, which I (and most of the respondents here)regard as mainly being "more of the same" will be a great game, too.

OTOH, while I like to get more of what I loved in DOM2, is this really the way to make a new game nearly 3 years after the last installment was published? I still find that more suitable to a service patch or an extension. But that is just my opinion. I am definitely going to give the demo a try.

Re: What is really new?
 

Well, I have gotten more gameplay and enjoyment out of the Dom2 demo than I did out of HOMM5.

So I'll be ordering 3 as soon as there is a smidge of sunlight in the bank account to fit it in.

Really, if you spread the the money you spent for 2 across all the hours you enjoyed it, don't you think you kinda owe an update payment ;-)

if you think of it as buying a few of pitchers of beer for a couple of guys that have managed to completely ruin your life for months at a time, then maybe it won't seem so bad.

Re: What is really new?
 

That's a very healthy attitude. Just give this thread a bump and your opinion once you've tried the demo, been addicted and bought the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Dom II was a great step beyond DomPPP, but my take is that Dom 3 is the perfection of the changes that Dom II initiated.

I loaded up Dom II today. I noticed immediately that some of the commands that I have grown used to in Dom 3 weren't there: things like being able to resize the commanders bar, or hide the commands to the right-hand side, etc. I noticed the lack of the information-rich interface that I have grown used to: in Dom 3 I can see gem amounts, magical items, province descriptions, etc. in the main view. I recalled some of the non-particle-ized spell effects (even things like poison) which looked pretty silly in Dom II. Dom II was a great step forward, but a lot of the changes weren't complete - the game creation process for example was in some ways a step back from DomPPP. In Dom 3 the changes are pretty much complete, as well as a whole lot of stuff added (such as the aging system, national spells, the different eras)

In other words, I think it's a better, more complete game than Dom II, even though it is similar in content and style. Much more than a service patch, since most aspects of the game have been re-examined and thoughtfully changed. See below for a short list off the top of my head for new things that I'm particularly grateful are included:

• pretender creation independant of game creation (how bitterly I wished I had this in Dom II!)
• random opponents in game creation
• several different AI tactics, as well as AI strengths
• different eras (each with different emphases)
• total gems available listed in main screen
• commanders' icons are resizeable, and show gems + magical items equipped, as well as troops being commanded
• national summons!
• new spells/items/summons designed to deal with demons (hate those demons!)
• damage done in combat shown
• eradication of most all the old and nasty spell graphics (Slime, Poison)
• new battlefields, depending on terrain
• terrain survival actually makes something of a difference (at least for swamp survival - hopefully we can convince the devs to add more!)
• new independant troops (toad, horse, lion, bear, wolf, deer tribes)
• new fortress types
• new option of awakening, making it more viable to create a great bless strategy.
• bless effects shown when creating a pretender
• ability to get out of windows (such a spell lists) without scrolling to the bottom
• shift-click to recruit multiple units at once
• in SP, clicking 'end turn' automatically takes you to the next turn
• less friendly fire (IMHO)

Re: What is really new?
 

I'm not sure what concept of "Game N+1" (sequel) you have. I find that these kind of changes (various improvements, some new stuff, some changes in mechanics while retaining the core gameplay) fit my idea of a sequel. I would imagine if Illwinter made some really new game they would call it somehow differently (not "Dominions").

In any case, what difference would it make whether it is called sequel, service patch or expansion?

Re: What is really new?
 

I agree with alexti. There will be many new additions in Dominions 3. The AI will be upgraded, to the SP fans can be happy also. Lot of new units, spells etc. The game will be also easier for new players. Less micromanagement, hella powerful modding commands [basically you can almost change everything what you want]...and I could continue. This is definitely not just an "expansion".

Re: What is really new?
 

Yeah - looking at "mass market", the Disciples games, Kohan series, Ages of Wizards, etc, (even Diablo & Diablo 2) are pretty much exactly that - more of the the things found in the earlier games, sometimes a little bit better, sometimes not.

Re: What is really new?
 

Sequels used to be continuations of the storyline. They didnt have to change anything. Like the old bard tale games. Sure they kept up with graphic card changes and such but not much else. A sequel was more of the same game.

Any of them that havent done that have tended to tick me off. I dont WANT to buy a sequel which is so changed that its a completely different game. If you are going to do that then give it a new name. Dont cash in on the old name.

Re: What is really new?
 

*smile* I think this thread shows there are a variety of expectations as to what a sequel should be. My thoughts on the matter are pretty simple -- you read the AARs, the Screenies thread, and a few other info sources and you see if they get you excited about the product. If they do, you buy. If not, don't.

Why get worked up over the semantic question of what a "sequel" is?

Re: What is really new?
 

Yeah - like with the "sequels" to Master of Orion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

I was burned out on Dom2. Played it so long that I simply couldn't anymore. Then when I started playing Dom3 I got re-addicted. No burnout from Dom2 at all. I guess that should mean that Dom3 is different (and better) enough then Dom2 to be classified as sequel. It's not just more of the same, many things changed in gameplay and the feel of the game.

Re: What is really new?
 

Well in that case, there is the possibility that you will 'burn out' after a period regarding Doms 3. also. I mean I've played a lot as well with the game, and I never burned out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Kinda same happened with me. I had a massive Dom 1 to Dom 2 spree and then at one point I just got burned out. I was stuck in doing same things with same nations and it didn't feel fun anymore. I also had some issues with my life back then, a lot of them and they ate up my attention.

To be honest I have never really gotten so much into Dominions again, propably because I am waiting for Dom 3 and I don't want to be burned out again. I love the series to death but I'm afraid I'd just get bored again.

Re: What is really new?
 

You didnt play as long as me. I was in Dom2 beta so I started earlier. It took me long time to get that burnout feeling. Actually I was playing it like a madman (or like an addict) most of that time and I almost didn't touch any other game.

Re: What is really new?
 

I think what burned me out on Dominions2 were the limited options when it came to the endgame as well as a few of the more frustrating exploits. The mods which began to correct the latter didn't come out until I'd already lost interest.

So Dom3 is definitely cause for excitement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Yeah, I guess. However imho the real power in Dominions is the MP. You and your boddies are getting together at a given day for a TCP/IP match. Its still hella addictive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Hm usually we play 1-3 TCP/IP games / week still. We've played every day like 1 year ago.

Re: What is really new?
 

I've got pretty much the same experience as Nerfix: I like the game, but at some point, I know the game so well I don't have any reason to play through all the options again. As you might've seen from my posts, I haven't tried most of the nations, spell or strategies in Dom3. Having a group of people nearby who know and play the game would be wonderful. I'll have to try borrowing the manual to some of my friends; that could work.

Re: What is really new?
 

Yeah Endo, playing with people who you know in real life is the best MP experience. However I hope that I can play TCP/IP games with you and with the other people from this forum. I will spare some time for it. I've talked to the Dominion fans here, they also like the idea to play with/against people from other countries. Hopefully we can set up some games on sundays at least for the European players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

That'd be nice. My only experience thus far is one blitz against Quantum. It lasted most of the night and ended with my army on his capital and his in mine. I had this most wonderful SC who conquered few provinces, attacked quantum and died, was recalled, attacked Quantum and died, etc.

Re: What is really new?
 

Hehe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Well guess what. My longest Doms 2. TCP/IP game was more then 10 hours long. 8 players on a large map. It was insane. The funny thing is that 3 players were alive by then from the 8, and we just couldnt kill eachother, so we've decided that the game was won by 3 people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
Well that was a crazy game, 8 player TCP/IPs are usually ~4 hours long for us.

Re: What is really new?
 

It sounds like it was ~4 hours long.... for the losers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

That's one good thing about TBS games. If it starts to drag on or lose its excitement just let yourself get dominated, leave early, and go join another game.

=$=