Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Fellow Imperators ...

I am pretty new to SE_IV and now in my second game I have to face the Rage Collective as my neighbor (and enemy). They already attacked several of my ships and are blocking two of my homeworlds at the moment.

I read something about the tactics when fighting against the Rage (one being not to declare war on them and starting to attack their planets by all means) but to be honest I feel a little bit lost at the moment.

If you have any hints on tatctics and strategies against the Rage Collective, please feel free to post them here.

Thank you very much in advance.

ZzZ

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Haven't actually played against the rage yet so I don't know, but ppl here could probably give you better ideas if you described your situation a little more precisely.

What tech levels do you have?
What's your research / intel / resource production?
Do you have any other allies / enemies?
How does the Rage compare to you in terms of fleet size / empire size?

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but if they called them sad meals, kids wouldn't buy them.
"

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Not sure how much this will help, but here's what I noticed in my Last game --

* They go for phased-polaron beams, so you might not worry too much about shields until you get phased variants.

* They built a fairly large number of mines, but never used 'em...

* If you attack one of their worlds, they may employ
- Missile satellites.
- Missile/PD WPs.
- PPB WPs.
- Fighters -- a mix between rocket pods and conventional. (OTOH, I don't remember carriers in their attack Groups).

* They don't seem to go for solar collectors or QR early (e.g. my game Lasted almost 300 turns, in 255 systems, and my race was the only one with 'em) so their fleets have limited range.

* Their larger ships tend to include minesweeping components. If you don't use mines, that space is wasted. OTOH, if you're up against smaller, older ships, mines work well -- I once destroyed a fleet of 15 Rage ships (~LC size) that way. They also use a fair bit of PD, so missiles don't work that well against 'em. PPBs do...

* Their counter-intel isn't always that good. If they're blockading you, CI-ing their ships is a good idea. So is comm mimic to get them into war with somebody else.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

O.k.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
Haven't actually played against the rage yet so I don't know, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... they're evil ... believe me!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
... but ppl here could probably give you better ideas if you described your situation a little more precisely.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll do my best. At first here's a general description of the game.

It is a 10 Player Game ... 6 being human players (plus some neutral races). We are in round 7 right now. I made first contact with the Rage in round 3.

My race is a custom made race with 2000 race points (all empires have 2000 RP). It's a Schemer race and I picked the Psychic tech tree as a special feature. I enhanced Attack by 10% and also Intelligence.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
What tech levels do you have?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

O.k., right now I have

Ship Construction: 2
Cargo: 1
Propulsion: 1
Satellites: 1
Base Construction: 1
Weapon Platforms: 1
Rock Planet Colonization: 1
Neural Computer Interface: 1

Projectile Weapons: 2
Missile Weapons: 1
Planetary Weapons: 1

Right now I'm researching fighters (but I only have about 16k research points per round available because of the blockade http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif ).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
What's your research / intel / resource production?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Normally I have about 26k research points, no intelligence points (not researched yet) and the following resources 18k minerals, 3k organics and 1.5k radiactives per turn. 50k each in stock.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
Do you have any other allies / enemies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is one ally ... I have a trade alliance with this race ... this turn they offered a military alliance which is quite good. On the other hand they don't want to get involved in the conflict with the Rage.

Only enemy: the Rage Collective.

Then there is a neutral player (none A.I. I would guess) ... 1st contact this turn.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
How does the Rage compare to you in terms of fleet size / empire size?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Less planets than me (they only colonize none breathable atmospheres) but better fleet (high attack bonus, lots of frigates (about 5 I would say)). But I am not sure wheter I have seen their whole empire yet.

So ... that's about it.

ZzZ

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Oh ... I forgot

TDM Mod 1.7X is used in the game ... don't know wheter this is relevant or not.

ZzZ

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
&lt;snip&gt;
* They built a fairly large number of mines, but never used 'em...
&lt;snip&gt;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ack! I wonder if I messed up the ship construction file in the Last revision. Did you notice if they built mine layers. They used to build lots of mines and PLACE them.

As far as a strategy against them, I think their biggest weakness is that they don't tend to ally with anyone and usually wind up in multiple wars. If you can build some alliances then you will eventually have more income than they will. Tactically, it is tough, because they usually employ fairly large fleets and their weapon tech advances pretty fast. (That is the reason some of the supporting techs don't come along as fast.)

Keep posting about how things are going. I can use the feedback to make them even nastier. (Besides, it's kind of like watching your kid grow up.) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

ZzZ your choice to research fighters seeems very reasonable to me. Especially if you have Version 1.35 of SE IV, where there seems to be a bug that makes fighters extremly hard to hit with conventional weapons!
My next choice would be small mines in the orbit of your colonies, if the rage have not too advanced minesweeping components in their ships.
If you have any attack ships left, try to make a counter attack on their colonies. Even if you loose your ships it will weak them quite a bit, if you are able to destroy some of their planets.
Besides that try to colonize systems away from the Rage. You might even find new allies (I am an optimist: of course you could also find new enemies!)
Good luck!

[This message has been edited by Q (edited 09 May 2001).]

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

I'm not sure if they built minelayers... but I didn't run into any minefields in Rage space. It's possible that they were at war with the Darloks and that the latter had been sweeping Rage fields, but it really wasn't unusual to find stockpiled mines on Rage worlds, w/o ever hitting a minefield in their space. Darlok and EA space OTOH was fairly well mined.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Keep posting about how things are going. I can use the feedback to make them even nastier. (Besides, it's kind of like watching your kid grow up.) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehehe ... I will keep you updated regularly ... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif ... we'll see how long I'm going to survive ...

BTW ... nice kid ... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Makes me want to play against the Rage...

If there is a new Version, where can i find it?

------------------
Emperor Klis't of the Taera Republic.
Proud member of the League of Empires.

E-Mail -
Ora Planet - Taera Republic - League of Empires

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Cool...Rage Creator is listening. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

I've been playing for about 65 turns or so, (low tech cost, so I have Atmosphere Modification Plants and QRs now). The Rage are on the opposite side of the Quadrant from me (fortunately). I've found them to be the toughest AI yet. A few things:

* Have not encountered Rage minefields; may have been cleared by the Phong, though...an example of excellent mine use is the Colonials shipset; haven't seen any mines on any worlds, either
* Planets mostly protected by External Missile Launchers (yes, I'm using a mod)...I don't know why it picked this particular weapon
* Haven't placed any sensor satellites in-system (also see Colonials for excellent use), so my cloaked ships roam freely... haven't found the heart of their empire yet, so I'm not 100% sure, though; only been through 5 or 6 of their systems.
* Currently working on missile-dancing them to death to work the PPB range disadvantage (once my Missile boats get to the frontlines; we'll see how that goes)

On the good news side, most impressive so far is:

* I like the 'none' atmosphere...seeing fully colonized moons is...unsettling. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
* they really swarm! I attacked one planet Last turn, then cloaked, and all of a sudden, there's three dozen capital ships in-system next turn!
* they are currently competing with me for first place; they breed and expand like rabbits, but I can't find their colonizers to shoot down!
* excellent fighter design...I've had to run away from carriers several times

Overall, I'm seriously impressed...just work that cloak detection and mining, and there ya go! Keep up the good work!

zen

::edit::
Ooops, forgot to mention that I'm playing v1.70 of the TDM ModPack with v1.30 SEIV; this may all no longer be applicable with any updates http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
::/edit::

[This message has been edited by zenbudo (edited 09 May 2001).]

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Yep, I'm out here. For better or worse, real life has picked up its pace lately, so I haven't been able to work on the Rage as much as I would like.

Version 2.0 that comes with the latest TDM modpack (for SEIV v 1.35) produces slightly fewer ships and more units to try to slow down the resource drain due to maintenance. It also does a better job of setting up planetary defenses early on.

I have some ideas for changes to the research path that might improve things a bit, but I have not had enough time to set aside to test those changes. I do read all the feedback I can find on the Rage, though, so that when I do have time I can address any weaknesses anyone sees.

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

*** News Flash ***

Just received my latest turn ... one of my colonies started rioting because of the latest losses in the battle against the Rage.

Because of the Blockade it will take my another 3 turns until I have fighters at hand.

*** to be continued ***

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

ZzZ: You should also be developing the Psychic weapons, since you took that trait. The Allegiance Subverters are great; take over the Rage ships and use them to wipe out their former comrades. Besides, you can analyze the captured ships for tech. Oh, and the TK Projector (IIRC) is a decent early-game weapon (haven't encountered late-game, so I can't say any more than that).

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

More colonies start rioting although it seems that I defeated these damn aliens for this time (only one enemy ship left in my systems, three frigates hunting it).

Is there any hint for that? What can I do to make the people become happier now?

@ DirectorTsaarx

Of course I am planning to research the Psychic Weapons soon ... but I think it is much better to focus on fighters first (as they are a good defence for my systems).

BTW, thank you all for your help and comments so far.

ZzZ

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

If you have fightrs that means you hav the construction tech lvel... which means you can research troops. A few dozn troop units will calm down a planet considerably. Ships help as well.

I have also heard of a cheat/ exploit where you move all the population off the planet using the "abandon colony" button (but leave the facilities in place) and then put them all back again. The planet's happiness rating is reset. Of course this isn't a particularly honest way of playing...

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but if they called them sad meals, kids wouldn't buy them."

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Alpha Kodiak --

I checked a saved game near the very end. None of the Rage ships I'd ever fought or CI'd had any minelaying components (but they *did* have the tech -- they had sweeper components). Most options were standard except 255-system galaxy, 5k unit limits.


ZzZ --

Note that even *unarmed* troops raise happiness. A weaponless small troop can be very, very quick to produce. The psychology tree also has urban pacification centers, which increase happiness in a system. You'll want to research them eventually...

Certain other things such as colonization, treaties and building stuff can make your race happy or unhappy depending on whether you're happiness type is peaceful, bloodthirsty or neutral.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
Alpha Kodiak --

I checked a saved game near the very end. None of the Rage ships I'd ever fought or CI'd had any minelaying components (but they *did* have the tech -- they had sweeper components). Most options were standard except 255-system galaxy, 5k unit limits.


ZzZ --

Note that even *unarmed* troops raise happiness. A weaponless small troop can be very, very quick to produce. The psychology tree also has urban pacification centers, which increase happiness in a system. You'll want to research them eventually...

Certain other things such as colonization, treaties and building stuff can make your race happy or unhappy depending on whether you're happiness type is peaceful, bloodthirsty or neutral.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info! I finally got some time to play again, so I started a game where the Rage is one of the races I am facing. I ran into them a few turns back and am now at war with them. I've resisted the temptation to look at what they have so far, because I want to see what it is like to play against them without watching what they are doing step-by-step. After we get into it for a while, I'll check to see what they are up to and see if I can figure out why they are no longer building mine layers.

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Alpha, I am currently in turn 33 of a game, your rage have 3 different ships that have mine sweeping comp currently. They have PPB as well (ship Last encountered had ppb5/minesweeper II(2 of them), pdc5, and solar collector 1).

They also currently have two light cruisers in service that are 'mine layers'. Mine layer I was designed on turn 15, mine layer II was designed on turn 27. They are currently sitting at 7 out of 15 in scoring. With my Y'Gathian FreeStates at 1, Q's CueCappa modded race (v2) at 2nd, my own human player at 3rd, then the Klingon, tdm-Xi'Chung, the Cepholopeia (Squids, AI in design stage), Toron, Borg, Colonial, the rest are Neutrals.


Using the latest tdm-modpack and the latest patch.

(HARD game too, the Rage on one side, the Borg on the other, both their ships outclass mine.......damn I'm havin' fun http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Do I have the wrong Version of them? (they should be the Version from the Last TDM-modpack)

I'm currently on turn 63, and the Rage are in 14th place. This isn't a unique event either, they have consistantly been between 7th to 14th place over the Last 6-7 games I've started (only make it to turn 100 before I start a new one most of the time).

I use 100 system setting, with large midlife and 2000 point setting, otherwise all the setup options are the default ones. I set the computer players to hard, with a low bonus. Manually selecting the following races empires (all 2K); Rage, Pyrochette, Colonials, Piudon (?), Sergetti, Klingons, Romulans, Xi'Chung (?), Narn, Earth Alliance, Norak, Darlocks, and a couple I'm working on, then select many computer players, with no nuetrals.

Up until shortly after the Last TDM Modpack they consistantly did very well, so I was wondering if I may have got something messed up in thier AI files. Any sugestions on what I can check to make sure I'm using the right ones?

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atraikius:
Do I have the wrong Version of them? (they should be the Version from the Last TDM-modpack)

I'm currently on turn 63, and the Rage are in 14th place. This isn't a unique event either, they have consistantly been between 7th to 14th place over the Last 6-7 games I've started (only make it to turn 100 before I start a new one most of the time).

I use 100 system setting, with large midlife and 2000 point setting, otherwise all the setup options are the default ones. I set the computer players to hard, with a low bonus. Manually selecting the following races empires (all 2K); Rage, Pyrochette, Colonials, Piudon (?), Sergetti, Klingons, Romulans, Xi'Chung (?), Narn, Earth Alliance, Norak, Darlocks, and a couple I'm working on, then select many computer players, with no nuetrals.

Up until shortly after the Last TDM Modpack they consistantly did very well, so I was wondering if I may have got something messed up in thier AI files. Any sugestions on what I can check to make sure I'm using the right ones? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only way I can think of is to check the Version number in the readme file. It should say 2.0. They have been fluctuating between 2 and 3 in the 16 player game I'm doing now, so they still seem to be pretty strong. I have noticed that if they start out near a black hole with damaging warp points they have problems because they build their characteristic large fleets and run them back and forth through the damaging warp points until they aren't large fleets anymore.

The other thing is that the other mod-pack AI's are also very strong, so where the races stack up is very dependent on how many good planets are nearby. The effect you are seeing with their rank in the new modpack may well be the result of improvements in the other AI's.

[This message has been edited by Alpha Kodiak (edited 11 May 2001).]

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Oh, and one other thing:

I was seriously impressed/terrified when I first ambushed a Rage convoy of transports with a light guard (one or two dreadnoughts). They ALL turned and attempted to attack/ram me...my ships were mauled because I had to keep the colony ships from getting too close while evading fire from the escorts. I'd never seen that tactic before...NICE work. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

zen

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

sheesh, tell me about the Rage. I tried wiping out one of their colony ships. I did but the horror...that frigate is still limping home!

Nice job!

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Cool, that must have been a fix in 1.35! I have had the ram tactic built into the Rage colonizers since the beginning, but I never saw it work when I was testing it in previous Versions.

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Ohwell, today i wanted to play against the Rage and it began giving me errors.

Looked on the Version number, and it is...lol, its 1.1!! yes, laugh everyone, i myself do. Where can i find the 2.0 (or whats the latest one?) Version??

------------------
Emperor Klis't of the Taera Republic.
Proud member of the League of Empires.

E-Mail -
Ora Planet - Taera Republic - League of Empires

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

My only fear is that every AI race modder is now going to start putting those ram tactics into every race. I like the distinctiveness of the Rage, it makes perfect sense for a Berserker-type AI species to throw every Last scrap of themselves at their foe with no regard for their own survival as long as it means being able to kill. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Speaking of AIs with distinctive personalities, I've been thinking of taking a shot at writing one myself that is a race of peaceful researchers whose preferred treaty with powerful allies is "protectorate." I can imagine people racing to encounter and get friendly with such a species. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif But considering how none of the other AIs ever seems to ask for protectorate or subjugation treaties, does anyone know if it's actually possible? Or is there a flaw in the AI hardwiring that prevents it?

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TaeraRepublic:
Ohwell, today i wanted to play against the Rage and it began giving me errors.

Looked on the Version number, and it is...lol, its 1.1!! yes, laugh everyone, i myself do. Where can i find the 2.0 (or whats the latest one?) Version??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just posted the Rage 2.0 in the mod forum. I had been relying on the TDM modpack for distribution, but if you don't use the TDM modpack, now you can download the Rage seperately.

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

Peaceful researchers you say?
Guess my Taerans are...

Im trying to make (slowly working on the scripts, not in the mood all the Last time) a quiet race, which will though burst in warships if angered.

Will never put RAM tactic on my civil ships, does not fit the IC of my empire

------------------
Emperor Klis't of the Taera Republic.
Proud member of the League of Empires.

E-Mail -
Ora Planet - Taera Republic - League of Empires

Re: Need help against Rage Collective !!!
 

For the first time ever I have had to research stellar manip and cut myself off from most of the galaxy. The Rage and the TDM Piundon are making a shambles of my empire's northern borders. I know the AI doesn't deal well with that so I cut it down to just one warp point entering the northern border instead of severing all contact. At least this way I can concentrate my defenses on one choke point.

Alpha Kodia:
The tatic of putting mine sweepers on the larger ships seems to be working pretty well for the Rage. Even when they don't make it through they can decimate a minefield that would stop most other races dead in their tracks. They lose their early waves, but they usally make it through if they follow up with more ships. Although part of this may be due to the face that I've let the two highest PD weapons have a limited mine sweep capability.