Blessings balance?
 

Personally, I agree that the Nature 9 berserk bless is suboptimal compared to, say, fire weapons and don't think I'd buy up to 9 with the vast majority of strategies I might use.

To me, the gold standard is Fire 9. All other things being equal (schools of magic being assumed to be equally desirable, lower level blesses being equally desirable), blessings should match up with Fire 9. Now it may well be that all other things -aren't- equal and I'm certainly open to discussion there.

Nature 9, though, seems sort of weak and even Kris seems to think that there might be room for improvement. One suggestion might be to have Nature 9 give a Sleep Vines attack or effect to existing attacks. Perhaps another might be a Gift of Health effect (which would work nicely with the Regeneration bonus).

I'm just tossing this out there to open the floor for discussion. It's likely premature, given that the game isn't even in release yet, but I figure brainstorming ideas isn't a bad thing and at the least it'll pass the time until release and perhaps give Kris an idea or two for a patch down the line.

Thoughts?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Also, out of curiosity, I'm intrigued by the afflictions bonus with Death magic. I assume the Afflictions +100% bonus means that you're essentially doubling your chance to cause an affliction with a strike? Could someone remind me (I can't remember off-hand) how afflictions are determined/calculated in the system? Has that changed at all for Dom3?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I wonder if the affliction formula is known at all...

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I thought Fire 9 was the most powerful bless. Are you sure you'd want every bless be that powerful? I wouldn't. Especially if the blesses would work with each other and not just add the same effect (like extra damage) many times. Double or triple blesses would become even more ridiculous than they already are.

Some things are known about the afflictions. I don't know the details, but I remember the exact numbers of how Curse and Regeneration affect it being mentioned few years back... At least regeneration has changed since then, though.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Well, again, my thoughts are "all other things being equal" -- I'm fully open to the possibility that all other things are not equal. However, Fire's got a lot going for it as a school of magic and a bless - great evocation spells, decent summons, excellent lower-level bless (who doesn't want +attack?), and an outstanding high-level bless with flaming weapons.

So, I'm not sure how other schools balance against that. I'm open to discussion, but I'd prefer that if Fire 9 is going to be the most powerful bless, then other schools should either have better 4 blesses than Fire (tough to pull at this point), better summons, better spells, or some other balancing factor to justify the weaker 9 bless. Otherwise, if all other factors are pretty much even, I'd like to see the 9 bless effects even out as well.

Does that make sense?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Fire got nurfed in Dom3 though. From 9 AP to 6 AP damage.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I recall someone stating that he chance to get an affliction has to do with the amount of damage an attack deals relative to the target's total HPs, and maybe even the target's remaining HPs. I don't remember who it was that was speaking about it, though.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Death magic 9 gives Death weapon to sacred troops. Death weapons have a CHANCE to do additional death damage to the target. Not the same thing as fire weapons. Both are magical though.

100% affilction chance is basically double chance to cause affliction to the target.

Devs can correct me if I misremembered.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

That's wonderful. Combine the increased affliction chance with the increased damage, and you have guerilla tactics that death nations can use. They can send smaller, expendable armies of undead and priests earlier in the game to attack enemies, dealing a lot of damage and afflictions before they die, ruining the larger defending armies.

Cheap sacreds like flagellants might also be good for something like this.

=$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

My thoughts exactly.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Since this thread is about blessings balance, I'd like to bring something up. Unless B9 has changed, it's really lousy now. You see, you've got a choice. Take D4 which will increase your chance of immediately dealing afflictions, or take B9 which will curse units and thus increase their chance of receiving afflictions in some later (maybe to never come) battle. Hmmm, which one will I be taking?

I think it's time to change B9. If increasing afflictions is seen as a proper level 4 bless, then it doesn't really belong to be blood's level 9 bless anymore. Or, has this one changed already? I'd like to find out before I start making personal suggestions to what B9 could be instead.

=$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I don't think it makes a good raider force. They aren't good at pillaging, or even much better at conquering provinces, but they can make enemy armies less powerful. That's rarely useful against national units, but against Jotunheim, or thugs or SCs, it can be worth it. And the 100%, or doubled afflictions, are just for Death 4. Every pick after 4 increases it by further 50 percent. At Death 9, we're talking of +350% afflictions.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Awesome...especially because Ermor is my favourite nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I'd agree that Fire 9 was the most generally useful of the blesses in Dominions II. Nature 9 was only useful for those troops that have enough hitpoints to survive enemy attacks, and both high enough protection, and low enough defense that the protection bonus and defense penalty works out in favour of protection. Pangaean white centaurs and Jotunheim sacred troops are probably better off with N9 than F9, but I'd usually pick F9 for most other nations.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Yes, N9 blessing for Jotun is a must have. F9 was the "best" blessing in Doms 2. However the new D9 blessing looks very powerul in Dominions 3. Well we will be more clever, after we've tried the game.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I dunno, I think it could be good against units that are hard to crack but small in number, like ulmish infantry and cavalry. A lot of hits don't go through the armor, and those that do usually only deal minimal damage that will be healed afterward. I can also see it being good against creatures with Regen because at +350% affliction giving bonuses, even regenerating creatures that live through a battle will probably pick up a few afflictions. In my personal experience playing Ulm, I've had armies that I overestimated because I didn't realize how badly wounded they had become over time.

One good use of flagellants, I think, would simply be to use them as light infantry. The usual role of wearing out the enemy would be supplemented by their ability to deliver hampering afflictions. They'd be a walking affliction bomb.

=$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Nobody's saying the Death bless is a bad one, particularly when you contemplate mixing it with, say, the Water 9 bless.

I'm really more concerned about the Nature bless and, of course, curious to see what's become of Blood.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Well, I'll weigh in on why I think the Nature bless, if not as powerful as fire, is still in good standing.

#1 You don't need level 9 for it to be useful.

#2 Level 9 is useful though, because an increase in Regen percentage coupled with the l9 ability is worth the points.

#3 I am crossing my fingers, hoping that having sacred/holy commanders with easy berserk potential will turn out to be very practical.

I'll counter all of that, however with this: if it's easy to get access to a spell that causes all friendly units on the battlefield to go berserk, then the bless is redundant. Actually, this is a good point by itself. When designing l9 blesses, it seems a good idea to stay away from things that can be battlefield cast (or even mass cast) anyway. Another example of why f9 is so great.

So, we'll see. If all three of my above points stand true with the game, I will be happy with the Nature bless. I'm a bit curious as to why everyone has been so silent about the Blood bless, though.

=$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I haven't considered the balance implications, but what about a blood bless giving a slight life drain effect to the blessed units attack. Nothing fancy, just a point or two of blood sucking damage to the defender and a point or two of hp benefit to the blessed attacker?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Afflictions in DomII worked like this:

Chance = (damage)/(remaining HP before damage)

The chance was doubled (or +100% if you prefer) for cursed units, and only happened 10% of the time if you were regenerating.

I think the B9 effect definitely needs to be changed. It causes a curse (only D4 as was mentioned) to the killer of the unit only if they fail a MR check. I think B9 should involve horror marks, either getting one from killing or perhaps injuring a blessed unit or when a blessed unit hits an enemy.

Edit: Argh! My fomulas are wrong. Thanks for the correction!

Re: Blessings balance?
 

The actual formulas were:

Chance = (damage dealt)/(base hitpoints)*100%

Cursed units had a (Chance + 25%) chance of getting an affliction. Regenerating units had (Chance/10).

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Have we actually tested that it's base HPs? Way back when I was fooling with a teleporting Sphinx it was very noticeble that the afflictions started to accumulate rapidly when the HPs started to get low. Admittedly there will have been more hits by that stage but it didn't seem linear. Also, have you looked at dead guys? They all have afflictions.

These haven't been controlled tests but it's a strong perception -- what is the basis that it's otherwise?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I don't think anyone has ever tested it. I'm trying to find Johan or Kristoffer's post where they discuss it, but have had absolutely no luck so far.

I'm almost certain that I've seen dead units in the hall of heroes with no afflictions. I could be wrong though.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Dead units usually have afflictions, but not all the time.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I was thinking about the horror mark thing too, but it should be a very low chance. Having a ton of horror marked units is not only bad, it could be tedious, right? I've actually never experienced it before.

A little bit of life drain sounds cool, too.

=$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I'm not sure I agree. Fire-9 is a good bless when you have cheap and weak sacred troops (which incidentally tend to imply that you need high dominion as well thus increasing the cost of the strategy). Nature-9 gives you pretty nice combo of regeneration, lower affliction chances and berserk. Very good for nations with strong sacred troops (like Jotunheim or Machaka). Because those only need dominion of 5 and 6 it makes the strategy cheaper, allowing an option of taking second bless (perhaps water, or fire). So in my view fire, water and nature are the best blesses, but what is optimal depends on the nation.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Given the number of variables in the system that isn't proof I'm wrong but it's strong evidence. It's also supported because if it's based on current HP there should be more then 1 affliction -- going down 10HP 2 at a blow averages 2.83, 50HP one at a time is 5, 100HP all at once just 1. JK *could* have tweaked it but, 95%, I was wrong and it's the base HP. (Base HP always averages one.)

Re: Blessings balance?
 

*remains curious why the blood blessing has yet to be commented on by someone with knowledge*

...

PS -- Someone with awesome powers should add blood slave icons to the Graemlins list.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

All the magic pips should be added..

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Maybe because the blood blessings are the same like in Doms 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Blessings balance?
 

That's very likely.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Newbie question related to blessings.

I have a rainbow pretender, lvl 4 archmage, in all forms of magic. The strategy being he goes from province to province searching for magic sites, lv4 gives 100% chance of success I believe. Is this a good strategy?

When my priests bless my sacred troops, it looks like I am just getting air shield, 20% missle defense. Why am I not getting the other lvl 4 blesses? Or am I and I am not noticing? If I am getting just air shield, why?

This is currently in the Dominions 2 demo, other than changes in bless powers, is the bless system still basically the same in Dominions 3?

Thanks in advance to anyone who shares there wisdom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Blessings balance?
 

You do get the other lvl 4 blesses, at least you should. They are just less noticeable. You should see the Lesser Fear icon though.

As for all LVL 4 blesses...hmmm, I do not know. Does it work for you?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Other blessings are shown when you look at the affected ability. You will notice that your units will have higher attack, defence, strengh and magic resistance when blessed.

you ahould also se your units gaining fear and beserk unless you allready have it, then the value should be higher.

Under fatigue you should also see that your units have reinvigoration.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Most of the level 4 blesses are worth it. Fire, Water and Blood increase Attack, Defense and Strength, Earth gives reinvigoration which also helps sacred mages, etc. However, they aren't all worth as much for all the nations. The lightly armoured recruitable units of Kailasa (EA monkeys) don't need reinvigoration, and one of their two good mages is already able to cast Earth Power for reinvigoration, but Defense helps their survivability, Att and Str help with all their multiple attacks, Regeneration isn't that good because they still die quickly when someone manages to hit them, etc.

If you don't have a reason, it's usually not worth it to take everything up to level 4. I think level 2 already discovers most sites, and 3 gets you virtually all sites. The few rare ones aren't worth the points for site-search alone.

Also, as in Dom2, only the starting paths are considered for blessings. Fire 4 pretender with lots of fire boosters will only give +2 Att, and the blessing won't change if he dies or becomes mute either.

One, maybe two level 4 blessings, and other paths at levels one to three, should be enough. The paths your national mages can supply can be left out altogether if you don't have spesific plans in mind. Paths only your pretender could use, but you don't plan on using, can also be left out.

In Dom3, a rainbow pretender available from the very beginning can be very effective in giving your research a nice boost, and searching for sites before there are many spells that could target him. Dormant rainbow could work, but imprisoned would be too risky - unless you only wanted spesific path combinations for items, e.g. Astral/Earth or Fire/Death for spesific boosters.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Based on what everyone said above (thanks), just checked out my Serpent Dancers a bit more closely. It looks like they r getting all the bonuses they should get. My pretender only had 4F, 4Air, 4W, 4E and 4B, had already changed to avoid getting the magic my national mages already had. So that explains why no berserk/lesser fear.

Still a bit confused by reinvigoration +2. The only plus unaccounted for on the serpent dancers is +1 encumberance. Is this cased by +2 reinvigoration or is fatigue staying at 0 because of the +2 reinvigoration?

Endoperez says:-
The few rare ones aren't worth the points for site-search alone.

R the citadel of Pyriphelegeton (pyromancer,adepts), the glowing hill (Daoine Sidhe), moonvine circle (enchanters) and horses vale (horse brother) all examples of rare lvl 4 sites? Got all those before turn 20 in my current game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Blessings balance?
 

What pretender you used and what your scales were?

Re: Blessings balance?
 

The serpent king (playing C'tis), turmoil 1, sloth 1, heat 1, luck 1.

Province where I observed my serpent dancers in battle is under another pretenders influence/dominion, -1 dominion, turmoil 1, drain 1 and growth 1.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Interesting, I ough to try something like that out.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Enc and reinvigoratiobn are different things, so second case is right : you get 1 fatigue due to enc1 then cures it by reinvig2, so it stays at 0.
Special reinvig bonuses are shown in the "fatigue" tooltip/window, not the enc one.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Crown of Darkness (3 death gems, Thaumaturgy bonus 40, disease), Library of Time (4 Astral gems, allows recruitment of Shadow Seers), Prison of the Desert Sun (5 fire gems, increases Heat a lot) and The Factory (3 earth gems, an entering Earth mage will get one free Mechanical Man/turn) are some examples of level 4 sites.

Moonvine Circle is Nature 1. Horses Vale is Nature 0, so it's already visible when you conquer the province. The Citadel of Pyriphlegaton and The Glowing Hill are both Fire 2. These four are all Uncommon and Unique according to a list of all Dominions magic sites.


Rareness doesn't always mean the more rare site is better, either. Level 4 sites are all pretty good, but there are some level 3 sites that only give you one gem, and as you found out, there are lots of very good level 2 sites. As an example, Well of Pestilence is a common Death 3 site. It increases Death scale, which makes provinces with abnormal Death scale usually a good investment for a Dark Knowledge (which finds all Death sites) even if you only have Death through random picks, but a common Death 2 mage can't find it with normal searching even if you knew that something strange was going on. However, there are other sites, even non-Death ones, that could also cause Death scale.

One or two in most paths, 4 in one or two, works. In Dom3, you can't have that pretender in the early game. C'tis with Sauromancers is Early Age in Dom3, and has Heat Preference 2, so you'll have few more points to play with. Frost Father has Water 1 and Air 1. Because even one pick in a path makes a difference when you go to higher levels, he is probably the cheapest option for Water 4, and I didn't find any competitors who had 10-point paths and either Fire or Blood.
With only Heat 1 and otherwise same scales, and only Dominion 5, you could have four paths at 4, and one at 2. With 40 points from Heat 2, which you'd have, you could get F4A4E4W4B4. However, you don't necessarily need Earth blessing, and Air is quite weak. You could get F4W4B4, and spend the other points on A3E2S3N2. Now you have access to much higher Astral and Nature that you normally would (well, Nature isn't particularly high, but Nature/Astral has one more path booster, Moonvine Bracelet). E2 is enough for a booster, S2 and S2E2 get you two Astral boosters, etc. Nature 2 is also what is needed for the first Nature booster, and with a Thistle Mace, your Shamans can cast Haruspex, the site-searching spell for Nature sites. It finds every nature site in the chosen province.

This still isn't optimal, but it's pretty good. It's more cost-effective than your build. Of course, there are other builds which could use paths similar to those you used. Fountain of Blood, as an example, could be used for B4 or maybe even 6, and summon some demons with those varied paths. Demon Knights, Storm Demons, plain old Devils, Blood items... Fire, Water and Blood would help you a bit in the beginning, giving you more powerful sacreds. Earth also has its uses, if you use Shamans in communion, or as battle casters with path boosters.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

where is the list of all sites?

found it

Re: Blessings balance?
 

www.freewebs.com/dominions2 has one. Fourth link/file in the Game Info section. It's based on Dom2 info.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

Cheers Endoperez. Lots of great info here. Will after study pretender selection some more I see. Hurry up Dom 3 then I can explore the high level stuff.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I posted some examples of extreme bless. I was able to get all 4's and 1 or 2 9's depending on the pretender. You tended to take low dominion stregth and tried to stay outside of your dominion since it was all harmful scales but for some nations that wasnt so bad either.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

That sounds insane. I hope I don't see that happening too often in my MP games. Troops with every level 4 blessing seems....well, retarded to me. At least the pretender doesn't come out for ~36 turns to rainbow search.

=$=

Re: Blessings balance?
 

You mean the sleeping-god start?
I did that in Dom2. Im not sure what I can get in Dom3 using the new sleeping rules.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

That kind of pretender is OK for ashen empire. as every gem may be alchemized to death to spawn more commanders.
its a standard to me in those themes.
in Dom3 you are not forced to have a sleeping god.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

I wouldn't worry- level 9 blessings are generally quite a bit more effective.

Re: Blessings balance?
 

That's a bit off-topic, but I always wondered...

What effect does Blood blessing have on Mictlan Sun Warriors ? They have javelins, you know. And both range and power of javelins are based on strength. If I remember correctly, range is strength/2.
The question is: does Blood blessing actually make javelins better ? It should increase their range, but does it have negative effect on accuracy or what ? I ask because it would make sense that it's harder to hit a target that's further away, and units tend to throw javelins from max range. So would Blood blessing work in my favor when using javelins ?
I assume Sun Warriors are still present in Dominions3.