SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but if anyone knows, I'd be curious:

* Is there any way to create a new ship design with anything but the latest tech levels? I don't see an option to do that (except by copying an earlier design and only using components from a design when the tech level was lower).

PvK

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

No, there is no direct way to add older versions of components at this time. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it though myself if I'm ok with it or not.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

I think it's a foolish limitation. There's many times I like to use lower tech levels, for example, shields. In SEIV, when I'm researching phased shields, but only have the first 2 or 3 levels, I still put Shields 5 on my ships rather than Phased Shields 2. Sometimes it's a necessary thing.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Those items are separate already. Phased-Shields are not in the same "family" as regular Shields.

And Engines have also been separated, which IMO is the most usual use of older components, so that's why I probably don't care all that much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Speaking of the engines, is this intended or a bug? In SEIV you had to use all quantum engines in order to get the movement bonus, but in SEV you can use (almost) all ion, and stick on one quantum and still get the bonus..

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

I'd call that a bug. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Since construction points spill over to the next project now, there is much less purpose for using older components for build cost optimization.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

On ships after the 1st..that 1st ship however will (potentially) take longer to complete.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Only if you start from an empty queue. Whatever points are remaining after the previous item will spill over to that first ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

True..but then again, my queues spend more time empty than full, so it's a valid problem for me..

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Plus, queues start empty.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Well, I'd like the option to use older versions of components in new ships. In SEIV, from time to time I don't use the latest version of everything on my new ships because:

(1) The latest version is more expensive and I want to save on maintenance cost
or
(2) I'm building a ship that I intend to trade with another empire and I don't want to give them my latest technology.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

What Kamog said. Also, mods may have more interesting decisions about which version to use than are in the default tech tree... unless the UI remains with this limitation.

Also it is an issue that you can get around it by wasting your time making designs to upgrade from. Any time a UI doesn't let you do something easily, but does let you do something that can be advantageous, but only if you waste a lot of time doing something tedious, is a headache.

PvK

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

The problem here is the level system for techs...basically you turning your +1 APB into a +2 APB, and once you have it, there is no need to go back...I'm wondering how many mods will remove the levels all together...I'm seriously considering it...

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Except there are several people who say that they really would like to have the ability to go back. So I'd say the need to go back, does exist.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Preaching to the choir...

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Lol..I was just saying. It didn't look, to me, that you were 'for' the ability to 'go back'.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

A mod where you could have such interesting choices could also have two or three separate component lines, geared towards these different choices, right?

You could also reduce or eliminate cost increases, to ameliorate the need to make cheaper ships for maintenance purposes. Start the initial levels at a higher cost, reduce the absurd 100 levels of everything to more sane numbers...

Useful or no, I don't know that you will be able to convince Aaron to allow obsolete levels to be used at this point.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

True, but I'm easily sure that the level thing can be moded in or out as needed...its just a formula...right?

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Yes, you could make a mod have only 1 level of all components. It would make for a cluttered interface though, as the concept of families and roman numerals is replaced by the one entry per component line. You will have every explicit level showing in the design screen, and you will not be able to upgrade from APB I to APB II, have to manually replace.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Well it would be nice, if the next level of research could have a different 'flavor name' or something to that effect...I can see instances in some mods I want to make where it would be more appropriate to have a name for a new improved version of a component, than just a alpha/numeric increase in name...

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Seems like it is nearly removing an option that existed in SE4. Many of the techs in Proportions mod, for example, can be researched to high levels for eventually diminishing returns but high costs. They are still useful to use for elite units, but one may consider whether they want fewer units with the best technology can offer, or cheaper more numerous units with less impressive technology.

In addition to the other uncountered reasons why someone might want to use lower tech, here's another: What if you want to build a new ship design, but don't want enemies to be able to scan it and find out your tech levels, or you want to deceive them into thinking you have lower tech than you do? Better use an old design, because it's just impossible to make new designs using old tech?

But no, I just have to remember to pre-make designs with enough of the old components on them to be able to copy and edit later - so I can still do it (except for different hull sizes I haven't researched yet), but only if I waste time making extra designs just to give me options I otherwise won't have because the UI won't let me.

PvK

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

It'd be especially handy for multiplayer where you sometimes end up building lots of ships to trade, but don't want them to have the highest tech, or even if you're just building scouts that you know have a good chance of winding up captured, you don't want to give your enemies free tech.

The thing is, the way the tech works in SE5, each tech level doesn't have it's own entry, there's just the one entry for a certain field (ie: Meson Blasters) and then a formula describes what happens as you increase in tech.
In SE4, you had seperate entries for each tech level, so each level of tech could be seen as a seperate object, so in SE4, you had 10 different Meson Blasters, each with it's own stats, whereas in SE5 you have 1 Meson Blaster with stats that vary according to your tech level.

So, while it'd sure be nice to use older tech, it's probably not feasible in SE5.

Edit: Unless there was an option in the design screen that said 'Use Current Tech' or 'Use Tech X Generations Old' where X is a user definable number. Then a formula could be applied to the current techs to 'reverse' them to the level you desired. Of course, it'd be kinda clunky if you wanted to use engines that were 5 techs old, APBs that were 10, shields that were 7 etc., but it's the only way I can think of doing it.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

AZ: I dunno. The game works fine with older techs that are already in use. I can't see why it would be harder than adding a selector for component level.

I'd like to be able to compare different levels of component also so that I can see what I'm getting for my research. Right now it's hard to tell if you are getting deminishing returns; especially if you haven't used the last version anywhere.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

How can you tell what version of hull is used in your old ship designs? Does it say anywhere what level of frigate hull, for example, was used in a particular ship design?

I could only try to figure it out by looking at the structure kT...

When copying an outdated component from an old ship design, is there a way to install the old component into a newer hull version? For example, say you have a saved design for an old frigate level 1 which has a depleted uranium cannon level 1. You have now researched up to frigate level 2 and DUC level 2. Is there a way to copy the DUC1 from the old design and place it onto a frigate level 2?

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

That's a good point, Slick. Tech comparison chart anyone?

What I was getting at with the 'Use X Generations Old' idea was that while it's probably possible to add in the ability to select what tech levels you want, something like SE4's View All/Only Latest probably wouldn't be feasible. Not that I'm sure one would want it to be, given the number of techs that go up to 100. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Hmm, and I suppose if you did make a mod where different levels were different techs, then it wouldn't be possible to only see the latest ones.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Not that I'm aware of. The only place where a hull's level is mentioned is in the ship selection portion of the design screen, & that only shows the latest hulls available.

Not yet.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

How about having "Used", "New", and "Bleeding Edge" versions of each component.

This would be an actual use for filters, too!

New components could be normal as we are all used to.
Used components could be half price, and -5 levels worth.
Bleeding Edge components could be double price and +3 levels worth

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Another way to do it would be a variation of SE4 style, with two entries for every component...

One copy of the component (level X) requires EXACTLY tech level X, and will dissappear when you get level X+1. It gets a category of "Show Only Latest".

The other copy of component (level X) requires tech level X or higher. It gets a category of "Show All"

There should then be two filter options, the Show All and the Show Only Latest, which do as they say.


The downside is that you won't be able to build any ships designed using the "only latest" components once you have advanced in tech (Since they will become unavailable, which looks the same as insufficient tech)

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Nice idea, SJ... and sorta kinda a work-around, hmm, though it sounds like it means modding both the SE4 way and the SE5 way, twice. Lots of work, but it could be close to working the right way. So if I have a weapon tech that has three levels, it'd be:

Category: Death Ray - Latest Only
Death Ray component (SE5 definition of levels 1-3)
Category: Death Ray - Show All
Death Ray Level 1 component (SE4-like definition of one level)
Death Ray Level 2 component (SE4-like definition of one level)
Death Ray Level 3 component (SE4-like definition of one level)
Category: All Equipment - Latest Only
Death Ray component (SE5 definition of levels 1-3)
Category: All Equipment - Show All
Death Ray Level 1 component (SE4-like definition of one level)
Death Ray Level 2 component (SE4-like definition of one level)
Death Ray Level 3 component (SE4-like definition of one level)

That would allow users to do what they can do in SE4 - sort either by type, or show all types, and either show latest, or all tech levels. Takes more than twice as much mod copy/paste as in SE4, though I guess, as in SE4, someone can eventually write a UI/script that can generate the needed mod code.

Or, MM could fix the UI so it lets you select older versions of components (and vehicle sizes...).

PvK

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Yes, this is a loss of functionality and game play options. We complained about it several times. Like we complained about many other things several times (*cough* clumsy UI *cough*). MM is just so busy trying to program an entire 4X game by himself that he fumbles and forgets things. We have to get together and stage a coordinated protest to get him to focus on something.

As with everything else, a bunch of ordinary players emailing him about the issues that we raised my make him finally do something...

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Considering other things which could be improved, I find this one a pretty low priority.
Personally it never even crossed my mind using a lower level component.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Very true. I think this is one of those molehills on the landscape of SE5.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

while I would personaly like to have the option of using older tech, I probibly wouldn't do it enough to warrent bugging aaron to code the option.
there's too much other stuff I would rather him spend time on.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

While I would agree that there are a whole lot of other bugs that need to be fixed first, the fix to this may be easy and, perhaps more importantly, if no one tells Aaron that it's a problem then there is zero chance of him fixing it. I say tell him and let him make the call.

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

Cant this be done another way in game? For example, if you want to have an outdated design kicking around, just leave an outdated design kicking around. You designed Destroyer III, then its been updated to Destroyer VI and now you want III back, just:

1. Dont make it obsolete
2. Uncheck the filter so you can see obsolete ships.

Sure its slightly clunky but it should work and without programing.

It seems to me that we're all pushing ourselves up against a wall trying to make SEv do exactly what SEiv did, and ignoring all our new options...

Re: SEV question - new design tech levels?
 

One thing I've noticed is that cost does not increase with each level nearly as much as it did in SE4, so there's a lot less reason to want older, cheaper components. I think people are mostly upset because they can't think of a way to have a mod where someone might knowingly design ships with cheaper, but less capable components. But I've never liked the idea of older tech remaining viable, anyway. If older tech is still viable, why waste the research on the new stuff?

This just means people have to come up with new (and in my opinion, better) ideas of accomplishing this type of situation. SJ's idea is a good one, here's another:

You have two entries for a component. One is the standard model where it gets better and more expensive as the levels go up. The other is the "inferior" model that doesn't improve as fast, but the cost doesn't go up. Maybe it even goes down with each level. So you can still have the "quality vs. quantity" dichotomy without decreasing the value of research.

Personally, I don't see any good reason to spend a lot of effort making older tech levels selectable. I think most of the complaints are simply because people haven't thought up ideas to fit the new system yet.