About intel in se5
 

Hey ho.

Haven't actually had a chance to download the demo yet, so maybe someone here can help.

Can anyone tell me whether se5's intel is divided into 'projects' like se4? In other words, am I going to have to go through the wiki and divide each project entry into two? For example splitting 'Crew Insurrection' into 'Crew Insurrection (SEIV)' and 'Crew Insurrection (SEV)'

Re: About intel in se5
 

You pick a focus area only and so do not have direct control over which projects are happening. They are picked randomally and more-or-less match the projects that were in SE:IV. Other than that the mechanics work the same - so I think it's a step backwards myself.

Re: About intel in se5
 

So the old projects are still there, you just don't have any direct control over which ones get carried out. That means I'm going to have to split all the entires doesn't it?

Bugger.

As for se5... Bit of an annoyance that you can't influence what project gets undertaken - even if you had a 'priority' list that you assign to agents or something, that weights the random-selection code to make items near the top of the list more likely to be carried out than others.

I assume it also means you can't target specific planets and ships for your mischief. Maybe Malfador ought to tweak this system a little bit before release of the full game. Perhaps, along with the list of priority projects, there could be a list of priority targets, or even priority star-systems. It still offers no guarantees, and you may end up hitting an enemy ship with 'ship bomb' when you wanted 'crew insurrection' but at least the player would get some degree of control.

PS: Thanks Kwok =-)

Re: About intel in se5
 

It seems MM made the unsatisfactory intel system of SE IV worse! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
That is not exactely what I would call a progress.

Re: About intel in se5
 

I agree. Intel just doesn't seem like a good area to introduce randomness. By making the Intel missions random, it actually sucks all the strategy out of it. In SEIV, if I know of a (enemy)ship that is heading to an area where I really don't want it to be, I can bomb it, or do any number of other fun/nasty things to it through intel. In SEV all I can do is switch to Espionage-Ship, and just hope that something eventually happens to the ship. Unless Intel is changed(or modded to be like, or better than, SEIV) I think I'll just stick to Intel-Defense and completely ignore the rest.

Re: About intel in se5
 

As I understand it, it is like SE3's system, with finer-grained focus options.

Not letting players choose specific projects and targets, while being a reduction in control, is IMO a gameplay improvement.

Se3's system wasn't too bad; how often did intel have to be outlawed?
Se4's system is not that good; how often do we ever play a PBW game with intel enabled? Even heavily modded, it just dosen't work well.


It might be ok if the cost of a targeted project was 10x higher than normal, random "targets of opportunity".

Re: About intel in se5
 

Reducing the strategic depth of the game is an improvement? I just don't understand that one. In any case, if Intel is so overpowered/unbalanced maybe it should be eliminated completely (or at least disabled by default). Eliminating/disabling it, seems better to me than completely nerfing it.

Re: About intel in se5
 

I'm saying that gameplay is improved by having an SE3 style system over what amounts to nothing thanks to being always disabled.

I am also saying that I suspect specific target control could be made playable if it had a sufficient cost premium.
Random targets of opportunity, which present themselves as easy opportunities... vs a focussed effort against a particular target which probably won't be making itself easy to hit.

For example, planting random bombs could be done by slipping some rigged weapons into a resupply depot's ordnance stocks. Bombing a specific ship right now is much harder.

Re: About intel in se5
 

Some valid points SJ.

There's also some problems with project costs and effects with stock intel as well. For example, the Delete Research project will subtract 10,000,000 points from a target's project - rather than just set it back to 0, it actually goes like -10,000,000 points and then takes 200 years to research! Another example is that planet rebellion only costs 5,000 intel points... nor that the effect amounts for some projects are just too high - easily wiping out the resource stores of a player in the early game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: About intel in se5
 

Couldnt these be considered bugs?

Re: About intel in se5
 

And can the costs be modded?

Re: About intel in se5
 

Yes, they can be changed in the intelligence script. I've posted modified versions of the Intel/Event scripts that are a bit more forgiving than those in stock.

Updated Intel/Event scripts:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/mod...oad&id=316

Extract these into your data folder. It's a good idea to back up the originals though.

Re: About intel in se5
 

For solo SEIV play, I've always thought being able to pick intel projects is a LOT of fun.

Re: About intel in se5
 

On a positive note individual intel projects can be modded into SE:V with a bit of work. The only downside I see right now is that you wouldn't be able to run more than 1 type of project per turn against an empire and it might go for multiple instances of the same project in a turn as well.

Re: About intel in se5
 

In SEIV, I'd use the crew insurrection intel project directed against specific A.I. colony ships that wandered into my space to capture their population and colonization tech.

But I like the new SEV way too. That trick in SEIV was kind of gamey.

Re: About intel in se5
 

Is there any randomness to the success chances, or is it still more or less "if you spend more points, your missions work; if you spend less, they fail"? (That was I think the main failing of the SE4 system.)

Re: About intel in se5
 

You can mod the scripts to make it have a random factor...

Re: About intel in se5
 

How does counter-intel work? It looks like it's better than the strange system in SEIV where you build up counter-intel points and not let the project complete because then the points are wasted.

Re: About intel in se5
 

Seems to me that has a lot of potential to be much better than SE4, then, depending on how it can be made to work in practice.

Re: About intel in se5
 

Well these are csf files, so you can't see what is in it.
Could you post the corresponding original txt files?
But without the possibility to target a intel operation to a specific planet/ship, I will hardly use intel in my games anyway. That was the only reason I used intel in SE IV and in SE III intel was not worth the effort at all IMO.

Re: About intel in se5
 

The .txt file just contains the game code for what projects are under what category and their various effects and the appropriate references to log entries etc. It should be fairly flexible - but I don't think without hard-code changes and extra UI stuffs if you can get it to do direct user-chosen targets. I'm not sure though if I should post the uncompiled versions at this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I think SJ's points on the directed versus random intel were pretty valid. Perhaps in a future patch, directed projects could be added in at higher cost.

Re: About intel in se5
 

Seems to me that intel should mainly be about information gathering rather than direct attacks, especially if the system is going to be a generic point-based system and allow specific targets. That was what I thought was most broken about SE4 intel - you could target specific units and planets AND you could ensure success by out-spending your victim, which is just wrong and not very fun, at least to my mind. I've actually been in games where one side has a strong enough military to resist, but its people are dying and ships are being captured left and right to an onslaught of intel attacks, and even though there are (ridiculous) countermeasures such as making lots of mothballed decoy ships and re-capture ships and trasports to hold population above planets who are killing wiped out by contamination every turn, there are still problems like losing your training on ships even when you recapture them, and, well, it was way out of proportion and silly.

I'd like to have specific targeting back though... especially if it could be available only to some missions, on a mod-able basis. E.g., I'd like to be able to target a specific planet for a cargo information mission, but I don't want my best ships to be specifically targetable for en masse crew insurrection.

At least modding can remove missions or nerf them to heck, and with the ability to affect chances, modders can do things like set crew insurrection and planetary rebellions to having a very small chance for success, so it can sometimes happen, but not always nor even usually.

PvK

Re: About intel in se5
 

Yeah, what PVK just said. Except I think a "priority list" system might be a nice compromise between targetted and untargetted intel: You could have a list of specific ships/ planets (which means you have to have seen those ships or planets, or have found them via intel) which your agents will try to go for - but there will still be a random element.

Re: About intel in se5
 

Well, sometimes you really need to have a specific ship disabled. I mean if a star destroyer is heading to one of your systems...
Anyway, I can live without most of the sabotage stuff, but I'd like to keep the ship bomb. Although to balance it out a bit more, maybe make it more likely to fail, if it's used too many times in a row. For the most part though, it might be better if Intel was just for info gathering...unless people can come up with a way to balance it out...

Re: About intel in se5
 

If the ship is already on its way, you don't stand a chance of getting operatives aboard to blow it up.

Delivering ordnance via warship makes far more sense.

Re: About intel in se5
 

I just know that I didn't use intel in SE III, which has a very similar system as now SE V, because I judged the effect to small to be relevant. For SE IV I used a heavily modded intel system, which certainly was not perfect, but at least gave some profit for the investement you put into intel point generation.
I would have prefered if MM had kept the project for offensive intel as in SE IV, gave the projects a moddable chance of failure even in the absence of any counter intel and made counter intel with priority areas like they are now for attacking intel.
Like it is now I fear that I will switch off intel completely very often in my games.