Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I have to say that in catching up on all of the postings on SEV I have a growing concern about it.

Oh, I'll probably still purchase it, but it may stay uninstalled until I see how people are reacting to it.

I'll purchase it to support Malfador, but if there are major issues being reported I won't play it (and become frustrated) until they are addressed.

I would like to see a sort of comprehensive review by one of the "lifers" that doesn't run the risk of dying the "death of a thousand qualifications".

I play mostly single-player. Multiplayer sounds good to me, but my work schedule always seems to torpedo my attemps, sooner or later.

I confidently plopped down my reservation money, and barring a real show-stopper being reported I will buy the game (to support the effort - I do this farily often) - but I would have to honestly say that it is shifting from a "gotta install it and play right now" to a "I'll get it and hold off installing until I seem how it goes."

I don't want to get a bad-tase in my mouth from the get-go. So we will see.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Although if you've noticed a lot of players who made the early posts are slowly being converted over to SE:V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Of course that doesn't mean there are not some interface improvements and some bug-fixing that aren't needed. Just that some of the issues was getting used to the changes from SE:IV to SE:V and that a lot features in SE:V are pretty good for play.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I have no real doubt about SEV. I just know myself and I can quickly ramp up on the exasperation meter. So it might be better for me to hold off a bit if there are any real clunkers at the get-go.

I also wanted to comment on a number of post where people seem to wish that SEV was really an even more complex SEIV. My general response to this would be, go check out VGA planets. They did exactly that in the last version and a number of people I know quit playing because the level of detail became too overwhelming. But if you really want to manage everything, and I mean nearly everything, then VGA planets4 allows you to do that.

I switched to SEIV from Stars! because Crisium could not develop the necessary $ to keep going. I still think that Stars! propulsion and race design are better than SEIVs, but that's my opinion.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

For me the decision is quite clear: I buy the game as soon as possible in spite of the imperfections and bugs. But I enjoy playing the demo therefore I am pretty sure I enjoy the full game. Until now I had almost no technical problems and I get more and more used to the interface and displays, which can and should certainly be improved.
However I am also quite sure that I will continue to play SE IV as it will take a long time for SE V to achieve a comparable level of perfection and variety.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

The interface is growing on me as well, I'll have to see if I can get a topical spray to knock it back a bit.

I have pre-ordered at a local game store, so my money is where my mouth is.

I was frustrated with SE:IV's interface when we first had that, transitioning from SE:III. Unless you have a nearly-identical interface screen for a new version, it always takes a bit to get used to.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I'm going to wait for the bug reports on the full game. I don't want to get fustrated over it either, so I'll wait till it's playable.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Nope, buying ASAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I'll buy it immediatly, even if its slightly buggy. Heck, the Demo is buggy, cripled and has a 100 turn limit, and I'm enjoying THAT.

I'd rather not hold off, then have to read here how much fun everyone is having, then have to run down to EBgames, find out that they are out, then order it on the web, have to wait another week for shipping... Then I'm futzing around with the Demo while everyone else is playing the real deal...

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

A lot of people have posted a lot of negative sentiments that were way out of proportion to the actual problems, and as I predicted would happen a couple of times on this board, people were starting to listen to them and get bummed out on the game, even if those problems didn't bother them much before reading those posts. Thankfully, most have gotten used to the new interface and stopped complaining so much, so it looks like my point about SEV being smothered in the cradle by its own fans the way Fallout Tactics was will prove to be happily wrong.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

So I finally got the demo and installed it. After playing for a bit I will have to throw my hat into the UI needs improvement ring. I won't go into details, but I will say that I missed the clean, crisp SEIV interface. The only thing I didn't like about the SEIV interface is that you can't re-arrange the windows.

I found building a ship to be quite time and click consuming - but I will keep at it and see if it is a perception thing.

I do like the multi-deck thing, although I'm not quite sure I understand the reasons for it.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Just to have more slots on the ships. That's it.

And the SEIV interface was..er..not crisp. Especially if played at 800x600.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Let's please be respectful of each other's opinions.

My "negative sentiments" were and are NOT "way out of proportion to the actual problems." My negative sentiments are a reflection of ACTUAL PROBLEMS. I think you will find most people who expressed negative things were indicating what they honestly believe to be real, actual, game-frustrating or game-breaking problems.

Perhaps "most" have gotten used to the new interface. I don't know. I can't and won't try to speak for most people in this forum. It's a bit forward for you to attempt to do so.

But I HAVE NOT gotten used to the new interface. I don't like it. I tried to like it. But I don't. I set the demo aside and then went back to it. Nothing. And it's not just a matter of 'liking' it or not--in some respects (the ship size, for example), it's hard on the eyes. The need to zoom in or zoom out to see the ships or see the system is a real hassle. It's more trouble than it's worth. 3D? So what.

I have not posted any more complaints about the SEV demo out of respect for those who do like it or have come to like it. I expressed my own opinion about it several times in several threads. I said what I had to say. I'm sure you and others do not want to hear me endlessly repeating myself.

There's no need for me to make the same complaints over and over and over. I don't have the desire nor the energy to come here day after day and argue about a computer game.

Besides, others have said the same things much more forcefully and in considerably more detail than I did.

I hope you are not implying that people should only post comments about SEV if they are positive comments. I hope you understand that many of us who have been posting here for years and years and have less-than-positive things to say about SEV are not just complainers. We really, REALLY want(ed) SEV to be a better game than SEIV. We want(ed) to have a great game to play and we wanted Aaron to be well-rewarded for his hard work.

As far as SEV in its current form goes, Aaron can make changes or not. It's his game and it's not up to me. If you like SEV, then great. Maybe someday I will change my mind about it. But for now, it's just not my cup of tea.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Arg.

I'm going to repeat this again. You don't need to see the ships!

If you -want- to break your fingers on an aethetic issue, that's fine, but I find it really amusing considering how many complaints were made over the move to 3d being about "flashy graphics not good gameplay."

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Why not?

Maybe you don't, but I do. What's the point of playing a game about space empires and conquering the universe with fleets of ships if you can't see the ships? Half the reason for downloading the myriad of shipsets available for SEIV is playing with those beautiful ships!

One of the coolest things about playing the Klingons in Atrocities' Star Trek mod is...the ships! I grew up watching Trek in the 1960s and I'll tell you, I always thought the Klingons had better ships than the Federation. The Romulans too.

Now that I'm all grown up I'm tickled pink that I can come home from work and move Klingon (or Illuminati, or Crugarian, etc.) battle bruisers across my computer screen and have a few moments of fantasy relaxation far from the RL world. I love watching my ships pass through a new system. I love watching them fight!

What's the point of "3D" graphics and warp points that undulate and rotatable system views when you no longer have the pleasure of watching your ships? They might as well just be represented by a couple pixels of light.

If you don't think it's important to see the ships, that's perfectly fine. To each his own. But perhaps you should say "I don't need to see the ships" (meaning you yourself don't need to see them). For me, seeing my ships is a big deal, and not seeing them any more is a step backward, and a game-breaker.

But if that's the way it's going to be for SEV, that's a design decision and that's OK. My opinion is just my opinion. This is not a debating society. I'm not going to change your mind and it's not my place to even try. You certainly are not going to change mine. Everybody is free to buy the game or not.

And here I am repeating things I've said before in other threads...

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I get that you dislike not being able to see the ships on the system screen (never mind that they're bigger in combat, and in the sector view).

The point is that is NOT a UI issue. Its a bit like saying the game is bugged because Null Space Projectors are seekers.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

If you don't need to see the ships, that's great. But some of us do and its not an aesthetic issue. Why bother having flashy 3d graphics if you can't see them and enjoy the game?
Why should modders be bothered to make shipsets (which are very popular) if all you can see is some small dot when viewing the entire system. Maybe MM should shrink the planets -don't need to see them either.

I know you can change the shipsize but its time consuming and tedious. The graphics seem way out of proportion imo.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Don't be concerned. The game is only going to get better.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

That is ONE thing I dislike. And I'm not a complete idiot, Phoenix; I know that ship size itself is not a UI issue.

But the need to zoom in and out to see them IS a UI issue. And there are other things about the UI that I strongly dislike.

But others have said everything I could possibly say, in great detail.

I don't like the game. Maybe you do. More power to you. I don't want to argue about it.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Hey, you just defined an aethetic issue! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Or at least what I *meant* when I said that.

And that's all I'm going to say about that, other than to note that I hope you never encounter drones in SE5 combat (oh dear are those things tiny).

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I've made a suggestion to Aaron to allow for a display setting under Empire Options to make the ships bigger on the system map. Combined with a reduction in the flag size - it would make a big difference.

But it is a valid concern... I certainly like to see the ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Bug or not, he has an interesting point.

What's the point of playing a game about "space empires", with "spaceships", if your not able to see them in space.

Might as well just use an icon to represent them and not bother with shipsets at all, IMO. But then, that kills some of the fun of the game.

Kind of like not being able to see the ships does....

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Its a playbility issue causing uneeded frustration. Even though I like SEV more after playing the demo a few more times- in its present state its not worth buying it at this time. Not for just this issue but all of them as a whole. I hve built the drones. They are way too small. But I think some should wait for SEVI: the text based version. no graphics at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

So, STARS minus a few bitmaps? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Crisp isn't perhaps the correct term. I liked the look, it was spartan and futuristic.

For instance, in the ship design UI it felt to me like I had to move my mouse a great deal more, and over longer distances to put componenets on my ships.

So for 'crisp' perhaps I was really looking for 'efficient'.

I don't mind the more cartoonish look over all, but I wouldn't mind the mouse cursor being about 1/4th the size it is.

Anyway, I can now see what some people have been on about concerning hard to see through the icons. I can live with that because you can tilt the map to see 'under' things. Cumbersome, yes, but not a deal-breaker.

Returning to ship building, does anyone know if you can, say, hold down a key and retain the component currently selected so as to quickly put multiples of the same componenet on a ship. If this is possible, a good part of my concern with this specific UI goes away.

Thanks,

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Pretty much and I still play STARS every once in while. Great game. But there's little point in arguing it. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine. I see little chance of it being changed.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Hold the shift key down to put multiple components on ships

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

That's the best point I've seen yet.

I play a game for fun and relaxation, not to add stress or frustration to my day. So far that's all I'm getting from my efforts to give SEV a chance. I have tried, over and over and over, to get past the issues that bug me and see what might be just around the corner.

I'm not seeing that corner at all.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Snafu: you want the SHIFT key. Hold it down while placing and another component pops onto the cursor. Just release it right before you place the last component.

Works for removing components as well.

The SE4 UI was a bit better than SE5's, but I don't think it was that efficient.

Santigo: now you've got me imaging a SE roguelike, too. Which would be..interesting, to say the least.

I think the drones are stealth. No see, no shoot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Holding down shift should let you place multiple components;
ie. select comp. -> hold shift -> place as many times as needed
edit: whoops, looks like Santiago got it before me

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Well then thousands will fit in a hex and the opposing player will never see them.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I don't have any trouble seeing ships. Maybe you just need to play at a higher screen resolution? They are nice and big at 1600x1200, and I can see the whole map still.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Yeah, that's one of the benefits of the bigger resolution is that you can zoom in more and see the ships much better. Add SJ's flag pack and your set if the small ships are an issue for you.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Zooming in is still a pain, tho. If people actually are doing that I can see why they'd dislike the demo.

And Santiago: I was being silly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Elsewhere you'll find me griping about the size of units in combat, where it -does- make a direct gameplay problem.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I spend 80-90% of my time traveling. Portabilty is everything. I play on a 10" laptop that weighs about 3 lbs. Resolution is limited. Kind of hard to justify carrying a monitor even if it is a flat screen lol. SE IV is perfect for it. I haven't tried SEV on the home pc. Maybe I will give that a try this weekend and see how it looks.

Actually playing SEIV between posts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@ Phoenix -D NP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Here's my 2 cents on the demo, The UI doesn't bother me because I've seen worse (I've also seen better). As for the demo grabbing me, it doesn't, but to be fair the SEIV demo didn't either. The thing that bothers me is the fact that when you enter a unexplored system you don't see the location of the planets. If we on Earth can see the planets with our current technology then you would think a space faring race would be able to at least know the planets location upon entering a new system.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Demo: that's easily fixed. There's an option in-game to make sight work like SE4, and more options in settings.txt if you want to, say, see only planets but not the enemy ships.

I'll point out that knowing the locations of the planets has come from several thousand years of observation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, a starship's basic sensors would probably be able to plot all a new system's planets pretty quickly.

EDIT: Santiago: 10"? Oy. I'm surprised you can even run SE5, since it requires 1024x768 resolution.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

You're out of date on laptops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

SO here's mine: if the Demo is any indication of how the final release will be, there is no way I am buying it. I know that I won't play it, and that I would just be aggravated by it. Why would I want to do that?

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Final release?

It sounds like you probably won't be happy with the initial release unless something surprisingly big happens.
But Aaron is well known for continuing upgrades in the long term. Mods won't be out for a few months anyways.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Sorry if I'm totally missing the point here but I'm not quite getting the "can't see the ships in space" point?

I'm at work at the moment, but I'm fairly certain the ships were in their hexes last time I looked? Or is this not quite what you meant.


Ooo, better yet, could you explain with screenshots?

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

At lower resolutions, it becomes harded to see the ships in the system view - and in particular some of small ships like Frigates and Destroyers are very hard to see - especially when you throw in the default-sized flags/icons.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

I like the 'fog of war' setting, BUT I do agree with Demorve that ships should see the whole system. If it were in a Nebulae/Cosmic Cloud then I could see limited detection. (Good idea for a mod) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

BTW, "level of sight" is a game setup option in the full version just in case you didn't know.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Ok, so I've seen around 10 distinct "complaints" about the demo.

Around 5 of them turned out to be just changable options, (flag size, etc) that the poster(s) chose to complain about in overly forceful words ("I'll never buy this piece of crap, blah, blah until this is fixed!) rather than just poking around or asking a simple question.

2 or 3 of them boil down to "I'm used to SEIV and now I can't find stuff". Again, some posters choose to get out the big guns and start blasting away with "buggy piece of crap! I'll never buy this game, EVER!", instead of just asking a question.

Yea, fine, people are entitled to their opinion.

Heres mine: if you have to blast away with "I hate this buggy piece of crap and I'll never buy it EVER!" instead of just asking a question then you are being too negative.

There are so many new options and stuff to do and stuff that makes Space Empires LESS annoying that I cant believe the negative-fest here.

You know what I find annoying? When in SE4, one of my "allies" colonizes all the planets in MY systems! ARRRRGGGHHHHH. I'll never buy SE4 until they fix that buggy piece of crap. Oh yea, it IS fixed, in SEV.

You know what else I find annoying? Fighters are just one stack in SE4! Its not fair that a battleship can plow through my stack of fighters because the game conciders them one big stack! I'll never buy SE4 because its a buggy piece of crap! Good thing its fixed in SEV...

There are a couple minor, niggling little things in SEV that will probably be "updated" anyway, and don't HOLD A CANDLE to all the stuff thats been fixed, updated and just plain improved in SEV.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Touche

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

For example in 1024x768 resolution,

In SEIV its a top down view of the entire system and you can see where your ships are at any time just by glancing at the screen.

In SEV the star system is much bigger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. In a top down view (comparing to SEIV) and you zoom out to see the entire system- actually just 3/4 just to make it not too small, the ships are virtually non- existant. Flags were too big and the mini-flags help, but its still just frustration. Where are my ships? I waste time trying to find where they are currently at.

The bottom portion of the UI is too big in relation to the main game screen and hides part of the main screen where I like to have it at a particular playable size. It should be made individually to minimize.

Since I am restricted to playing in safe mode and not primary display adapter, it ends up being windowed and cuts off a small portion of the game even moving the window for maximum visibility and the scrolling of the game screen (this needs to be user selectable to on/off) results in scrolling of only 2 directions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

There are other issues brought up by others. If it was only a few items, then maybe it could be looked over. Seems more like mid beta than near release.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably cave in and buy it eventually, and I like a lot of things in it, but I think it really needs lots of work. Just my opinion. Now I came in at SEIV after it was already well patched and MM has a great reputation with the players and I'm hoping for the best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


@ Fyron Thanks for the email addy, this post or the other one.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

SJ,

that's a very valid point, and I take it to heart. Certainly, if Aaron does support SEV as well as I hope he will, then I will do a complete turnaround, and become as addicted to SEV as I was to SE4. But I have heard enough about how everything that has been brought up was brought up by the beta testers, but was ignored, and other things, etc...to make me cautious.

So...I'm likly going to be holding off for now. In any case my time frame for me to become addicted to and supportive of this game is measured in months and years, not weeks. In fact, I anticipate starting to really play it in about ten months, since I'l be quite busy until then. Ironically enough, that will be plenty of time for all buggy issues to be worked out, me to decide if I can tolerate the UI (or it changes), and a whole slew of mods to come out. I will certainly buy the game, but whether or not I play it for the next six years will be determined by how well it survives the test of time. And that depends, as you rightly point out, how well Aaron listens to the players and implements fixes and patches...

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

Well, I've played with the demo 3 times, and things do get easier, and some parts are nice to have, and ...

... but here is the thing. As it stands, SE:V is not a 'Just one more turn and I'll go to bed; no dear, I really mean it this time. Oh, I said that 45 minutes ago? Well this time I really, REALLY mean it !' kind of game yet.

Yes, I think it's probably a better game than it's predecessor, but because of a few previously mentioned UI and visual things, I really just cant enjoy this as much as I should be able to. I'll need to wait for some changes before I can wrap my time into this game. I expect that these changes will be made with Aaron's track record; but if not, "We'll always have Paris(SEIV)".

Until then, besides getting involved in that strange thing called 'Real Life', Shrapnel just started shipping Dominions-3.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

If it's a case of the ships appearing too small on the screen as Kwok mentioned - isn't that one of the file-changeable things? You could ask Fyron to quickly knock you up a script to go and alter them all, he's done it a few times with other files needing similar changes?

I play on a 19.1" monitor @ 1280x1024 - in windowed mode (1024x768) so I don't have to alt-tab all the time with my dual screens to get to the other monitor, and I can see my ships just fine in their hexes...

That said - I use the isometric view, with the view dragged all the way to the bottom, and just rotate the view a smidgen if I'm trying to click something on completely the opposite side of the system.

Re: Growing concern - but optimistic
 

It's changeable in the data files, but it is a specific value for each ship - so it should just have a multiplier - which shouldbe applied through an in-game setting...