SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I've played the demo a few times and tried out as many things as I could. I've looked at the data files. I've read the opinions of others. I've really worked at trying to like this game. I want to like this game. But it is just missing something intangible. I just don't get that "just one more turn" feeling. I have come to the realization that having to work at liking this game means that I just don't find it fun. I'm a huge SE fan and it hurts me to say these things but I think honesty is the best policy. I want so badly to like this game that I actually stopped playing the SE:V demo and started a new game of Starfury just to cheer me up a little. I'll give it some time to sink in.

I see huge potential for "funness" in this game but it's just not there yet. There's no single thing that has taken away the fun for me but here's a list of some things that I find disappointing:

- the UI. Enough said in other threads.

- the bugs; there are waaay too many at T-minus-one-month to release. I am hoping that MM will live up to past expectations and fix these but they will surely turn potential buyers off permenantly.

- the overall cumbersomeness of the game. This partially overlaps with the UI issue but there is more. Things are not very intuitive. Yes, once I figure it out, I know how to do it, but there is still a lot of cumbersomeness. Information that I want is there but not readily accessible. Too many of the things that I think should be options in-game are only modifiable in the data files.
This may sound trivial to most people but I know several people who won't mod the game based on the principle that they shouldn't need to for changing basic options - and they are very "turned off" as potential customers and won't be buying the game over this issue alone.

- the great unknown of what will be fixed after release. MM has a great reputation for continuously improving the game. I give him 100% credit for that. Without getting into an argument over the possibility of bug-free games here, there is a customer expectation of a certain level of performance at the time the game is installed. Frequent, hard crashes are unacceptable. Many of the issues are not fatal (software) flaws; many are just the cumbersomeness issues, so how many of these will be fixed?


I really want this game to be good, but it's just not there yet. Will I buy it? I am still not sure. I know it's too late, but I'll say this anyway: I am willing to wait as long as it takes for the release if the time is being spent to improve the game.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Well, there was quite a learning curve going from SEIV to this demo, but I'm over the curve and LOVING this game.

The demo is broken. Resources disappear, Neutral AI is basically disabled, etc. But have you looked at all the new treaty options? The fleet options? I even like the UI myself, now that I figured out how to customize it.

I wish this was called an alpha demo myself, but I have no doubt that I'll get the game on release day, and no doubt that it will be fun and playable right out of the box, and no doubt that patches will come regularly too.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Slick,

What options do you think should be in-game settings?

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

A long list, without listing every item, a lot of the things in "settings.txt" would be a great start. Some of the other data files have some items that would be great too. Being able to save them off as a "preferences" file would be better. I'm not talking about the whole file, just the ones that would make sense to be in-game. I guess "make sense" is subjective, though...

A couple of examples would be how "sight" is handled, default number of systems, etc. Those kinds of things.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I guess one of the big questions is how close is the demo to the finished product?

I know MM is only one guy. But if I was the developer I would be all over the forums wanting to know people's reactions, bugs, ideas etc. Not working thru a few dedicated beta testers. That's just me.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Aaron is rather reclusive.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Although I think he has posted here, sometime in the past.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I want to be honest too. I love the game. Despite all of its flaws and problems I absolutlely love it. You know why because I know its just going to get better and better. (See me in one year.)

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I'm kind of with Slick on this one. Yes, I know, I'm agreeing with a guy who uses a Han Solo pic as his avatar. So sue me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

There's something about the SE5 demo that just doesn't grab me the way SE4 did, even the very first time I saw it.

People are saying "give it time, get past the learning curve". But the fact is, there's nothing that makes me want to. Like Slick said, I want badly to like the game, I'm trying hard to like the game, but it's not happening yet...

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Ah I didn't know that thx for the info. Even if he's in a cave at the top of a mountain- as long as he's got an internet connection to keep working on a great game.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

ps the demo's grown on me and SEV has lots of possibilities.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I love the game so far, but that being said I have to agree with slick to some degree. There is something missing that keeps me from the "just one more turn" syndrome. I have been analyzing why I feel this way and I think I've identified a couple of things:

1) It feels tedious. No stacking, clicking and dragging components, multiple menus to get the data you need, etc. etc. At times I just have enough.

2) Compared to SEIV the turns process much more slowly.

I think between being tedious and slow it saps my energy. with SEIV I'll often look at the clock and say "oh crap it's 2:30 AM and I have an 8:00 AM meeting". That has not yet happened with SEV and I can say for sure that it did with the SEIV and SEIII demos.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I have to go with <font color="blue">Slick</font> &amp; <font color="green">Possum</font> here.

While I respect the interestes and opinions of those who are enthusiatic about SEV, it just doesn't "<font color="red">GRAB</font>" me the same way the other version did. Too many things to work at, too many fixes needed, I don't want to have to mod a game to play it, just a lot of different things combine to suck the interest in out of me.

I know this is an unpopular opinion overall, but it's still how I feel.

On an additional note, I have to agree with <font color="purple">Santiago</font> about what Aaron should be doing.

Reclusive or not, if you release a product you need to stay alert and on top of your customers points of view and concerns, rather than just sticking to a few chosen opinions. This forum is a golden opportunity to do just that, and would be a treasure trove for improving what wrong with the game..

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Aaron does read all of the emails you send in...

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Although you've been biased against SE:V from the onset - long before the demo became available. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Not that I care. If you like a game, you like it. If you don't then you don't - it doesn't matter much to debate about it. But if it's just a few issues you're having that's preventing you from having fun, share them and pass them on. It's likely you're not the only one feeling this way and lots of things can change right?

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

What's a valid email address?

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

se5 at malfador dot com.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Played the Demo for awhile, then gave up. Game feels more like work. Like was said, just didn't grab me. Its a combination of things .. a UI that is very non-intuitive, always feel like I'm in the wrong place trying to do the wrong thing. But more than that. Maybe the fact that its mainly just SE IV's dataset, when I had long since moved on to playing mods in that game. Maybe its the bugs, all the things that just don't seem to work. Maybe its the 100 turn limit, and the thought that I'll be stopped from playing if the game ever does get interesting.

I'm long since sick of companies that release a game on a certain date to make the Christmas season. And a buggy demo at this point makes me think that's what's happening here. Usually I'd expect the last month of a game to be spent on play-balancing, most bugs should be long gone by then. But in this game, that seems to get little attention ... its just SEIV again. The feel seems to be to do nothing here and let the modders do the work later.

Partly I'm disappointed in the focus of the game. 3D means nothing to me, so when I see all the effort spent on 3D, it makes me think of other things that could have been done.

I'm interested in strategy gameplay. I'm interested in a strong AI. How much could have been done here if the focus wasn't on 3D? Too much I see SEIV, but with 3d. And with tools and spaces for modders maybe to improve, but not those improvements used in the demo.

Oh well ... I might come back after some patches and after the modders go to work. But for now, its pretty much a sure thing I ain't buying this one on release.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

This is actually one of the worst times to release a game. Christmas season is Nov/Dec. Sept./Oct. is bad because it is just at the start of school, so back to school shopping has generally tapped people out, and it is too early for most people to be doing Christmas shopping. Instead, they are more likely to buy nothing and save money for Christmas shopping in Nov./Dec.

Honestly, I don't think I'd buy this game on release either. Didn't buy SE4 for about 8 months, and that paid off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I havent been able to form a valid opinion on the gameplay yet because I its just too unstable for me. Way too many crash outs to try and make a real investment in learning it.

But from the little I've been able to play, I do agree that something appears to be missing. I know its not just me being tired of the genre because I've been away from SE4 for a while and I wanted to get back into it. I came here to see what was up and I saw that the SE5 demo had just hit. So there was definately an interest factor there for me.

As other have said, it does sort of seem like work. The ship construction which should be one of the coolest features seems cumbersome and not intuitive (engines can go anywhere, guns on the back can shoot to the front etc). It doesnt help that the game repeatedly crashes out during both ship construction and the combat simulator.

I'm definately going to approach the final release with caution. Like others, I really WANT to like the game, but so far I havent been wow'ed in any way. I'm hoping for a much better AI than SE4, but I'm being encouraged by what I've been reading about it. SE4's AI never gave a feeling of immersiveness. It agreed to treaties/request and never bothered to follow through. There was no feeling of dealing with other empires (which both MOO2 and the Civ series have managed). I dont expect a strategic and tactical genious from the AI, but something so that you can at least feel like its another actual faction. So far, it appears that SE5 has no done a lot to change that issue.

On the positive side, the change in the combat engine appears welcome, but again I have to reserve final judgement due to crashing issues. In theory, I like how you have to explore the star systems too. How it actually works out remains to be seen.

Still, I'm tentatively looking forward to the release. I'll keep an eye on what others feel about it and I'll see what the patch/upgrade situation looks like. I'm hoping that I can get even a fraction of the enjoyment I got out of SE3 and SE4 (both WELL in excess of the investment).

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I stopped posting here about a week or two ago when people with a negative view were more or less getting hounded off the forums. Interesting to come back to this as one of the latest threads with a majority of the posters unlikely to buy the game at release.

I want SEV to succeed as much as the next guy but I'm not emotionally invested in MM or Aaron Hall. I give him money he gives me a game, much the same as a supermarket and food. If he was doing it for free then fair enough but he's doing it for money (and no, I don't work for free either but I don't expect blind faith from my clients either. It would be nice though...) and specifically he's doing it for Strategy First's money and we'll be paying them. By all accounts from the beta testers he's ignored valid concerns over the UI and makes next to no effort to engage his users. This isn't charity so could the next guy who tells me MM is a one man band and we should cut him some slack please explain why?

In fact if you want a real conspiracy theory SEV can be buried in mediocrity while SF has their East European coders knock out SE6 the real time strategy game a la Warcraft 3. Jagged Alliance 3D anyone?

I really want to buy SEV and enjoy it and I'll probably STILL buy the game on release if it hits Steam. The real question is whether I'll still be playing it in five years time.

And to Marc420, my brother in disdain for 3D froo froo crap, Amen!

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

frightlever said:
I stopped posting here about a week or two ago when people with a negative view were more or less getting hounded off the forums.

Did I miss some posts somewhere? I never saw anyone "hounded off the forums." Sure, there were a few people reading way too much into things, but not much more than that. It's a discussion forum, so of course people will post some contrary opinions to whatever else gets posted. That is hardly hounding anyone off the forums.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Interesting....

Yes, I expressed my personal opinions several times BEFORE the release of the SEV Demo. I said that the direction SEV seemed to be going didn't appeal to me, or what it's new focus was going to be.

But, having a negative point of view about something you're not fond of when others are is known as biased.

When the SEV Demo was released I downloaded it and gave it a fair try, rather than ingore it, berate it, or comment on it out of ignorance. I am willing to address issues with an open mind because I am, admittedly, right and wrong about things in equal measure.

I tried it, and found it not to be to my liking, to have numerous issues, to be exactly what I was concerned it would be. Like many others I expressed those thought and opinions.

But, having a negative point of view about something you're not fond of when others are is known as biased.

I listened to other points of view and suggestions, tried them out, and still ended up with the same opinion. In fact, I've tried the Demo now several dozen times. I've tried new directions, offered suggestions, the works. It does not grab my attention the way SEIV did, I'm not fond of it, and I thought to express those thoughts here in the forum provided for them.

But, having a negative point of view about something you're not fond of when others are is known as biased.

The issues I have with it have also been expressed by others as well. I added my voice to theirs, not with biased intent to simply tear it down, but in hopes that something somewhere might be done to improve what I feel are flaws within it. It's not a matter of "just a few issues you're having that's preventing you from having fun", it's a total combination of things as a whole that I'm not thrilled with.

But, having a negative point of view about something you're not fond of when others are is known as biased.

No, I don't like where it went, how much effort goes into playing it now, dealing with the various flaws and bugs, needing to adapt to this or mod that to get what seems like it should've already been there. But, I've also given it several fair efforts to change my point of view, and it has still failed to do so.

I guess if not liking it after that is biased, then yes - I'm biased.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Interesting perspective. I seem to recall feeling pretty much the same way, though I was basically very politely told I was full of it and "biased".

Glad to see I'm not the only one who saw that around here....

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

To clarify, the "only a few things" comment was directed at players who have only a couple of items standing between them and being happy about the game. Not everyone who's had problems with the SE:V demo.

BK, I never saw anyone call you full of it. I merely said you went in biased because you made a point of posting a lot that you weren't going to abandon SE:IV for SE:V just because it was new. And it was mostly a jest as I added a "razz'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I hope no one thought I was hounding them. My goal was for players who were having issues to forward them to MM etc. Hence most of reply posts was directed players to report bugs/annoyances... so nah. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

My goodness, another conspiracy pops up. Can you still not see that no-one has intended to drive anyone away?
Apologies and clarifications were forthcoming the last time you said this, and now given that you now say you feel we told you that you were full of it, I dread to think how you read the most innocuous posts :/

In all frank honesty, other people's concerns about a game don't get me bothered - there's plenty of other people I would end up playing with, so you don't see me jumping to defend any point here or there unless I know it's incorrect and no-one else has explained it. I *know* I'm going to enjoy the game, so I'm happy to sit quietly and leave others to their opinions.
I would agree with Kwok's statement though, historically you've been fairly anti-SE5 so yes you do come across as biased - not that it's necessarily a *bad* thing mind you - you can't ever get a balanced opinion on a subject, but again as Kwok said - there's nothing to debate really - If you like it, great. If you don't - share the reasons and move on (er, back) to other games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only reason I ever hung out with the community is because they've always been so level-headed and welcoming. Hell, I take 2 or 3 year breaks between posts sometimes and yet the community doesn't change. There is no hounding out of the forums for negative opinions, but equally there's no need to repost the same things over and over. Directions to adress things straight to MM is purely because Aaron is very distant from the community as a whole (imo), but when people send things to him he does read them, given these facts now perhaps you can see that the perceived hounding you had was merely misinterpreting helpful advice?

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

In the interest of clarity, let me state that it seemed to me that you were adressing me personally, since the post was directed to me. And I didn't realize or catch that you might be "razzing" me. Being refered to as biased because I had my doubts and expressed them also tends to raise my hackles a bit. I frequently say what I think or feel, but I always give things a fair chance to prove me wrong.

As to being "full of it", no - no one has directly used those words, but I have been told "your wrong,that's not what's happening here" or "i don't see that around here" or "that doesn't happen around here". Basically - I'm full of it if I say it seems like negative viewpoints are being hounded. And yet, obviously it's NOT strictly my point of view. I've quoted others with the same perspective for a reason. I'm not trying to pick a fight or be difficult. I am trying to point out something evident not only to me, but several other people here as well. evident enough that some have even stated they quit coming here for a while because of that.

I have said many times I'm not abandoning SEIV for SEV, that's true. I never once said I wouldn't give SEV it's fair shake, only that I wasn't in favor of the changes that were being incorporated into it. When the Demom was released I downloaded it, tried it, expressed my problems with it, acted on the suggested responses, and still didn't feel happy with it. I continued to try to see beyond the issues that bug me, and still nothing changed. And, once again, I expressed what and why I wasn't happy with it. My not being rabidly in favor of the game has drawn a fair bit of flack.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

We all come here for the same reason. Sometimes it's to 'agree to disagree' and how we do that reflects on the people who post. Nobody comes here to insult anyone or berate them. We all have our beleifs and opinions, but we need to consider others when we post. Enough said. Feel free to express yourself and please enjoy those freedoms and respect your fellow players/board posters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

OK, all together now.....

I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow-white turtle doves

Chorus:
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
And keep it company
(That's the song I hear)
I'd like to see the world for once
(Let the world sing today)
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills
For peace throughout the land
That's the song I hear
(That's the song I hear)
Let the world sing today
(Let the whole wide world keep singing)
A song of peace that echoes on
And never goes away

(Repeat 1st stanza and Chorus)

Put your hand in my hand
Let's begin today
Put your hand in my hand
Help me find a way

(Repeat Chorus til fade) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

*snip*

Funny, I feel exactly the opposite. I'm feeling hounded off the forums because a handful of people hijack threads with constant whining about minor issues.

I'm enjoying the demo and made to feel like I should not be because of minor issues.

In all the threads I've read, I've seen the beta testers here answering questions with more patience than I would have for the constant whiners. I've seen a number of posts that read more like a list of demands than questions and instead of ignoring them, the beta testers patiently answer questions and acknowlege issues.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I Loved that song, I sang it in either 5th or 6th grade, then Coke got it in their TV ads and the purity of it's message was forever tarnished with a 'Ka-ching' Cash register sound in my mind. Peace and Harmony should not equal Rotten teeth and Obese teen-agers.
Sorry I went O.T. but did I mention that when I was a kid that I just loved that song.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

On a scale from 1 to 10, i would rate it with 6.5. I definitly like SEIV better. I was expecting more, especially from

- ground combat (woah, this is bad)
- planet development (look GalCiv 2)

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

"...answering questions with more patience than I would have for the constant whiners..."

"...posts that read more like a list of demands than questions..."


What a perfect illustration of what I'd been trying to say...

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Personnally I'd rate at 6-some also, don't care much for Cd combat but agrees on planet dev. But, bleh, GC2 planet development su.. well is not to my taste http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif . If ever we could have a game with a good planet dev system such as MoO2's or Civ-like ...

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Sry, cant follow you here. MoO2 had no system at all...you were just constructing buildings, but a planet itself had absolutly no influence on its productivity, apart from fertility and population.

Thats why i like GalCiv 2`s system. You can actually see a MAP of the planet, and symbols indicate certain ressources. It reminds of Ascendancy, which`s system i like a lot as well.
But ground combat...oh well. I thought SEIV GC was horrible. Then i thought GalCiv2s GC was EVEN MORE horrible. Than i played SEV and thought its the worst GC to be developed, ever. Its like Imperium Galactica, which is already years old, but EVEN older.


To sum it up, im rather dissapointed by SEV. It feels like a real let down, one in a long series, raging from MoO3 to GalCiv, to Sword of the Stars, now to SEV. I was expecting a glorious game, made by a player, for players. I think ~ 3 more months development time would be good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

To be honest though, SEV is already the best of the few games i named.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I think people are getting defensive on wether SEV is equal to SEIV or not, and I've seen some things said on this forum that disapointed me.

Just remember, a game is not worth getting pissed off at your friends over.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Ragnarok,

Out of curiosity, what was your take on Sword of the Stars? I gather that you dont/didnt care for it. I have it, but havent really been able to get 'into' it. Its not really a '4x' game IMO, its more like an RTS with a turn-based econ side.

What about it was disappointing for you?

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I've got to agree about the planet development/economic model. Really, virtually every game I've played has had a disappointing economic model. SE5's is a step up from SE4, however, as the inclusion of maintenance costs for structures and populations forces players to put a little more thought into expansion beyond "Colonize EVERYTHING!!!!1111"

I'd really like to have a 4X game with a more realistic, complex economy similar to Supreme Ruler 2010's: raw material concentrations on the planet maps, industry-wide efficiency levels that can be improved, finished goods production that consumes raw materials, international trade on a market, inflation, loans/debt, etc.... I find all this much more engrossing than the simple "Trade = bonus resource production" model of the SE series.

Gee, the Amon'Krie are flooding the market with dilithium crystals and undercutting my profits. Should I improve my production methods to reduce my own costs, or just invade and occupy their dilithium-producing planets, and then ramp up my markup rate to recoupe the costs of the war?

But then again I'm an Economics major, so that probably impacts my suspension of disbelief WRT game economies.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

www.knightsoft.ca - Starknight. Raw materials to processed materials to finished goods. Other than that, it's pretty simple. It's also fun.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Constructing an already designed ship takes too many mouse clicks:

• Select planet hex
• Select planet (from choice of planet, sattelite, mine, ships in orbit)
• Select Construct Object
• Select category 'ships'
• Scroll down list
• Double click ship
• close menu

The build queue does not let you see the solar system and planet you are working with.

As an aside, what do you think about an economy based on one credit = one man-hour of work?

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

The game is bad. Combat is very bad, research is using an old, outdated system as well. The entire colony/development-system is horrible, actually the worst i have seen. One system is resembled by a single planet, which you develope by TWO sliders ? huh ?!

Ship construction is boring. Diplomacy is non-existant. Ground combat is hilarious, no depth or tactic or anything like that involved. The only thing that is good is that those 4 races are using unique expansion/propulsion systems, but thats about it. Should i compare SotS to SEV, i would say SotS is an even bigger let-down than SEV :p And that already means something.

I have to admit that a good mod, like Star Wars Mod or Adamant Mod or Devnull Mod could change my opinion about SEV.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Now i know i dont post often so doubt many care of my opinion :p

But i start played Se3 empires prolly 6,7 years ago.. Been playing Se4 pretty much non stop for months here latly.


I was excited about the demo and well it was a bit of a let down.

I cringe to think how much time was wasted on horrid 3d graphics.. Ground Combat teh i thought that was lame when i was 13, 8years ago in imperium galactica 2..

And omg how did ship design manage to make it this far in its current shape that'll keep me from playing tell its fixed in some way even i have better things to do than that process? Y cant i double click on a planet to bring up the construction que? Scrolling and stuff seems a bit jerky. I also just dislike the 3d enviroment the zooming in and out.

Tho its not all bad.. I like the new supply and ordance system,the larger tech line, the real time combat could have potential really gotta test it againist Ai's in big battles to know if they can handle it or not.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

An hour of work by the guy who mows my lawn and an hour of work by a cardiovascular surgeon do not have the same market value (especially to the guy needing bypass surgery).

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I think it was a mistake for these sorts of games to move away from the more abstract "Stellar Conquest"-based system used in the original MOO, the original (8 bit) Reach For the Stars, etc... Most of the tedious late-game micromanagement of big empires stems from having to mess with all the individual buildings on planets/cities - and is worse in the Civ games (and to a lesser extent MOO2)where you've got to micromanage what the individual population units are doing, clean pollution, etc... Much more streamlined to have production calculated as (population + factories) * (some constant for planet "richness"), with advancing technology just raising the allowed ratio of factories to population. I'd rather spend my time micromanaging ship/unit design &amp; tactical combat.

On the other hand, I do like the separation of resources from production, with resources being consumed proportional to production. This would eliminate the "richness" factor in the above calculation, which would instead factor into resource production (which would be relatively independent of population). The idea would be an economy of relatively few high population industrial worlds being fed by a larger number of low population mining colonies, the former probably being of high habitability and the latter mostly domed. Then some elegant rules to cover resource convoys to be defended from pirates &amp; enemy player commerce raiders to create a military purpose for small ships...

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Did any game ever really have a better planet development system and economy model than MoO3? Looking past the bugs, I can't really remember any that even came close. All other games have such simple systems, MoO3's is *complex* and rather realistic.

IMO an ingenius macromanagement system( development plans, budgets, etc.) that even allows for very much micromanagement if you'd rather do things yourself.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I can't honestly address MOO3, because I never got far enough into my first &amp; only game of it to get even a little bit up the learning curve. I was a regular on the on the forum during its development, and was very enthusiastic about the game concepts ("The Elephant") described there by Alan Emrich. However, my enthusiasm receded as they first started throwing features overboard, and then threw Alan overboard, and a couple of high profile volonteer devs/ uber-betas / whatever-you-want-to-call-em left in a huff or were pushed. Anyway, I ended up buying the game but just didn't get drawn into it as I usually do with 4Xers.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Yeah, that was pretty much the best system. Each planet had several regions, all with different fertility and mineral richness, plus regional AND planet-based extras. Plus DPAs which were influenced by the amount of people working each region. VERY good. It wasnt even as bugged as the rest of the game.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

Or the guy needing a lawn mowed.

And here I wonder if the original reason is simply that there are a lot of lawns to mow, so a fella could make a living at it. But bypass surgery is a skill needed only rarely, thus we make up for it by paying him a full wage for a few hours' work.

Then of course greed set in.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

OK, you've divided the game into two separate issues. I’ve played Reach for the Stars and MOO3. MOO3’s economics are a game within the game and could stand on its own. RFTS is a basically simple game with all the economics factored in. Has anyone ever played any game that had economic micromanagement and space combat in it that was any fun to play? If you want economics the get a game based on that and if you want planetary development then go get something like SimCity. You cannot get all those factors into ONE game. Somewhere, if you want combat and ship building you have to regulate the economics and planetary building. Do you really want a game that will take you hours to do one turn. You just can’t have it all!

In MOO3 when you get large the economics become unmanageable, as at that point you want the computer to take over the many planets you now have. The AI is flexible but still has problems taking over where you leave off. What you are all asking for is four separate games in one that run well. When you find one, please let me know.

Re: SE:V, I\'ll be honest
 

I want at least to be able to actually manage my economy. In Moo3, i was managing my planets almost ALL the time. It wasnt that hard. Of course its a matter of taste.
Click on a region, see its mineral value, and build mining or industry DEAs. Or research. Or gouverment. Or military.

In SEV, i have exactly 5 things to value, mineral %, organic %, radioactive %, pop, size. THats it. Again, should i grade those 2 eco models on a scale from 1 to 10, i would give MoO 3 a 7-8, and SEV probably a 4-3.

One thing you are missing in your comparion to Reach for the Stars is that that game was about macromanagment. You usually had fleets of douzens, maybe hundreds of ships, which you just send bulk against hostile fleets.
Research was very simple as well, same goes for colonization. There was only planet size and atmosphere/temperature to keep in mind, of thise the last two were indicated by a colorcode (yellow, blue, green..)

The entire game was more about big view. SEV offers a lot of micromanagment though, because of that i want to micromanage my economy as well.

btw Are there any news of Aaron liste to the suggestions, like double-click-opens-the-planet-window, or rightclick opens-component-details, another rightclick-close-component-details ?