SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I just realized are there missing ship types in SEV? Where are the Escort and Heavy Cruiser classes? Is there also a battle cruiser class?

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

SE5 calls for fewer ship hulls, but more unit hulls (small/medium/large versions o each). With the new ability to have multiple levels of ship hulls, there is not as much need for so many explicit hulls.

See this article for a complete listing of specified hulls.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

So if I understand you correctly it was desided that the escort, Heavy Cruiser, Battle Cruiser, and Baseship were no longer needed and removed. I cannot disagree more with that decision. I don't care so much about unit hulls verses ship hulls. I'd rather have more then less for ship hull graphics. I'd at least like to have as many as were available in SEIV or the option to change to alternate ship graphics in game.

So now you need to mod these in too. I think ship hull levels should have a research max to seperate hull sizes. I'd like to see more ship graphics then less other wise what's the point in having even 9 ship hulls avaible when all you have to do is research the hull for the frigate.

It's stuff like this that makes me think twice about investing in this game. I'm begining to understand why people are saying features have been taken out. Did any of the beta testers have a problem with this? At this point I'm thinking I'll hold off on getting this game. I'm just more and more disappointed with the dirrection this has taken. Back to SEIV.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Only Escort and Battle Cruiser were removed. There was never any Heavy Cruiser in standard SE:IV.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I thought the same thing until I played the demo. Have you played the demo? One of the things you can now research is hull upgrades within a class. So your destroyer hull size can almost double in tonnage if you choose to continue researching it, or you can invest your research points in Light Cruisers instead.

There is actually a lot more flexability in this new system. Your cruisers are a lot more like Battle Cruisers at the top of the research chain.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Yeah but the problem with this if only minor, is as an opponent, recoginizing ship sizes. I mean, via sight alone, you should be able to tell, if that is a light cruiser, or battleship. Now you just have light cruisers, and mega light cruisers, and you cant really tell the difference, unless you look real hard...

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

The stock sizes don't overlap to that extent where a light cruiser will have the same tonnage as a low-level battleship; plus clicking on a ship always tells you what type of hull it is. More importanly though is that all the different sizes are useless because stock SE:V is even worse than SE:IV when it comes to small vs large ship balance. A player won't even bother to research smaller hulls once that get the next level up - it's an absolute waste of research points.

Fortunately I have a ready-to-go mod that addresses this and many other balance issues with stock. In my balance mod, I drop each hull tech to 3 levels, with level 2 providing the next hull level up. Now it is still worthwhile to research that last level because a) It usually gives something like access to a mount or b) there's small-big ship balance so it's actually useful to keep smaller ships around.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Where's the readme for this balance mod?

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Everyone should play KwokStock.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

The main ship hulls in the Balance Mod. Each one has 3 levels. The "max move" figure is just at low tech with no bonuses applied. It's essentially like SE3's system. The mount thresholds are at 400, 750, 1500 for L, H, M.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Start End Max Max # Def Off
Hull Size Size EPM Move Engines Crew Mod. Mod. Maint
Frigate 250 300 2 12 5 100 30 0 ---
Destroyer 350 400 3 11 7 150 20 0 ---
Light Cruiser 450 500 4 11 9 200 10 0 ---
Cruiser 600 750 5 10 10 300 0 0 ---
Battleship 800 1000 7 10 14 450 -10 0 ---
Dreadnought 1000 1250 10 8 16 600 -20 0 ---
Baseship 1500 1800 15 6 18 750 -30 0 ---
</pre><hr />

Thanks for the plug SJ! But on a more serious note, many of the beta testers made contributions in the development of the balance mod - so it's just not made for my "tastes".

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

If many of the beta's helped, the question is why isn't the balance in the game itself?

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

It was a timing issue. But hope is not yet lost for the future. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

*tries to think of a SE4 feature that was taken out*

Alternate ship hull settings were made even more flexible, with 3 options instead of just 2. Like in SE4, baseships still call for a baseship hull image, though the stock sets lack it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Since the original model files are included with the game, it will be easier for people to make modified versions for a SE5 neostandard than it was in SE4.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I LIKE the new way of doing ship sizes. There is less waste. Your old ships can be upgraded to something useful. Besides the obvious increase in tonnage, destroyers can eventually use Large mounts, and cruisers eventually use Heavy mounts. Keep in mind the extra engines allowed for smaller ships. I think they maneuver better, too (but I might be imagining that). Plus, a little research to get more tonnage-efficient crew quarters and life support makes even more tonnage available for weapons, etc. Those old destroyers lying around can become a fearsome (and hard-to-hit) force. If nothing else, they make better support ships than they did in SEIV.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

They do maneuver better; look in VehicleSizes.txt to see turn and acceleration rates for the various ship sizes.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I love the new way of handling/researching ship hulls! This is very similar to how I've done ship hull research in DN4. SEV just takes it a step further with being able to upgrade and such.

Love it!

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

But what about upgrading? I mean do you really believe you can take a 100 ton anything, and upgrade it to a 125 ton anything? I know reality in a space game and all...I guess one could look at it in terms of miniaturization, better materials, and such.

I thought Multiplex Tracking wasnt included, but I found a reference in the Main Strings data file. Is this just dead code from SEIV?

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Multiplex tracking means nothing in a real time combat system where you can change targets instantly...

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I was going to say Kwok's "balance was somewhat out of whack but it's probably just typos http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Destroyer start size 400 end size 3 max engines 150? Bet that ship is a speed demon for its 7 move. Faster it goes -smaller it gets. With only 20 crew.

baseship also, Start size 1800 end size 15 and with -30 crew lol Hope that's not in your mod

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I think you are reading the table strangely. The -30 is def modifier, no sizes go down as tech goes up.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

@ Fyron- poor attempt at humor on my part http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

The destroyer and baseship are slightly shifted to the left on the table I see. I assumed everyone seen it that way.

Ie: Frigate (space space) 250 300 etc
Destroyer350 400 3 etc
Baseship 1500 1800 15 etc

No big deal- just wondering if anyone else seen it messed up?

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

It displays perfectly aligned for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

The table is aligned properly in both FF and IE6 for me.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

The ship sizes in the balance mod look more reasonable than the ones in stock. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The table looks aligned with Firefox on my computer at home, but it did not look aligned earlier today when I was using a computer at the office running IE.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

International space station as example in reality.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

It isn't aligned for me.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Of course you can take a 100 ton something and upgrade it to a 125 ton something - just tack more parts on! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Wasn't aligned for me, but understood issue (after a second look), hehehe

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

True, but I was think more along the lines of the base hull being able to provide space for components. I'm sure I will just have to choose to disbelieve...

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Also true, but would you do the same thing with a speedboat, race car, or fighter jet? Would it still be aerodynamicly sound, safe, etc?

The space station isnt making combat manuvers...so its tolerances are alot less. Something that might will require more than likely a new hull, than something bolted on it...

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Possibly more to the point, the Italian Conte di Cavour class battleships. They were built during WWI, and radically rebuilt during the late 1930's. Displacement increased roughly 25%. Only the hull and the side armor plates were reused. The hull itself was altered with the installation of a new bow, which increased the overall length by 10.30 meters. Inside the hull, a new system of defense against torpedo attacks was installed that required the complete removal of all internal structures.
The original engineering plant was replaced, reducing the number of propellers from 4 to 2. The primary and secondary armaments were completely replaced.

Historically this was pretty extreme - most navies just built new ships. However, it shows what can be done.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

That would IMO be more of a retrofit than a ship-size upgrade. As it is, in SEIV (haven't had the chance to try the SEV demo yet, and don't know if I will anytime soon), you can refit a ship to any other design of the same size, provided the new design adds no colony modules or spaceyards. Retrofitting a Battlecruiser-size ship from a cargo transport to a heavy-hitting warship is also rather extreme.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Eh?

You still have to do the retrofit in order to gain the benefits of the technology upgrade to ship size.

It isn't automagic upgrades, at least in stock.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

To add to Suicide Junkie's comment, retrofit is the mechanism by which one takes advantage of a hull size increase in SEV. If you do an "upgrade" on an existing design, and new levels of hull technology have increased the size of that hull type since the original was designed, you now have extra space to fill up with more systems. You can then retrofit the existing ships of the first class to the second class. In SEV terms, that's basically what the Italians did with the Conte di Cavour's - upgraded the design to a larger hull, upgraded or replaced the engines &amp; weapons, then retrofitted their existing ships to the new design.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Yeah, it's messed up exactly the same way for me, so I also did one of those "what the heck?" things and had a good laugh at it.

Re: Extreme Makeovers
 

See my subject title. I wonder if that's a popular show with the Xiati. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Kana said:
Also true, but would you do the same thing with a speedboat, race car, or fighter jet? Would it still be aerodynamicly sound, safe, etc?

You can't retrofit units, so those examples aren't really relevant. Spaceships are not aerodynamic; all you would need to do is weld on a new section. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

They aren't aerodynamic, but depending on your propulsion system you might have to make sure the center of mass doesn't change.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Not a big deal, just distribute where you expand the hull properly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Yeah but a spaceship, isnt some big lump of metal...I'm sure there are many things that make it 'space worthy'. Strapping hunks of other metal on to the hull, doesnt seem like a proper way to travel the stars, or to go into combat.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Which is why you have to spend all that time designing your ship http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

I think (he can correct me if I'm wrong) Thorfrog is concerned about graphic representations of different hull classes. A myriad of hull upgrade possibilities is nice, but some people like the different appearance of different types of hulls. I'm one of those people.

It's less fun if you have fewer visual representations of hull types. I personally would rather have cruisers represented by one icon, battlecruisers by a second and battleships represented by a third than have several classes of cruiser hulls represented by a single icon. Lots of hull upgrades for cruisers (all using the same ship icon), and then moving to a battleship icon with lots of upgrades but no change in icon appearance, is just not my personal cup of tea.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Well, variety is already gone down the tubes if you play stock SE-anything.
Only the biggest hull is ever really worth using in stock games.

Given a mod, you can have all the different hull sizes you can make niches for.
GGmod is pretty good at that, thanks to the flat-maintenance, size-squared build cost.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Ah yes...nothing like losing your Blasto Cannon...or luxury
porta-john...when making a high-g manuever because it
was hastily bolted on instead of integrated into the design.
I kind of like this idea actually. Hmm...how to mod
shoddy workmanship into SE5....

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Be nice if you could transfer them, and they had their own experience too. Basically nested fleets.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Ever played P&amp;N for SE4? There was a Cheap Components mount which reduced component hitpoints, reduced weapon damage, and increased supply usage, among other things http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

That's my point. Why should I pay for a 3D update when you are getting less than what is in SEIV. For a 5th version I am expecting alot more than what is currently presented. And saying that the extra ship graphics were not neccessary and that's why they were dropped is not a good answer.

I can't stand the fact that many features were dropped.(sub fleets, ship graphic types, palaces, roaming monsters,etc) Say what you want about Galactic Civ 2 but atleast they are listening to their fans and adding features that are requested. Mods are only going to cover so much. Why should I have to wait for mods any way. There just seems to be many items that could have been addressed earlier on. Did this ever come up with the beta testers? (cricket, cricket, cricket)

I've played Space Empires for many years and I have to say I'm not excited about what is currently presented. I see alot of promiss but not enough follow thru. I'm not very happy with the demo also. So at this point I'm holding off purchasing this and sticking with just modding SEIV.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

The betas have focussed on the things that CANNOT be modded in.
In practice, Aaron is only one guy, so we push him to do what only he can, and we do the rest with mods.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Well, I see that now in the victory conditions distroy all homeworlds is an option. Big Plus. So Palace is not needed. I think there were some good improvements so far to SEV but I think there are items that have been promissed since SEIII that still haven't made it. I just expect by this stage to have more. I still am dissapointed with the lack of hull graphics.

Re: SEV: Are there missing ship types?
 

Sub-fleets are in BTW. They're called Task Forces.