Example unit graphics from our mod
 

I just wanted to show you lads an example, that the graphics quality of the units in the TC mod will be very good. This is an Orcish national summon, a half-troll. [Well it won't be added until there will be researchable national summons, because an unit like this from start would be a bit imbalanced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif This unit should require conjuration level 5 to summon for the Orcs.] No attack sprite yet, and no shadows, also the basic image will be changed a bit more later on. Right now I am making the basic sprites without attack animations, and gfx fixing will also happen later on.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8...rollnewrk7.jpg

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

You're setting awfully high standard there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif That might be too big, though.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

You can expect Wizards Of The Coast to get angry once they realize you used their stuff.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Not really, this is a photoshopped miniature. It isn't illegal to take a photo about a miniature and use it up when you want. [or use an existing photo about a figure]There are countless sites on the net with painted miniature figures.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Actually, it can be. INAL, but while most of the cases where people publish photos of miniatures no doubt fall under the aegis of fair use, your use of them might very well be deemed a derivative work and thus a violation of copyright.

That is actually even less clear, as not only are you still dealing with all the copyright issues vis the manufacturer of the miniature, you're now also dealing with the copyright of the photographer. You might even have a case where use of the miniature does not violate copyright but the use of the particular photo does.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Leif, please take a look at the Civ 3. units. Huge number of those used up miniatures as models, and their photos also for civilopedia entries.
I haven't read any restrictions about using up these photos, and I've checked it everywhere, trust me.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Did you consider the possibility that Firaxis paid for the use of the miniatures' likeness?

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Eh no. All of those units were made by players, Firaxis has nothing to do with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Like I said, I checked out these things before I decided to use miniature photos, there isn't any copyright rules for it. If you want, you can check it out also.

If you think a bit, this question isn't making any sense at all.
You can buy miniatures, paint them, and share the photo about them anytime. It is always worked like this.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Oh, you were referring to player-made mods for Civ 3. Well, then the case is the same as for your Dominions 3 mod: they're probably in violation of copyright. Just because they haven't been taken to court for it doesn't mean that they're legal.

Miniatures and photos of miniatures are covered by the same copyright laws as everything else, and copyright law is reknown for being finicky and specialised. As I said earlier, I am not a lawyer, but my lay man's opinion is that your use of the miniatures does not fall under the aegis of fair use and is a copyright violation.

There is a difference between sharing a photo of a miniature you've painted and using the miniature as basis for the graphics in a computer game. The first will almost always be fair use and can not really be said to be a derivate work, while the latter might not be fair use and might very well be considered as a derivative work.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Well Leif if you think so, please show me some official words about it. You won't be able to, because there isn't any.
You are also wrong in a point. If Illwinter would use up the photos about miniatures, that might be wrong. [I'm not sure about it at all] However modders never make any profit from adding miniature photos to various game mods. That is not illegal. Like I said, there are countless examples, that miniature photos were used up in player made mods for various games, and no one had any problems with it ever.
Secondly, many experienced photoshoppers could draw an unit like this about a miniature, it would just take much more time then using up an existing photo. I could do it even. What would you say then? Illegal?
Anyways there is no point to argue over this, since this is certainly not illegal, trust me.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Do I have an authoriative source stating that "using photos of painted miniatures in a game mod is a violation of copyright"? Of course not. For one thing the situation is so narrow that there's not likely to be any case law on it. This is "below the radar" so to speak. Secondly, the statement is too general to make an absolute verdict about it -- such use may or may not be a violation depending on the particulars of the case.

However, there are several good, authoriative sources on copyright law out there. Most deal with the US copyright law and while the specifics might not apply to where you live, copyright law has been pretty much harmonised throughout most of the Western world and the general concepts are mostly the same.

If you want to read up on fair use you can start with the Wikipedia article which has a list of other resources at the bottom.

You might look at this checklist from Purdue universite and see how many points you have favouring that your use is fair and how many points you have opposing that. You might be surprised.

Non-commercial use (or more specifically, non-for-profit use) is not excused from copyright. Whether the use is commercial or not is taken into consideration when judging if it's fair use or not, but that the use is found to be non-commercial is not sufficent to deem it fair use.

And prior to Grand Upright v. Warner in 1991 there were countless examples of musicians using samples from other artists' copyrighted works. As I said above, just because it has not been taken to court (yet) does not mean it is legal.

Yes. It doesn't matter wheter you photograph, Xerox, trace or draw free hand, you're still copying. The question isn't the method you've used to create your own work but wheter a) your use of the orignal copyrighted material is fair use and b) your work can be considered derivative.

I see no reason to trust you on this. My own understanding of copyright law suggests you're wrong, you do not appear as an authority on the subject and much of your argumentation in this discussion is flawed.

However, I agree that there seems no point in continuing to argue over this, as it seems unlikely that either of us will be conviced by the other's arguments.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Leif, that is your subjective opinion. I accept it as an opinion, nothing more. My own understanding is that you are very wrong in this question. This has nothing to do with copyright laws.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Leif is very much right about US/EU copyright law.

DF, sorry to say that, but you don't have a clue.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

In my experience, Wizards of the Coast are quicker than most to whip out the lawyers, but as a general rule, if you are not using the material in a product for profit or under a large open source gnu project with a high profile, don't worry about it.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

I understand the copyright rules, however I don't think so that using up photos or draw unit images about miniature figures would break any copyright rules.
How is it possible that so many people used them up in various mods in various games? Also if you are allowed to share the photos freely on the internet and put it up to your website, even modify the image if you want without any problems, I don't see anything wrong with adding an image to a game mod, what is absolutely free.

Anyways, I just wrote an e-mail to Wizards of the Coast about this. They will give us a proper answer.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Easy, they all break the laws. 10, 000 16 yo finns getting drunk every weekend doesn't make use of alcohol by minors ay more legal, neither does 50, 000 Limewire users make warez any more legal.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Well I really wonder what will be the official answer from Wizards of the Coast. I will copy here everything what will be in the mail. They will reply within 2 days if true.
Maybe I was wrong, since most of you are saying that it's against the copyright laws. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif
If that is true, we will photoshop the in-game units, instead of using miniatures.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Fantastic I just got their reply.

"Questions in regards to legal use need to be directed to our legal department. The only way to reach the legal department is to send in a physical letter to our legal department."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Oh great. Like it will do any good to try and have the conversation with a completely non-tech legal department. That kills most of the arguments you might give.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Haha. They might be non-tech, but they are the legal department for the world's #1 role-playing and hobby gaming franchise. If anyone knows anything about this, you can bet they do. Also, I'd like to point out that Leif's information is not his subjective opinion. He is giving you helpful information, DF. It's not what you wish to hear, but it's helpful.

This reminds me of the story of a man who asked his father how to get rich when he was a young boy. His father told him he needed to discover a way how to "make money". He and his best friend thought for some time and then they became excited when they came up with their very own idea. They went around the neighborhood, collecting the used toothpaste containers from their neighbors. They told their neighbors they were starting a business project, and they'd like some help. Their neighbors were encouraging to the boys, so they assisted them. Eventually, the boys rounded up enough empty toothpaste tubes to begin execution of their money making plan. It turns out their plan was to melt down the nickel tubes and mold them into coins. They had literally discovered a way to "make money". Needless to say, their father had to tell them it was illegal. My point is, whether something is illegal or not is not someone's opinion. Maybe Leif is incorrect, but he is not stating an opinion. He is stating the law.

=$= Big J Money =$=

PS -- He is not incorrect. However, if you feel that what you are doing is not immoral you could probably go ahead and do it, and I seriously doubt you would ever incur legal action. Even if you did, the worst that would happen is Wizards would contact you and threaten a lawsuit if you do not remove your mod from development/distribution. This would be a "better to ask forgiveness than permission" situation. That decision is yours to make. I personally don't reccomend making breaking the law a habit.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

*chuckle* As both a lawyer and a former Wizards of the Coast employee, I can assure you that I highly doubt that their legal department is non-tech.

You might want to think a little more deeply about why it is that a legal department might request a *physical letter* before opening discussions about the legality of a proposed action.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Yep. I will use photoshopped miniatures. If Wizards never cared about it in the past, they won't care now at all.
People are using the miniature images for years now in the various game modifications. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif ...and not in games with a small fanbase, but in games with a huge fanbase, like the civilization series.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Oh noes! WotC owns my avatar now that they bought D&D! I'm ruined!

I won't tell on ya, DFan. *encouragement*

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

You might want to consider what JaydedOne said, but sending them a letter might not be a bad idea. Or reading around on their web page. I know nothing about DnD miniatures, but you might make a case that your use is open game lisance (spelling?) if your mod resembles greyhawk type worlds. One the other hand, this is hardly widespread, so they probably wont care, and as BigJMoney pointed out, worst case they probably will do nothing more than send a few insulting letters demanding you stop publishing your mod.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

here's my 2 cents: you said that you could draw these things up yourself right? wouldn't it give you a greater sense of accomplishment to do that rather than rip off wotc?

and here's a thought: your mod could very well be construed as a way to help boost sales for dom3, whether it is what you intend or not, this sort of scenario results in profits for dom3 with wotc created material and they won't ever see a red cent of it.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Drawing units like these would take many hours. Our vanilla mod will need approx. ~200 + 200 = 400 sprites for the new units. Just calculate how much time would it take to draw those. I would say it would be impossible, since we cannot do this all day long. In fact I cannot do it, since only I am good in photoshop in the team. Anyways like many people have pointed out, I doubt that anyone would care if we would use these images, or if they would, the maximum what could happen is, that they would send an e-mail that we shouldn't use these images. If they do, we replace the images with in-game unit images. They never cared that everyone used up these images in countless game modifications, why should they care about this mod?

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

I was playing around with non miniature images. Take a look at this orc with a sword. [You won't see too much from the sword & his black leather armor, because they are almost black, but not 0,0,0]
It is also not complete, this was just a quick test.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/817/testqc2.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5325/test2wl1.jpg

I think that unit gfx like this could also work perfectly.

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

I can't even understand why someone not connected to Dreamlands can start such a debate :? ... A lawyer maybe ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Go on DomFan, make the graphics please ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

What's to say we're not connected to dreamlands? The omniprescence of cthulhu in incredible. (hmmm... degrees of omnipresence... that might not work...)

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

Besides, its not like there arent netcops around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Example unit graphics from our mod
 

I was playing around more with new style unit images.
2 test versions. Orc with a sword, and orc with a spear.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/8631/screenieby6.jpg

They are not complete [especially the orc with the spear], but you can have a general idea that how will they look like. Anyways unit gfx like this maybe won't be added to the final mod at all, but anything can happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif