OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Okay, is it just me or is this insane?


ILLEGAL immigrants, using our LEGAL system, file a lawsuit to punish a company for not handling their ILLEGAL employment better.....!?!?!?

Illegal immigrants sue Wendy's

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Just because they are illegal immigrants, does not mean they have no rights.

Besides, the article states that the company deducted money from the employees paycheck for a programm that he was not part of.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

The article said the immigrants thought to work legally. Why else did they pay 25$ per month?
I don't know the legal proceedings in the US but I guess they need to sue Wendys because the law firm, which made the mistake, worked on the behalf of Wendys. If Wendys lose the case they get the money from the law firm.
Thats the way it would work in Germany with Client, Contractor and Subcontractor. It represent who has a contract with whom and can pursue a claim from a contract.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Read article, it appears wendyis but the caFe that had already started the program the lawfirm drooped the ball btu know new, Wenys is being sued in lagre part because probalbe has a far larger networth the the law firm, the did not follow thru on its end.
that said, terms do to which some laws in this country work, illegals actually have more legal options to sue over employment issues then do citizens.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

If I understand this correctly, it would seem that if the immigrants are going to sue, they really have no choice but to sue Wendy's. Wendy's would then need to sue the law firm for some sort of legal malpractice to attempt to recoup their losses.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

What a large pile of excrement.

I say let them sue. When they arrive at the courthouse, round 'em up and ship 'em out - after exacting fees for this service of course.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

" Wendys'...had missed a deadline for joining a federal program that would have helped them attain legal status."

These are people who have been in the country for, at least in one case, 14 years

see the last line in the article: "...said Olivares, who has been in the country 14 years"

They've been slinging hash, and cooking french fries, and broiling hamburgers for $5.25 an hour so Americans can have their dollar cheesburgers and their quarter pounders with cheese. They've been doing this illegally, risking deportation to their home countries and separation from their families, or they've been sending every spare cent they have back to their families in their home country. They live in fear of the law, and at the mercy of clearly unscrupulous corporations who care only about the profit margin (after all, that's capitalism, folks)...these people do jobs, we are told, that no typical American citizen would stoop to doing...our (American) standard of living is based largely upon the efforts of these people, tens of millions of them, who live every day serving our fat @sses hamburgers and could be deported at any moment. And they've more than likely gone through hell to get here for the privilege of doing so.

They "deserve" to be "American" as much as anyone for all that they have gone through and put up with.

Heck, they deserve it more than most of "us" in fact.

What kind of people do we want to carry on the "American Dream"? We want someone who is going to swim across the Rio Grande in the dead of night, leaving behind their family in order to work hard, work long, and work for a pittance so that they canhelp themselves and their loved one's get a chance to get ahead.

Everyone who started in "America" was given most of what they have. These people earn every damn cent of what they get.

I shouldn't drink and post. But it had to be said.

Edit add 1: I put things in quotes to emphasize the "american-centric" aspect of this post.

Edit add 2: see my sig as a postscript.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

There's a legal way to attain any dream or goal. There are also illegal ways. It's a matter of choice, hard work, patience, respect and determination to do things legally or illegally. Illegal acts must be punished, or the illegal nature of the act must be changed by law - and I'm not touching that one because I don't support it.

Do the crime, do the time...

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I think that if someone is an illegal immigrant, they should immediately and without recourse be shipped back where they came from (unless they want to try to claim asylum). If you don't make illegal immigration an unattractive option, it will continue and grow larger all the time. Deport 'em (after giving them the money that was taken from them illegally).

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I think we just need to complete the process and annex Mexico. We already have half of the old territory, might as well integrate the rest. Maybe the people could finally get decent lives going without the horribly corrupt governtments they have had for decades/centuries...

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Hmm. Perhaps if a) companies didn't make it so easy for illegal immigrants to be employed and b) the general public were willing to pay a few more dollars for something, you might have less of a problem.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

A nation is defined by it's borders, language, and culture. Per: Michael Savage: www.michaelsavage.com

I agree with slick and Renegade thirteen. Illegal imigration is like cutting in line. Rarely is that tolerated. How does someone cuttting in line make you feel?

Illegal immigration is a slap in the face to legal immigrants and an affront to the citizens of the nation.

Some claim the benefits of these illegal immigrants but never consider the heavy costs that far outweigh any perceived benifits.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I am divided on this whole illegal/legal topic (not in the forum but in general).

In this case the workers were trying to follow the rules set forth but due to either error or mismanagement the paperwork was not filed and they were willing to pay for this assistance. Its not their fault but under the law they get punished for it. I feel they deserve to get compensated for this.

In general i do not care for all the "Illegals" that are in this country, but then again the bulk of my ancestry could probably be considered illegal since they took the land from the ones who lived here b4 them back in the beginning. I do not care for the loss of jobs as a result of this (and the whole shipping of jobs overseas either), however they are willing to do jobs that many "citizens" would not be willing to do, especially at the rates they get paid for.

I see that the US is going to be building its own BERLIN WALL between the US and Mexico, partially as a SECURITY issue to prevent terrorists from crossing the border. Well don't forget the northern boarder if it TRULY is for security reasons. So far every time we got our butts kicked here at home it was because we were arrogantly complacent that no one would dare attack us on US soil. but this is off the topic of this thread.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

There's a big difference between that and illegal immigration. North America was settled by Europeans, and taken from those who were here before. Taken. Conquered, if you like. Conquering is a lot different from illegal immigration.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I always get a kick of those with no rights, breaking the law, pretend they have rights beyond that of those read by the arresting officer.

Renegade 13 is correct, Conquest is different from illegal immigration.

European Conquered North American by the elimination (I can't make this any more mild) of native americans.

however...

Europeans (now americans) conquered 2/3rds of Mexico by illegal immigration http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Supporting illegal immigrants is, perhaps, as bad as exploiting illegal immigrants. Neither one stops illegal immigration.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

The biggest solution to ending illegal immigration is to understand why they come here.

That is, predominately, work and a better-life. Perhaps the US should focus some attention to building Mexico into a better a country with good jobs and quality of living.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

The real question is whether a country has the right to control immigration. I believe they do. Illegal immigrants should be treated with respect and compassion but should be returned to their own country. No appeals, no delays, no ambiguity. It should be made simple - if you are illegal you will be deported.

Everyone wants a better life, but breaking the law is not the way to go about it.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I find it a little hard to swallow personally because of the amount of time many of theses "illegals" have been working illegally, and haven't made the effort the become legal here.

A number of "Amnesty" and similar programs have come and gone, over the past decade at least, and yet these people still remain illegals.

I've worked in Texas, New Mexico, and California with many such illegals, and the majority I've encountered stay under the radar because they can get away with more than if they became "recognized" as legal immigrants.

These people (in the lawsuit) have had many opportunities to become legal workers, but now are jumping at the opportunity to exploit a loophole that lets them sue somebody else for not doing what they themselves should've done.

Yes, they paid into a program to get it done, but they could've easily done it just fine themselves and not had to pay anybody. Paying somebody else to take care of their situation was just another way of staying under the radar. They wanted the blanket coverage of a corporation rather than drawing attention to themselves as individuals.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

As far as I understand it it was a program that required Wendys and the immigrants to participate, not just the immigrants.
Why is hiring someone to do your legal proceedings bad? People are hiring other people all day long to to tasks for them in every aspect of the lives. And if these people mess up why should you not hold them responsible for it?
If I screw up as paramedic or lawyer I will stand to my obligations towards my patients/clients.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

"Meet the new boss/Same as the old boss".

I'm not sure that our merely mildly corrupt government would really be an improvement.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Annexation isn't the way to go all it would do is create another welfare state. US should be exporting cheaper consumer goods to mexico along with forcing mexico to reverse its stance on forbidding americans and american business from owning land in mexico (they are still a wee bit sour about the other northern 2/3rds of mexico we squatted from them I think) allowing Us industries and developers to get down there and make some real in roads.

Also, you want to really get illegal immigrants, set the national language to english and put everything illegal immigrants need in english-only too.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that hiring someone to do your legal proceedings is bad. But not following through with your own legal responsibilities or obligations (such as correcting the issues of citizenship, legal work permits, or immigration), then using the legal system to punish someone else who didn't follow through seems a bit bent to me.

If a lwayer, doctor, or paramedic failed at their job, of course they'd be accountable. But then, you can be sure they followed all the appropriate steps needed to get there and become accountable, too.

The issue for me is not that the lawyers didn't do their job, but that the knowingly illegal workers are expecting them to follow rules they themselves do not feel obligated to. Yes, the lawyers screwed up, but aren't those who persist in remaining illegal when they've more than enough opportunity not to be screwing things up too?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Why not just allow anyone who doesn't have a criminal record to immigrate?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I mean no offense when I say this, but...what would give the US the right to try to force a friendly sovereign nation to do anything?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Same way Mexico gets off *****ing about how we treat its illegal immigrants.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Can ypu provide further details or information on amnesty programs for illegals over the past decade or so?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

If Wendy's broke the law then they should pay. Being illegal employee or immigrant, doesn't give a company the right to treat people like slaves.

I support any ones choice to work for a living, however I feel that legal immigration is the right way. When people come here illegally and then often are given the mistaken right to vote, and those votes, in the tens of thousands, do fraudulently effect the out come of legitimate elections. They cheat legal Americans out of their right to free un-tampered elections. They tap our welfare system and health care providers from billions each year that only end up increasing health care costs and taxes. While I believe everyone should have access to health care, especially children, I feel that regardless of our a person legal standing as a citizen they should be treated, helped, but then sent back to the country they came from. The illegal immigration is cheating the immigration system and slowing the process for those who want to live and immigrate here legally.

Prove to the people who want to live here that if they follow the rules they win. However, if they take the short cut and sneak into the US we will eventually catch them and then they will be sent back to their home nation. While there is no legal penalty past being deported for illegally entering this country, there should be a punishment that enforces the law to the degree that if you illegally enter this nation you will pay for that crime. However what that punishment would be and then implementing it would cost billions and be no more affective in the end than the current system. So what are we left with? We have millions of people who want to come here to make a living, to better the of their families and themselves. No one can blame them for that. And no one should.

However legal immigration should be the way that is done. So the only effective method for slowing the flow would be to make it very expensive, even to the degree of prison time, to any employer who hires an illegal immigrant too work. Eventually no company or farmer would risk it and the word will get back to those who want to sneak in that not only will they not find a job, but also they will be caught and deported. (If they repeat the offense then perhaps jail time.)

People have the right to want to live and make their lives better. God only knows that as the third largest nation in the world now, the US can certainly do more to help those who really need our help than we have in the past.

I will even bet that if we gave the opportunity for Afghan and Pakistan refugees to come here and live, even though they hate us, they would come. They would come because they know that a life in the US is far better than the life they would have otherwise.

As to Mexican illegal immigration, well Mexico has to step up to bat as well. We all know that the Mexican government wants as many illegal immigrants in the US as they can force across the boarder. They want this to effect election out comes, to burden the US economically, and to send a message, "hey it was our land before it was yours and we want it back!"

If Mexico’s economy was better, and God knows it should be, then those people who would otherwise come here, would instead remain home and make a life for themselves in their own nation. Tell the Mexican government to get off their lazy asses, end the corruption, get it into gear, and do the right thing for their own people and nation.

Until the system is addressed, all those illegal immigrants that are working here in the US, make them PAY TAXES!

We might not be able to stop the flow of illegal immigration, but we can at least make damn sure those working pay their fair share of taxes to help pay for the services for those who don't or can't work.

Edit: Corrected Spelling added content.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Actually, if you divide $313 by 5.25 you get 59.6 hours, which I doubt that Wendy's would allow. He was probably
making 7 or 8 an hour. Not that it makes any difference -
poop wages or week old rancid poop wages still boil down to
the same thing (an unpleasantly chunky stew). I just couldn't resist nit picking.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Hmm..."better". Planning an invasion of mexico are we?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

<font color="blue">AMF</font> : My knowledge comes from first-hand experience here, as I have volunteered more than two hundred hours of my personal time to help the Department of Social Services in California.

I have volunteered my time as a translator, as an intake aid, in welfare and medical screenings, and more. I have been personally involved in some of the programs that have reached out to a huge number of illegal immigrants, and while a portion of them have taken advantage of these programs, an equal if not larger portion has refused them because of the requirements of accountability.

If you REALLY WANT TO KNOW, PERSONALLY, take the time to find out by VOLUNTEERING your personal time in this capacity as I have, instead of grand-standing in some unrelated forum. Or, if that's too much effort, just look it up online. That's what most folks like yourself do, anyway.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

That's what frustrates me here -&gt; They already CAN do that. They jusy didn't chose to.


You wouldn't need to request details or info on this if you every watched the news, especially in states most affected by illegal immigrants. Every few months theres some article about it. Additionally, these same illegals who readily know how to get Welfare can use the same offices &amp; services to gain citizenship or legal working status, and have been able to for years.

I wholehearted agree, and don't believe for a minute that if Wendy's broke the law or treated these people badly they should get away with it. My problem lies in people like the individual who's been here 14yrs, knowingly illegal, using this event to their advantage. Without sounding hard-*** (which is not where I'm coming from here), he and many others like him have had numerous chances to avoid this problem and didn't. Them an opportunity comes to gain from it and there's a lawsuit.

My only real point in all of this is that I believe illegal is illegal, and if the opportunity exists to correct that then they should've done so. Especially the people who have knowingly skirted that edge for years.

As I've said earlier, I have worked with many such people, and have had first-hand experience with many, many people who skirt the system until they can use it to their advantage. I think if you want to live here and work here, more power to you. Just do it legally. I believe if you're law-abiding and willing to work you're more than welcome here. But if come here knowingly illegal, work illegally, do anything illegally, you should have to face the consequences of your actions. I am a legal citizen here, and you can bet if I break the law I'm held accountable. Should someone who's here illegally be any less accountable?

Please understand, I'm not against these people in any way. I just don't agree with people who are illegal using a system established by people who are to their advantage.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Ok, I'll ignore the snarkiness, and ask the question again, becuase I really just want to know, and you stated that you did know: can you tell me more about thsese amnesty programs that existed? Really, I just want to know.

I mean, from a personal POV this whole amnesty issue is probably the sole remaining issue that I agree with Bush on, so I am quite curious about it.

If you don't want to tell me, that's fine (weird, but fine).

You also mention:

Can you tell me more in this regard as well? It's always been my understanding that the, aside from being born on US soil or being born to US parents, the only way to become a citizen was through the naturalization process, which requires one to have held a green card for many years. To get a green card, you have to either be a permanent resident, or win one in the annual lottery. To get perm resident status, I think you have to be married to a US citizen, or have an employer sponsor...

But if there are amnest programs about, then I would like to know more about them. Also, if I've got the above wrong, please let me know. Really!

Thanks,

AMF

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

AMF, I don't think he was directly speaking about a specific amesty program but more so about dicussions he may have watched or heard on news programs.

I believe he my have been generalizing a decade of dicussions without considering the possiblity that someone might want more specific information. He cannot be faulted for this as I am sure he did not intend to be grilled in a sentence per sentence manor regarding his comments.

I am sure that if you yourself investigated the subject you could offer more specific insight about the topic of amnesty.

I am sure that we would all benefit from your research into the topic.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

One of CBS News' new "freeSpeech" opinion segments was by a young man who has been trying to get legal immigration status for over ten tears. I would not be surprised if some of these people who have been here for fourteen years have tried to follow the rules, but are still pending in the overtaxed bureaucracy.

Here is an article about the failures of the amnesty that was granted in 1986.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Sometimes the answer to the question is "No". There is no country on Earth except the USA that seems to be "required" to take in anyone who asks, regardless of why and how.

If I walk across the border into Mexico illegally, do you know what the fine is? 4 years in jail and $50,000 USD. What a bunch of hypocrites! Mexico complains that the USA doesn't treat its illegals well because it doesn't make it easier, when Mexico does a LOT more than give a slap on the wrist!

It is not the responsibility of the USA to take care of Mexican citizens. Why are we on the same continent, but where there is poverty and corruption to the south, there is wealth and less corruption a few miles north? And when did it become the USA's job to provide for Mexican citizens?

Immigration is not a bad thing, Illegal immigration IS. If you've already shown that you have NO respect for the countries laws, why should you be allowed in at all?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Volunteering is a very good way to gain first hand knowledge of a subject. A good recommendation there BK.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

RonGianti said:
Why are we on the same continent, but where there is poverty and corruption to the south, there is wealth and less corruption a few miles north?

Because the entire Spanish colonial system was rife with personal corruption throughout its history. The practices of officials in Spain were carried over to the colonies. Corruption was deeply embedded in the system, and it only continued as the colonies gained independence.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Wow, you are seriously misinterpreting what I said. And you're awfully angry too. Fine, I hope that works for you. But the fact remains that you said there were amnesty programs, and all I did was politely ask for details. If you know so much about them, why not share?

What type of person am I, exactly?

And, you seem to be casting (ad hominem) aspersions on my character, and thereby implying that my opinion is not as valuable to this debate as yours. So, just so you know: yes, if I were back in the States I would be volounteering in things of this nature, of that I am sure. But, unfortunately, I have been overseas for some time now. I do contribute here to immigrant related charities, however.

So here, again, is my question of you: what amnesty programs existed in the past decade?

Really, I just want to know.

EDIT: deleted unecessary snarkiness on my part.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

BK:
You have misinterpreted AMF's benign request for information. Why do you attack him so when all he wants is some info on amnesty programs?

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I know this was somewhat rhetorical in nature, but there is another country that is as bad or worse...Canada. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Might I add Germany to the list? We still have quite a lot of war refugees from the Balkans here, too. I guess every wealthy country attracts those with no hope in their own country.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Moderator Mode

Just a friendly reminder to all, please be respectful of your fellow posters and keep an open mind during the discussion. And please lean away from any desire to take things too personally. as this is an open discussion with many varied opinions that might spark some amosity while not intending too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

My intention here was not to attack <font color="blue">AMF</font>, but rather to inform as to the nature of why I have a unique perspective in this particular kind of case, and how best to learn about the programs if he were truly interested.

There are many such programs, and I honestly didn't see the need to list them in response to what appeared to be nothing more than a personal challenge of my opinions and statements. Listing the programs here, simply to prove to an individual they exist, seemed pointless to me. If he was that dedicated to finding out what they were it's an easy thing to do so. It just didn't seeme to me that was the case, and even less so as there are no plans to do anything with it.

In doing what I do I run across many people who'll challenge that illegal immigrants have such opportunities, without taking the time themselves to actually find out if this is true or not personally. Many of these people want websites, or literature, or other such proof - not to learn from it but rather to challenge it's existance. These same defenders/challengers rarely volunteer their own time and efforts though.

I'll readily admit I tend to get frustrated by many liberal points of view saying that these people are not being treated fairly or given the same opportunities and the rest of us.

And I'll tell you this - they're right.

More opportunity is given than to the average citizen. And unfortunately, more advantaged is taken also.


I'm not angry at anyone, not by a longshot, and I was not implying anyone's opinion was less valid, only possibly less informed or sincere. And the only character aspersions I care to cast are the same ones I'd cast on everyone everywhere - If you're unhappy with society or feel people aren't getting treated the way they should, DO more about it and GRIPE or CHALLENGE less. Talk is easy, cheap, and in the end meaningless. I've said this to everyone of my friends, family, coworkers, and aquaintences. I'm no activist, I'm just involved where I can be to make a difference or help.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

I should also explain my position better: I do fully agree that if someone breaks the law (ie: if they are in a country illegally), then they should face the legal consequences of their actions. The law is the law. From that perspective, in no way do I condone illegal immigration.

However, I often get the impression that those who believe illegals should be punished are forgetting that people are people. I'm a big fan of Kant, and I fear that we often regard 'foreigners' as means to ends, not as people in and of themselves. So, when we talk about illegals in the US, we often reduce them to statistics and make economic or sociological arguments about how there presence takes away taxes, or jobs, or provides us with cheap labor, or is an affront to our soveriegnty, and so forth. I find this inherently concerning because at the end of the day, illegal or not, these are *people* who possess the same hopes, dreams, fears, and loves that we all do. And if we take a purely legalistic approach to this problem, and ignore the very real human aspects of it, we risk treating them as means, not ends. We risk losing what makes America a "city on a Hill" that embodies an ideal and hope that we have always espoused (much as I think we already have with the whole torture thing).

Where I live (Bahrain) I am involved with a migrant workers' protection charity. They've got lots of terrible stories about migrants who come here to work - as day laborers, forced prostitutes, or maids. The abuse and hell that these people put up with is so awful its brutal. And it comes, fundamentally, from treatingf them as means not ends. For example, there are lots of day laborers here who come over from India to work in construction so they could send money back to their families. They are brought over by unscurpulous construction companies who, upon their arrival, confiscate their passports and don't get them 'legal' worker's permits. They work twelve hours a day 6 days a week, and half days on fridays in the brutal heat (trust me, very hot here) for about 50 US dollars a month. If they are injured, they have no recourse. They can, and often are, fired without cause, when the company needs to cut back expenses. They have no rights, and the companies do not protect them at all.

So, three of these day laborers were walking 'home' to their shack one day and a police officer stopped them and asked for their papers. They of course had none, and they weren't allowed to contact their company (who probably would've denied it knew them anyways). So they were thrown in jail, without any access to a lawyer or anything. And trust me, jails in this part of the world are more often than not, death sentences. Without any money or habeas corpus rights, these men had no ability to challenge their imprisonment. They had no trial, or communication with their families or outside world.

They were kept in jail for twenty-seven years.

Finally, the charity I support raised enough money to fill out the paperwork to get them deported back to India. It cost something around a hundred US dollars. And twenty-seven years of their lives.

Now, one can say, well life's tough and then you die, there will be poor always pathetically struggling, that's just the nature of the world. But that is, to me, inherently immoral and antithetical to almost all religious beleifs. At the very least, people should be treated as ends in themselves, and we should acknowledge their dignity, accord them self respect, and strive to provide them with a minimum of rights and recourse.

Now, I'm not saying that "we Americans" don't try to do that, nor do I mean to imply that the posters don't either. But I think it's pretty clear that we could certainly do better. But even more important than that, to me, is that we recognize the inherent right to respect that all people deserve. If we fail to do that, then we are as bad as the worse country out there. At the end of the day, it is merely dumb luck that we were born where we were - there but for the grace of God go we. And as I get older, I realize more and more that what is important in life is not making money, or playing computer games, but striving for a better world. Eventually, I will be worm food - but I hope that when I am gone I will have changed the world, even a tiny bit, for the better. One key way to do that is by treating people as ends in themselves, not means.

And for these reasons, I agree with an amnesty program, by and large, and in some form or another. This is, ironically enough, one of the few remaining things I agree with Pres. Bush on anymore.

I hope this clarifies my position, and makes my passion about this and other subjects more understandable. And maybe, just maybe, I've planted a few seeds as well.

Thanks for reading this far.

AMF

EDIT:

Apparently, I was writing my post at the same time you were posting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So in RE:

I would humbly suggest that, given the nature of listservs and forums, that to assume someone's positions or beleifs is likely to lead to mischaracterizations and projection of one's own preconceptions. I could go into great length as to why I don't think I am "less informed or sincere" or "rarely volounteer my own efforts" or so forth. IF you want to cast those aspersion "on everyone everywhere" then that's certainly your right, but you also have to be prepared for people who don't fit your preconceptions to take offense. I would humbly suggest that in our internet ago making assumptions only after getting evidence would lead to fewer misconceptions.

And it would run a lesser risk of insulting people, by implying that they are, for example, "less sincere."

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Nothing AMF posted ever seemed like any sort of challenge; it all looked like honest curiousity.

Re: OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy\'s...
 

Pish Posh, I'm planning a mass deportation of aggre-- er I mean Progressive and professional "workers" of the United States Military Organization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif