Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

It seems that the To Hit Chance of weapon platforms gets screwed when there are fighters (and possibly some other units) on the planet. In other words.. if there are weapon platforms and units on the same planet the weapon platforms To Hit Chance goes up, possibly (not sure of this) the other units To Hit Chance gets added to the weapon platforms To Hit Chance. For Example when you have fighters on the planet, the weapon platforms To Hit Chance is always 99% and it will stay that way until the end of combat even if you launch all the units into space (this happens both in simulator and in real game).

There also seems to be another hard coded feature which is different in simulator and in real combat. Weapon platforms get +30% To hit chance in simulator but only +6% in real combat.

Could someone check and confirm these findings?

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Hmmm... and the WP's to-hit is lower than 99% without any other units on the planet? It seems strange that fighters on a planet would affect the planet's to-hit chance. As for the to-be-hit, since the WPs are on a planet, that's irrelevant (only two possible values: 99% to-hit for normal, 100% for Religious Talisman).

As for the simulator... only thing I can think of is that the simulator doesn't add in racial traits, and thus if you had a racial trait of -24% Offense, you would get those results.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

I don't know how many times that little 1% has caused extreme embarrasment to my gunners, but its been a lot

When you miss a planet from point-blank range, reads roll http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

When you miss a planet from point-blank range, reads roll http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif[/b][/quote]


Well I see my gunners are not the only one's that are bad shots http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif



------------------
mottlee@gte.net
"Kill em all let God sort em out"

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
Hmmm... and the WP's to-hit is lower than 99% without any other units on the planet?[quote]

Yes.. weapon platforms should use same to hit mechanism as every other unit in the game...

For example: You have 1 weapon platform (race that owns it has no racial modifiers or racial traits) with combat sensors III (+65% to hit) on a planet and its target is battlecruiser which has no experience, is not part of any fleet and the race that owns it has no racial modifiers/racial traits. The only thing that decreases the to hit chance to battlecruiser is its ECM III system (+60% in defense). Range from the planet to the battlecruiser is lets say 5 and the beams in the weapon platform have no Weapon modifier (antiproton beam XII).

Now the chance to hit the battlecruiser should be 100%+65%-60%-50%=55%, but when there are no other units on the planet the to hit chance is 61% in real combat and 85% in simulator. It gets much weirder when there are fighters on the planet at the beginning of the combat. In this case the weapon platforms chance to hit the battlecruiser (or any other unit in space) is 99% (regardless of range as long as the range is equal or less than the maximum range of antiproton beam XII).

[quote] It seems strange that fighters on a planet would affect the planet's to-hit chance. As for the to-be-hit, since the WPs are on a planet, that's irrelevant (only two possible values: 99% to-hit for normal, 100% for Religious Talisman).[quote]

Uhm.. maybe i was a bit unclear (my english sucks), but the thing that i meant was the fact that weapon platforms have 99% chance to hit ships/fighters regardless of range and other modifiers when there are fighters on the planet at the beginning of the combat.

[quote] As for the simulator... only thing I can think of is that the simulator doesn't add in racial traits, and thus if you had a racial trait of -24% Offense, you would get those results.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were no race modifiers/racial traits when i tested this... (created a new race with no race modifiers or racial traits).

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Well I tested this in the simulator and cannot confirm it. The hit chance of the weapon platforms on the planet was lower than 99% even in the presence of 15 fighters all with combat sensors. Even more the hit chance decreased like it should with the target distance.
Second I tested also satellite Groups with ECM and combat sensors. Here too everything seems to work as it should.
It is just fighter Groups that have the bug. And the bigger the fighter group the bigger is the combined effect of the ECM/combat sensors (see corresponding topic).

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
Well I tested this in the simulator and cannot confirm it. The hit chance of the weapon platforms on the planet was lower than 99% even in the presence of 15 fighters all with combat sensors. Even more the hit chance decreased like it should with the target distance.[quote]

Were the fighters in the planets cargo at the beginning of the combat? Did you use a normal ship as a target? If you used another large fighter group as a target the anomality could very well cancel itself.

I just did a new clean install and applied v1.35 patch over it. The problems are still there http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.
Here is exactly what i did and repeated with new clean install...

Phase 1:
1. Created a new race with no racial modifiers/racial traits.
2. Started new game with this race (high tech start), no computer players.
3. Designed large fighter(1*f. cockpit, 1*f. life support, 7*small Q.Engine III), battlecruiser (1*bridge, 2*life support, 2*crew quarters, 6*Q. Engine III) and large weapon platform (1*W. Plats. Comp. Core, 1*Antiproton beam XII (No mounts)).
4. Started simulator, and changed player 2 to human control.
5. Added 1 battlecruiser to player 1 and the home planet with 1 large weapon platform to player 2.
6. Started the combat in simulator and moved the battlecruiser to a distance of 8 from the planet. Now the weapon platforms chance to hit the battlecruiser should be 100%-80%=20% but it is 50%!!!. So here is the mysterious +30% chance to hit in simulator (applies only on weapon platforms in simulator).

Phase 2:
1. Stop the combat and add 1 heavy fighter to planets cargo.
2. Move the battlecruiser again to a distance of 8 from the planet.
3. Now the to hit chance should be 100%-80%+(30%)= 20%/(50%) but surprise surprise its 99%.

Phase 3:
1. Stop the combat again and add 1 large fighter to player 1.
2. Move the large fighter to a distance of 2 from the planet.
3. Now the to hit chance should be 100%-20%-60%+(30%)=20%/(50%). But the actual hit chance according the simulator is now 90%!!!.
The solution is the fact that the fighters offensive modifier is added to the weapon platforms offensive modifier. Here is how it goes when you take in account the so called fighter bug (i suppose this bug affects on all units that are in the same tactical combat square):
Hit chance is 100%(Base hit chance)-20%(range modifier)+100%(2*fighters offensive modifier)-120%(2*the target fighters defensive modifier)+30%(the mysterious weapon platform modifier in simulator)=90%, exactly the to hit chance that appears now in the simulator...

[quote]
Second I tested also satellite Groups with ECM and combat sensors. Here too everything seems to work as it should.
It is just fighter Groups that have the bug. And the bigger the fighter group the bigger is the combined effect of the ECM/combat sensors (see corresponding topic). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humm.. in my experience the ECM systems and combat sensors do not stack even in fighter Groups. Only things that stack are the abilities Combat To Hit Offense/Defense Plus in VehicleSize.txt file. Satellites do not have any abilities in VehicleSize.txt file, fighters do have (large fighter has +50% offense and +60% defense).

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 14 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 14 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 14 May 2001).]

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

You could chek to see if it related only to fighters by putting 2 x ECM and 2 X combat sensors on the respective ships. They use the same ability. See if they also stack, they shouldn't.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

HreDaak: yes the fighter were in the cargo section of the planet and yes again the target was a ship. I can only say: more testing is needed!

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

The more tests I make the less I understand it:
If I have two weapon platforms on a planet one with combat sensors and one without, the hit chance for both are equal! And if you compare it to one single weapon platform without combat sensors it seems that the combat sensor is effective for both platforms.
If I have an equal fighter group of ten each, one group with ECM and combat sensors (max tech level) and the other without, the hit chance for the first group on the other is 1% and for the second group on the first one 10% if the are on adjacent squares.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
You could chek to see if it related only to fighters by putting 2 x ECM and 2 X combat sensors on the respective ships. They use the same ability. See if they also stack, they shouldn't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tested this one.. they do not stack. But there is this one strange problem with them. When there are units in the same tactical square (on a planet for example) the highest of the combat sensors/ECM systems present is used by ALL the units in the same tactical square (on a planet for example). You could create 2 different weapon platforms of which one has combat sensors and the other one does not have and their chance to hit hostile targets in combat are same... (ie. both weapon platforms benefit from combat sensors even though only one of them actually has them).

Here is a list of bugs/features that i have encountered in a tactical combat...

1. Weapon Modifier in Components.txt and Weapon To Hit Modifier in CompEnhancements.txt behave strangely. They both raise the weapons minimum To Hit Chance in combats. So if you give weapon a Weapon Modifier or a Weapon To Hit Modifier (Mount) the weapons minimum chance to hit in combat is raised to this number+1%. For example if you give a weapon Weapon Modifier of X then that weapons to hit chance in combats never (if the target is in that weapons range) goes below (X+1)%.

2. Combat To Hit Offense/Defense Plus abilities in VehicleSize.txt do stack on units that are in the same tactical square at the beginning of the combat (all units on a planet are in the same tactical square).

3. The abilities Combat To Hit Offense/Defense Plus in Components.txt file do not stack but the highest of these abilities present in that tactical square at the beginning of the combat is used by all the units (all units on a planet are in the same tactical square).

For example: At the beginning of the combat on a planet there are 2 weapon platforms with combat sensors III, 3 weapon platforms without combat sensors and 10 large fighters with small combat sensors III.
ALL the weapon platforms on a planet have same offensive modifier. This modifier is +65%(from the highest Combat To Hit Offense Plus ability from Components.txt file that is present on the planet)+550%(large fighters Combat To Hit Offense ability from VehicleSize.txt file*11)+30%/+6%(depending if its simulator or real combat)=+645%/+621%.

4. Weapon platforms on a planet have offensive modifier of +30% in simulator and +6% in real combats (this is hard coded feature or a bug).

Could someone repeat those 3 test phases that are in my earlier post and then post the results in this thread?

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
The more tests I make the less I understand it:
If I have two weapon platforms on a planet one with combat sensors and one without, the hit chance for both are equal! And if you compare it to one single weapon platform without combat sensors it seems that the combat sensor is effective for both platforms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep.. all the units in the same tactical square at the beginning of the combat use the best combat sensors offensive modifier.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
If I have an equal fighter group of ten each, one group with ECM and combat sensors
(max tech level) and the other without, the hit chance for the first group on the other is 1% and for the second group on the first one 10% if the are on adjacent squares
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The First Groups (with ECM and combat sensors) chance to hit the other fighter group is 100%(Base Hit Chance)-10%(range modifier)+550%(11*the ability combat to hit offense plus from vehiclesize.txt)-660%(11*the ability Combat to hit defense plus from vehiclesize.txt if you are using large fighters otherwise its higher)+30%(combat sensors)= 10%. The other fighter Groups chance to hit the group with ECM's, Comb. Sensors is 100%-10%+550%-660%-30%(ECM)= -50% , the chance to hit is below 0% and so it's rounded to 1% which is the minimum chance in any situation (could have something to do with the Weapon modifier in components.txt file that is set to 0 for all small weapons (0+1)%=1%).


[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 15 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 15 May 2001).]

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

That is very odd, that the ability in the vehicle file stacks but not the component file.


[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 15 May 2001).]

Maybe the ability needs to be removed from the hull and given to the cockpit with a comprable increase to fighter ecm and sensors.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 15 May 2001).]

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

More bad news: I had a group of 30 fighters against a group of 20 fighters. Not astonishing after you are aware of the bug the hit chance for the larger group was displayed 99% and for the smaller group 1%.....
but...
when I just fired with the smaller group on the larger one I got about 20% hits!!
So the displayed hit chance is not the real hit chance!!

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here is a list of bugs/features that i have encountered in a tactical combat...

1. Weapon Modifier in Components.txt and Weapon To Hit Modifier in CompEnhancements.txt behave strangely. They both raise the weapons minimum To Hit Chance in combats. So if you give weapon a Weapon Modifier or a Weapon To Hit Modifier (Mount) the weapons minimum chance to hit in combat is raised to this number+1%. For example if you give a weapon Weapon Modifier of X then that weapons to hit chance in combats never (if the target is in that weapons range) goes below (X+1)%.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do not understand why you think this one is a bug. That is exactly the behavior I'd expect, unless you're saying that the two modifiers don't stack if they're both put on a single unit.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Do any weapons in the basic game have a to hit modifier? I don't recall seeing any that do.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do not understand why you think this one is a bug. That is exactly the behavior I'd expect, unless you're saying that the two modifiers don't stack if they're both put on a single unit.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm.. well, imo i did not exactly say that any of these so called features are bugs.. thats why i use the notation bug/feature (only Aaron knows if they are bugs). I would have expected them to just give +X% offensive modifier to that weapon/mount and not limit the minimum to hit chance to (X+1)%. If i have earlier said that any of these things i've been posting are bugs, i have been in error, there is no way i could know that they are bugs since i'am not the one who has designed this great game. In any case i hope that i've not been offensive in any way...

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
Do any weapons in the basic game have a to hit modifier? I don't recall seeing any that do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In addition to point-defense cannons (+70) atleast Incinerator beams have +10, Wave motion guns have +30, high energy magnifiers have +30, Tachyon cannons have +10 and Mental singularity generator has +20, dunno if any others have...

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Thanks, I don't usually use those fancy weapons http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif except for the PD.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

HreDaak I followed precisely you three step simulator trial in the original SE IV Version 1.35 (without TDM-ModPack):
I can now confirm your results 100%!

I don't know what caused the difference to my first trial but then I used an ongoing game with TDM-ModPack and some modifications of my own including special mounts for weapon platforms.

Just one more question: why has one single fighter twice the offensive/defensive modifier in your calculation?
And please mail your findings to MM if you didn't do that already.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Just one more question: why has one single fighter twice the offensive/defensive modifier in your calculation?
And please mail your findings to MM if you didn't do that already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have tested it and thats just how it works in my experience. If you have X fighters in a group they have (X+1)*their combat to hit offense/defence from VehicleSize.txt file...
Note that this behaviour does not include ships and possibly some other units, they benefit from those abilities normally...

I did some more testing and noticed something interesting. The range calculation from the planets weapon platforms is counted from the upper left corner square of the planet. So when you are attacking a planet you should approach it from south or from east. That way the weapon platforms chance to hit you is 30% lower than if you approach the planet from northwest. I suppose thats why the weapon platforms have this intrinsic +30% chance to hit targets. Your chance to hit the planet is ofcourse always 99%. Also earlier i was in error when i said that the weapon platforms bonus in real combat is +6%, it's 30% also in real combats. I made few mistakes when i tested this http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Thank you HreDaak for your excellent analyses. If you do these testing yourselves as I do, you certainly don't blame anybody for mistakes http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif! It's really complicated.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

So, does anything else 'stack' about to hit modifiers now? Maybe stealth/scattering armor stacks with your ECM now? Has anyone checked? It seems odd that this bug would just "pop up" without a reason. he must hav been trying to change something.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
HreDaak I followed precisely you three step simulator trial in the original SE IV Version 1.35 (without TDM-ModPack):
I can now confirm your results 100%!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh.. sorry, i somehow accidentally deleted this part in my earlier message http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

Good to hear that i wasnt just imagining things http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
So, does anything else 'stack' about to hit modifiers now? Maybe stealth/scattering armor stacks with your ECM now? Has anyone checked? It seems odd that this bug would just "pop up" without a reason. he must hav been trying to change something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not checked if this so called stacking bug/feature is only in v1.35. I did not notice it in earlier Versions since i had not bothered to test tactical combat until now (AI_Strategies.txt file wasnt working correctly until v1.35, 20. Fixed - AI was not reading the AI_Strategies.txt file if it was in that race's directory.)
So i started tweaking this file and watching the AI battle against each other when i noticed that smaller fighter Groups had serious problems to hit larger fighter Groups.. so i naturally started investigate this and one thing led to another. And yes i have nothing else productive to do than mod and play Space Empires IV http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.

On ECM, stealth armor and scattering armor.. yes they do stack now with each other. When you design new ships just click the To Hit Modifier on the right side of the screen (new in v1.35) and you see the current defense and offense modifiers.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would have expected them to just give +X% offensive modifier to that weapon/mount and not limit the minimum to hit chance to (X+1)%.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think I see where the confusion is coming from. If I understand things correctly, any weapon that has a target within its range has a minimum 1% chance to hit. The +X% offensive modifier is added after checking the range, so the to-hit chance becomes (1+X)% <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In any case i hope that i've not been offensive in any way...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No problem; you haven't offended anyone, I just didn't understand what you were saying.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
So, does anything else 'stack' about to hit modifiers now? Maybe stealth/scattering armor stacks with your ECM now? Has anyone checked? It seems odd that this bug would just "pop up" without a reason. he must hav been trying to change something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think ship & fleet experience is supposed to stack now as well; in fact, I believe the experience problem (i.e., ship & fleet experience _didn't_ stack prior to 1.35) is what Aaron was trying to fix in one of the patches.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Stealth and scattering armor will stack with ECM now. Actually pretty much anything will stack for combat to hit offense and defense plus bonuses. I have a component in mod for a cybernetic interface and AI computer as one component that provides combat movement and offensive and defensive bonuses. My idea was to use that for certain races instead of sensors and ECM, but I tested it and it will stack with sensors and ECM. You can rack up some pretty high bonuses if you different components.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

With all this new stacking allowed, has anybody checked to see if ECM III stacks with ECM II and ECM I ???

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
With all this new stacking allowed, has anybody checked to see if ECM III stacks with ECM II and ECM I ???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do not stack with each other...
I suppose it's component family related, ie components in same family do not stack with each other.

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

I think it related to the vehicle file modifiers and units being stracked in the same space.
There are only a few types of units that can be in the same space, fighters, WP, mines and sats I think. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you gave offense plus and defense plus to a sat in the vehicle file. Would you have similiar weirdness happening?

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
I think it related to the vehicle file modifiers and units being stracked in the same space.
[quote]
Components are working almost the way they should (the way i think they should work). Only problem with components is in Groups where all the members of the group use the best component ability that the group has. I was talking of components in my previous post...

[quote]
There are only a few types of units that can be in the same space, fighters, WP, mines and sats I think. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you gave offense plus and defense plus to a sat in the vehicle file. Would you have similiar weirdness happening?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.. i think this bug/feature concerns all units (weapon platforms,fighters,satellites,troops etc...).
Though the only one that suffers from this bug/feature in basic game are the fighters since they are the only ones that have combat modifiers from VehicleSize.txt file...

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 20 May 2001).]

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

Does this also affects troops?

Re: Another possible combat bug in v1.35 (weapon platforms)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
Does this also affects troops?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VehicleSize.txt file bug/feature no, because troops dont have any combat modifiers from there. Component bug/feature.. maybe, it's pretty hard to check because you cant see their modifiers during ground combat...