Message from Abysia
 

We declare war upon Illwinter!

In earlier days we were a nation of fiercy warriors and mighty wizards, dominating the battlefield with fire and steel. Now we have become a nation of fierce warriors and old men!

After the awakening of our new goddess, she declared her first anathema dragon to be her prophet. Too bad the prophet cought a disease in late spring and died shortly after on old age. Same happened to the mages the pretender gathered in his capitol to research magic and the likes for him, they seem to die faster than he can recruit new mages! Conquest of new lands have become scarce, as those mages escorting the troops have bad eyesight due to their age and wouldn't hit a target even if it was standing directly in front of them!

Now, it's the late summer in year 4 of the ascension wars, and our goddess, the almighty enchantress has grown old herself! How long until she dies from those terrible illnesses? next time, we will surely worship something more lasting, like a well or a huge stone!

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Take some Death with the Enchantress. Death magic.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Death scale makes old age more severe. Growth scale helps to keep the afflictions away. Death magic helps to survive longer before getting afflictions from old age. Nature magic keeps you younger. Fire magic slightly lowers your maximum age. The maximum age of Abysians is lower than that of humans.

Personally, I'd like to see Pangaea's and Abysia's ages switched around. Abysians would live for slightly longer than humans (perhaps 75 years), while the half-people of Pangaea had the shorter age now given to Abysians. Satyrs and Centaurs would suffer from old age sooner than the Minotaurs. Panii would always be few centuries old, and perhaps have a chance of old age even with their Nature magic. This has nothing to do with what nation I prefer to play or think is more powerful, but I'd rather see Abysia taking Death and Pangaea Growth than the other way round.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Seriously, I've said this numerous times in the channel. Old Age: Dumbest mechanic ever. What is it for? Flavor? Annoyance? Adding in even more random factors for a strategy game? Lame.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Well, Illwinter oriented itself at fantasy literature.

Imagine how Lord of the Rings would have ended if Gandalf hadn't died of old age in the mines of Moria! Or imagine Merlin changing the looks of Uther Pentragon as he wanted. Thank god he lost his eyesight to old age before he could do that.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Gandalf didn't die of old age, he died fighting the Moloch of the Shinuyama in the Cave Castle they had taken from Agartha in an eralier war. Their patrols had caught the sneaking force, who had counted on Shinuyama not buying much PD. Thankfully it was Aragorn the Bard who hauled the rest of the Fellowship around, and not Gandalf the Arch Druid. I think the Moloch died of dominion loss and not in the fight, btw. Gandalf himself died while retreating into enemy dominion. He was soon called back, however, and summoned Fangorn the Ivy King. Things really got rolling after that.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

No Molochs die from retreating when all their imps route. Every DII fan knows that!

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And people say that the bards soothing song would be useless...

Anyway, the old pretender was my own fault:

Poor girl was changed into a skin shifter after she naivly took that amulet from the fallen enemy commander.

I was able to cure her old age by pressing a thistle mace into her hands. She should remain youthful for another 20 years. After that an elixir of life might be the way to go.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Dip into sweet blissfull Death magic. You know you want to. Cast Twiceborn too.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Not anymore in D3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It's one of the first things I've checked. Or I've been very lucky in the couple of test battles I've made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Morale system has been redone, so the dying imps don't make Molochs rout. An easier way to test this is to play EA Yomi. Besides everything else they get, the Dai Oni start with three wolves in every battle. Perhaps they're there to protect them from assassins or something...

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Actually I think it's a pretty good addition - now instead of your most powerful mage being the obvious buy (if you have the money) maybe you'll think about buying some younger mages, who last awhile longer. Thus more units get used, and the game just got more strategic depth.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

I also like it. Besides it's fun to scramble for ways to prolong the life of your brittle mages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Makes nature magic very desired as well. GoH almost the best spell in game since it actually cures old age afflictions (unlike healing).

Re: Message from Abysia
 

So far I like the age mechanic and I do not see it as a random factor but rather another strategic factor to consider.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Eh, I've seen nations whose "youngest" mages are still getting diseased by old age before the demo runs out. I have to agree with KissBlade - it's a mechanic whose unintended consequence is simply to irritate the living snot out of many if not most players.

Of course, doing away with the option to view the spell lists while creating your pretender (as you could in Dom2) might also seems to be designed to irritate players. Ditto for removing the mechanism for having researching commanders greyed out when looking at a province on the map - how the beta testers let that one go by I'll never know. Doing away with themes, thus limitting diversity and removing one of the only ways to try to get close to using all your pretender points? _Hopefully_ some of these are oversites that'll get fixed via patches, but Old Age may be the single change that keeps me from getting as much game time from Dom3 as Dom2.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

How does it add more strategy? Cheapie mages had always been the favored researchers as they offer the best Research per Gold ratio. The reason people purchase expensive ones is because they offer the best combinations for battle mages and sometimes gives you the desired paths to cast a spell. Instead now, there's an even worse random factor because you could've finally got that S5 mage you're looking for and OOPS FEEBLEMINDED BECAUSE OF OLD AGE! Not to mention, there's the varying lifespan per nation which makes me think it's even sillier (Despite flavor reasons). I think I'd rather reliable mages than hiring some guys who'll just keel over when you're about to embark on an expedition. "Sorry our war against Ryleh went poorly because their mages are all still alive while half ours keeled over from old age".

Re: Message from Abysia
 

I think someone had bad experience with old mages... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

well it dose limit just how many philosophers you can stack up. I wonder why there is no game option to have old age or not though.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

> Of course, doing away with the option to view the spell lists while creating your pretender (as you could in Dom2) might also seems to be designed to irritate players. Ditto for removing the mechanism for having researching commanders greyed out when looking at a province on the map - how the beta testers let that one go by I'll never know. Doing away with themes, thus limitting diversity and removing one of the only ways to try to get close to using all your pretender points? _Hopefully_ some of these are oversites that'll get fixed via patches, but Old Age may be the single change that keeps me from getting as much game time from Dom3 as Dom2.

Didn't you read the company pages. Our real goal is the end of the world. By making an addictive game and then thrash it in the next version is a very good way to make lots of people irritated, use swear words, curse at politicians who then will go to work annoyed and start one or several small wars. In the best of worlds these politicins were also gamers believing thet there can only be ONE. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

We are aware that there are people that will not like the ageing mechanic. Some in the beta didn't. Me an JK do. I got quite annoyed when I got my blood 4 Warlock diseased by old age in an MP test, but I've been annoyed before and will probably be again in a month or two. I know how I will feel and I'm not too concerned. Irritation passes.

> I wonder why there is no game option to have old age or not though.

You mean like in real life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. If there is a wider consensus among fans there will probably appear an MP mod that alters the startage or maxage of nations with shorter lifespans. Perhaps an (EB) emotional balance mod to remove irritating or overly rewarding random elements such as age and heroes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Well said.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Besides, it's just a game, even if an exceptionaly good one. Shouldn't we enjoy it's good sides and take the occasional irritation as just a bit of a spice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

> Shouldn't we enjoy it's good sides and take the occasional irritation as just a bit of a spice?

No you shouldn't. It is your right to feel annoyed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If anyone percieve something as annoying it is good for others to hear it. If there is consensus they might do something about it in a mod. If they nag at us we might change something in a way we like or make it moddable.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

I quite like the aging mechanic myself. I just had a great run with an elderly prophet (lost both his eyes, an arm, had a never healing wound and a chest wound by the end) who still managed to lead our troops to victory over the infidel empire of C'tis.Just proves how inferior those heretic lizards actually are.
Ironically enough, he died when we discovered Inkpot End in one of the lizards' old provinces.

It would be nice if the afflictions possible were a bit more selective for old age though. It's rather amusing to see a mage who's never left the lab suffer a battle wound or similar.

I think balance might come into it though. The older mages could certainly gain from a little more magic or a research bonus over and above what they already have, to negate the fact that they tend to die in a couple of years (Disease seems to be a common affliction for age). On the other hand, you can always play a nation which doesn't have older mages, such as EA Ulm or Ermor.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Abysia's mages are slightly cheaper IIRC to compensate for the age. They are also recruitable anywhere. Warlocks are not but they can reduce age by blood magic.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

You know, a mage could get his arm blow off in a failed magic experiment...but ah, it would be nice to see stuff like Limp being a more common old age Affliction and perhaps some new old age related afflictions...

Re: Message from Abysia
 

You'd think they'd be better wizards, having studied magic for longer, rather than being desperate to sign on for a pension http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm not so sure the cost decrease goes far enough to be honest. The afflictions are a little too random - a mage can last for several years with nothing but a limp and a chest injury, or he can die a couple of turns after you recruit him. If he gets disease, he's doomed. If he gets feebleminded, he's useless.
A little more predictability would go a long way to rebalance the situation, even if it upped the price slightly. Perhaps restricting or reducing the chances of the more serious afflictions (disease, feeblemind) until severe old age would work, though preventing them from occuring within the first few turns the mage is around would help.
I also think it's a bad idea to have age on a pretender. I mean, they're not going to be much of a God if they're half senile before they start. Then again...

Re: Message from Abysia
 

I don't see anything wrong with the aging system. It is now a part of Doms 3. You can loose units faster, but this is also true about your oppoments.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Don't ever play Dwarf Fortress then. You'll find plenty of "annoyance" mechanics, such as insanity, fey moods, ugly wounds, depression, and tantrums. What would you think if one of your Warlocks blew up your laboratory or killed your prophet? I love the game, however, and same with Dom3 and aging. If you want a game with no randomness, try Chess. Even there, there is no safeguard against a wayward cat, so beware.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

> I mean, they're not going to be much of a God if they're half senile before they start. Then again...

Most pretenders in this world were either senile or mad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

"Afflictions. Dumbest mechanic ever. What is it for? Flavor? Annoyance? Adding even more random factor for a strategy game? Lame."


... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Well, since we are given control over the age of units using mod commands, it shouldn't be very hard to nullify the aging mechanism with a simple mod.
Something like:
Selectmonster 1
MaxAge 10000
Selectmonster 2
MaxAge 10000
...
Selectmonster 1500
MaxAge 10000
...

I'm just making up command names though, since I don't know the max age commands and don't remember the unit select command.
Either way you could write a script to write that for you quite easily.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

You know Abyssia is actually the nation that should suffer from least from old age. You guys just need to get used to the mechanics and workarounds.

Some tips for Abyssia:

- Use rejuvenate on your more expensive blood mages. It costs 10 blood slaves and takes away 10 years of your age. Abyssia has easy access to blood magic so it's no problem for them to do this.

- Use item that stops aging. You more expensive mages can wear boots that stop aging. From my experience it also stops getting afflictions from old age even if your commander is already old.

- get GROWTH instead of death scale. Abyssia is not immune to death scale as you may think. Death scale doesn't reduce supplies for them but population still dies, they get less income and your mages still get more afflictions from death scale. Growth scale is good for blood hunting and it helps against old age. I was using only growth 1 and it helped a lot.

- get pretender with nature magic. Nature magic allows your sacred troops to get regeneration (1/8 chance to get affliction in combat and restores HP) and they have lots of HP to make a difference and it allows your pretender to cast Gift of Health. Gift of Health heals your old age afflictions as well. It's much easier to do it in SP games, just make sure you put enough nature gems into it so that you make sure it stays up. Once you get it up, all your old age troubles go away. Good example of pretender design for Abyssia is to take imprisoned Solar Disc with F9 N6 blessing. He can have good scales as well (Order 3, Productivity 3 and Growth 1). Makes playing Abyssia easy.

I hope these tips will help reduce irritation you may get by playing them. In my last long game (well over 10 years in game time) I didn't lose a single mage due to the old age. I did lost lots due to the horrors that got attracted by lightless lanterns, but that's another story...

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Hmmm, this is interesting. Aging stopping boots? Lightless lanters attracting Horrors? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Exactly, using modding commands you can modify this part of the game also. Personally I wouldn't change it for MP games to be honest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

*Edit*

I had to fix my first sentence because it was messed up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

IMO, don't fix what's not broken. Old age just seems to be a really needless "fix".

Re: Message from Abysia
 

But it was fun to implement during development http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Message from Abysia
 

And of course you can now have a large amount of fun trying to age your humans beyond all reason. I reccomend precision 0 decay casters and burden of time. Banefire bows combined with a darkness spell also works.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Hmm, I don't yet have any definitive position on aging (as I'm middle-aged http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but yet I'm somewhat surprised by the fact that "lose an arm" is an as much probable effect of old age as "limp"...
IMHO aging should give 95% of the time some "standard" affliction, such as limp, or chest wound (lung problems...), maybe crippled. Some new "eyesight loss" affliction (prec -4) should be fitting also, but others (like lost an arm) should be very rare. "Diseased" should even be banned, in Dom the "disease" is a killer, quasi-impossible to heal, and is never caught by chance or in battle (only via magic or spreading sites/creatures). I feel it should remain this way.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

You know that Disease is supposed to represent death from old age right?

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The fact that the affliction system is so random is a bit silly by itself. Mainly because apparently despite all the magic and such, no one knew what a doctor is =\.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Except those Arco peoples. They and dem priestesses.

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Hm anyways, I thought that there will be a command line option to remove aging from the game. [I think that someone has mentioned this some months ago.]

Re: Message from Abysia
 

If you want brutal injuries, read the critical-hit tables in the Middle Earth Role-Playing System. Everything up to and including amputations and instant-death, IIRC. :p

That was -not- a "heroes kill kobolds, suffer a little bit, and instantly recover from Cure Light Wounds" game.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

If this game is going to mirror a roleplaying game I think I'll be setting my sights elsewhere in the future ...

Re: Message from Abysia
 

I really like it.

In prolonged battles. Watching Undead Archers age and cripple the back rows of troops before they've even swung a sword is funny... Just adds another aspect.



Tho i dont think pretenders should have aging problems. These are dudes who've "mastered" there mortality and are trying to achieve goddom.. Having them wither and die from old age is wierd imho. If i dont find out how to craft these boots that stop aging soon my ArchMage is going to be quite useless.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Well aging definitely added some RP flavor to the game. The "luck factor" in the MP & SP games is also more important from now on, but its all cool.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

I'd agree that pretenders shouldn't be aging much at all... so long as they have believers to sustain them.

I haven't tried to systematically identify magic sites in the game, but a rare site (N4? Or W4, fountain of youth) that had an 'enter to reduce aging' effect would be thematic.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Kiss, imho in turn based strategy games there has to be a random factor !!!
Otherwise they become a dull chess clone.

The random factor in Dominions 2 was imho just fine, 1 game out of 10 was very frustrating because of bad luck, but 1 out of 10 was also very rewarding because you had luck.

In Dom3 the random factor is about the same as in Dom2.

The problem is that if there would be no random factor in a turn based strategy game you could then plan the perfect strat. Do you really want such a game?

In a RTS if there is no random factor it is fine, there thanks to superior dexterity you can gain an edge. And in RTS you cannot do everything but have to focus on a "Schwerpunkt" with excessive micro or try to do excessive macro.
Anyways, in a RTS even if nothing is random because you cannot do everything because you are a human and not a machine this adds enough randomness.

But if you want a balanced turn based game with no random elements in it this leads to a game with identical factions, so something like chess and checkers.
Chess is a very good game, but such a game cannot get much more complex imho.
So for a turn based pc strategy game random elements are imho a must to keep it interesting.
The trick is just to make the game not tooooo random, so that skill usually wins over luck.

Dominions achieved that balance just fine in Dom2 and imho also achieves it just fine in Dom3.

Re: Message from Abysia
 

Imho aging pretenders are fine.
After all they are still mortals and not yet gods.

It depends on the type though. Most pretenders should just age normally. An archmage e.g. can life forever, but he has to do rituals every now and then for that imho. Just as it is currently in Dom3.
Also dragons, giants etc. age eventually. As long as they have enough believers they can easily do the rituals for rejuvenation. But if they have not enough believers they might have not enough resources(=gems) to do rejuvenation.

There is a handful of pretenders though for which it feels a bit wrong that they age, mainly the immortal undead ones.
A vampire or a lich never ages. And for a being from other worlds other laws should exist too, be it a beeing from the underworld like the PoD or a mighty demon like the moloch or a divine beeing like the virtue.
For all those aging is harder to justify i think.

But a story of a great archmage who had many believers but eventually died and thus was forgotten and thus became no god is imho thematic. For this type of wannabe gods the race against time adds flavour. They have not only to fight vs. the other contenders but also vs. their mortality.
Someone who is already dead like a demon or an angel doesn't have to care about his age, he only has to care about entropy which can still kill him too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.