\"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Unfortunately it seems to me that the information about new age system is somehow missing from otherwise great manual.


I would like to know more about this new old age feature, but I couldn't find any threads that discuss this topic with level of details that I am looking for, so I decided to started this new thread instead.


I have several questions about an old age. I know general idea behind the old age, that old units tend to get afflictions and becoming worse and worse with passing of years, that Growth scale helps against aging while Death makes it worse, that there are item and spells that affect it, et cetera...


What I do not know and would like to learn are mechanics behind all this stuff.


For example:

How exactly the Growth scale affects the old age?

What is the chance of geting afflictions due to the old age? Is it related to the difference between current age and start of "old age"?

What are the overal general old age penalties and when exactly the kick in - is it random or fixed, years-wise?


Is it true that "heal" command can not get rid of old age related afflictions? (that would be strange, since there is no way for me to determine if this particular affliction is from ald age or not)

How often the check for affliction is made - once per game turn? Is the check becomes more difficult to pass when your unit grows older and older?



Some of these things are very important to know in certain situations. For example, if I am playing a nation with old mages, such as TC S&A, I need to know the how link between aging and Growth scale works, to determin if I should take Growth 1 or Growth 3, or not take any Grwoth at all. And so on.


Any information regarding these questions will be very appreciated.

Thanks!

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I can tell you a few things, I've been playing EA Arco today and they have plenty of old guys.

The chance of getting afflictions is pretty random. You could have a commander get one the turn after you hire it, or it could last 20 turns or longer with nothing. They get knocked off pretty often though and need to be replaced frequently. It always happens at the beginning of a turn, you won't get an old age affliction after a battle, for instance.

I haven't noticed much of a difference with healing yet either.

If you look at the status screen for a unit, there's two numbers for age. Like 30(50). I think the 30 is their current age and the () number is the age when they get the old age icon and the potential for afflictions increases. I think that adding nature magic or growth scales increases that number, but I don't know how it relates exactly to units that start with old age, but it appears to slow down the affliction rate. I'm going to have to experiment with that a bit and figure it out, I'll get back to you on that.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Late Winter is the time old chaps do their rolls on the aging tables. 'Been that way since the days of the Pendragon RPG ;-)
This might change in a future patch to monthly rolls, though.

Nature magic moves the 'old age' threshold up (that number in paranthesis, as dirtywick already mentioned), Fire magic moves it down to smaller numbers.
Death magic is said to keep you from getting afflictions.

There seem to be 'aging levels', which give increasing negative modifiers. These levels seem to depend on the proportion of 'real age' to 'aging threshold'.

There are magical means to escape old age, but you have to figure them out yourself.

We had quite some discussion about the aging system during the beta test, but the devs never came forth with (numerical) details, therefore I would say the more exact working of it is kept in secret in purpose.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Death magic also prolongs their life.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

The ever suspicious Arralen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I don't know the numbers either. JK might well be keeping it secret for me as well as for you, but it is probably out of lazieness and a feeling that it matters little anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think death gives 30% per lvl of not getting diseased during winter age. Not sure of exact numbers. It might be 20 or 40. Thus death mages rarely die from old age.

The ageing chance is proportional (IIRC) to the max age of a unit, so an Oracle of the Deep is much less likely to get afflictions than a short lived Bandar Commander. Also the old age penalties are dependent on lifespan.

Nature adds max age as do earth magic for inanimates IIRC.

Undead have generally long life spans, but can get old age. However, they are still undead and do not suffer from disease. Only the reduced stats from bodies becoming more brittle and unrealible. Hmm, soulless should have very short lifespans, or transform into longdead. Might have been discussions on this topic earlier in the beta or in elsewhere, I don't remember.

The effect of the growth scale was mentioned in the beta, but I'm not sure if numbers were presented. I think it was.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Do you mean that even before they reach an official "old age" (the number in () ), there is a chance for affliction?

Kristoffer, under "max age of the unit" you mean the number in (), the age when unit get "old age" icon, correct?

If this is the case, and if this is the only variable in this formula, does it mean that, let's say, human mage who is 1 year over the limit of "old age", has the same chance of geting affliction during the winter season, as the same type of mage who is 30 years "over the limit"?

I think I may know some of them already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif There are boots, that stop aging process, there is Gift Of Health ritual, which cures affliction (and maybe stops aging as well), there is a spell in Blood magic, which makes caster 10 years yonger. Anything else?



Thanks a lot to everybody who shared thier knowledge here, most appreciated.


I think the only big question that I still have is about Growth scale. Based upon what you guys said, it seems to reduce the chances of getting affliction during the winter season. But by how much? For eample, I am about to play TC S&A, which, according to the manual, have "serious age problem". If I don't want me best mages to turn into senile wrecks, should I take Growth 1 or Growth 2/3?

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

> Kristoffer, under "max age of the unit" you mean the number in (), the age when unit get "old age" icon, correct?

Yep

> If this is the case, and if this is the only variable in this formula, does it mean that, let's say, human mage who is 1 year over the limit of "old age", has the same chance of geting affliction during the winter season, as the same type of mage who is 30 years "over the limit"?

Yep

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Thanks a lot, it's good to know.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

i try very hard to find the Old Age system interesting instead of annoying. Two suggestions:
1.) Offer a mod command to turn off Old Age or edit the Old Age values.
2.) Give me a reason to like Old Age. Maybe a very small chance (1%/year) that my old age sage learns a random new magic skill.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Yea I agree, all old age does is put me off the unit. Just played EA Nielfelheim, totally avoided recruiting the old age crone/hag the entire game. Also played MA Man, just recruited daughters/mothers, avoiding the grandmother until I had no choice.

Why recruit a unit that may die any time unless u have no choice?

Old mages would just retire anyway or solve there age problems with magic, I very much doubt they would want to serve a nation in a epic battle for godhood.

The more times a mage dies of old age, the more annoying it becomes...

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I like the idea of an old mage learning additional magic. A lot of nations descriptions have the old mage with lots of magic and then a young mage (who is on the same career path as the old mage) with less magic. So it would make sense to me that the mages could learn new magic over time.

Maybe each year they are around a mage gets some kind of "credit" that could be used to discount empowering in certain paths? I'm sure balance with this could get real tricky... but it could make the age mechanic more enjoyable (gaining power) instead of simply trying to stave off death and uselessness.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

It's more like that the old mages have ALREADY learn new magic. If, say, Ulm had gotten a E3F2 strange-random Ancient Smith with old age 72(46), there'd be no problem. It'd be called an interesting way to balance a more powerful mage. However, because we have learned to expect good mages that don't have a chance of dying into afflictions, old age is seen as a bore.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

But a young mage that has been around as long as the difference in ages (between young and old version) still has the low magic.

Ermor Old Faith
Compare an Augur (F1 S1) age 37 (48)
to Augur Elder (F2 S1 D2 R1) age 60 (46)

Shouldn't the skills of the Augur advance toward the Augur Elder as he gains in age? If so why would the advancement stop once he is as old as the "Augur Elder"?

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Maybe because he stops his guided training in order to join the army?

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Battlefield is the best teacher the battle mage can get soldier!


Now shut up and give me 80 pushups, you no-good green-bellyed eggheaded big-mouthed augur weakling scum!

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Speaking of Augurs, are these the dreaded Mages of Eldergate? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

You could apply the same logic to every unit you recruit when you think about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Older ages tend to be more powerful. If you want a mage of similar skills, then the only usual alternative would be to buy a younger mage and then invest in boosts or empowerment to get to the same level. It's cheaper to simply buy the older mage (especially if you can reduce or remove the aging problem).

They can solve their age problems with magic. As already mentioned, there are a couple of spells and items which negate or reduce aging. You simply need to give them the order to do so

On the subject, does Regeneration affect aging at all?
It would seem logical to me that a mage with regeneration would have a longer lifespan and much less chance of injury than one without...

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I think it does. Though max age isnt affected.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I'd actually expect Regeneration to severely decrease lifespan, the whole idea of regeneration is natural healing, and to heal that fast, that mage would need uber-fast metabolism, which is a sure-fire recipe for dying of old-age at 20.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Thing is, a fast metabolism tends to kill you through wear and tear on the cardio-vascular system. Since you do have a quicker cellular healing rater, your more likely to die suddenly than suffer afflictions from aging.
Mind you, in the world of dominions it doesn't have to be a fast metabolism providing the healing. Maybe the wizard has fell into a healing spring, or discovered the fabled philosopher's stone. He could have had some kind of magical skin graft or blood transfusion from a naturally regenerating creature. It could even be due to the favour of his God http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I just checked it out and each point of nature magic adds half of your baseOld to your Old. A elegant way to test this is to pick a pretender with nature and look at it on the next screen (that lists magic, dominion, awaking...).

Each point of Fire subtracts 5 from Old if Old => 200 and subtracts 2 if Old = 50. The only test case I found 50>x>200 was the Golden Naga (334) whose f2 gave her 69. I didn't check the <50 case.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I played a game with Growth 2 and a game with Growth 0, and the growth scales make a really noticeable difference Old Age afflictions. I don't know what the math behind it all is, but it's a pretty big help.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Not so sure about growth. Recently played MA Abysia, and at first late winter turn 6 of my 8 eligible units for old age get diseased, altough I've taken growth 2.

I for one like to see the age system toned down a bit : I've quit playing abysia for the moment, as they have really big aging problems.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

If the chance for getting the dreaded "disease" affliction was tuned down, I wouldn't mind the new Age system. As it is now, I'm struggling to keep my precious old human mages alive with a lot of nations.

Maybe an option to turn the Aging system to easy, standard or severe before starting a game would be a nice feature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Abysia has easy access to Boots of Youth, and can forge blood boosters so that all of its old warlock can cast rejuvinate on themselves (by forging a few boosters and passing them around), so the only ones that are in some trouble are the Anathemat(sp?) Dragons.
This would make you invest quite a bit in blood, but I think its worth it.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I think old age should be toned down a bit. I like the flavor it adds but as it currently is I avoid recruiting old aged mages unless I absolutely have to. I think that reducing the chance for getting the disease affliction and a adding a couple more counters to old age/afflictions from old age might do the trick.

Sadly, old age has affected Pythium (my favorite nation) quite badly. I'm not saying that I want to play it exactly as in dom-II, it ok that A.T.s suffer from old age, so long as it doesn't *drastically* reduce their life spans. The feature isn't bad, just needs adjustment imho.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I think that the affliction chance once old is not too high, it's having all the best mages or priests starting old that is annoying for some nations. Just imagine instead most of them starting 1-3 years before the old age limit... you would have a guarantee they won't become diseased 2 turns after recruitment, and old age would still be an important long term factor (and continue to have the same power for decay and BoT effects) but not one more random factor for short term.

Old age is a good idea I think, but once you have recruited your best priest as EA Ermor, appointed him as your prophet and seen him become deseased the next turn, you start to find the mechanic less fun. As well spending 250+gp on a mage to see him mute or feebleminded in the year is not the pinnacle of a game experience IMO.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

The only real question is whether or not the age is counted into price (in gold or gems) of the unit. Does a dottering Arco mage cost significantly less than an equivalent mage who is still young and spry?

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Except that for one thing, Boots of Youth aren't available until Const-6 : an awful lot of mages can have gotten diseased, feebleminded, mute, and dead before then, and having to refrain from recruiting 4/5 of the national mages until then is crazy. For another thing, yes Abysia is a blood nation - but having to outfit 4/5 of their mages with an item that costs 10 blood slaves also sucks, considering that those slaves could've gone into summonings.

I mean, when even your _weakest_ mages start with old age, there's something wrong imo. Pretty damn hard to research to blood-6 or construction-6 when the mages you'd want to use as researchers are dying or getting feebleminded on you, _consistently_. Demonbreds are a little pricey for research use, _and_ they're capitol only.

So, the aging system has ensured that I will never _EVER_ play Abysia, and possibly other nations. Wonderful bloody mechanic.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Abysia suffers way, way too heavily from aging, but as for blindness/muteness/feeblemindness I've seen those com from old age about, uh, five times. Total.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Actually, I was messing around with Abysia in a SP game. I recruited Warlocks almost exclusively, and was able to forge Boots of Youth for every single one, the only casualties of old age by the time I got everyone the boots were one dead warlock, and one that will soon die (diseased).
I suppose it won't work as well in an MP game, but I don't think the problem is as big as you make it out to be if I can do this.
(And no, I did not take any growth scale [nor death scale])

EDIT: Just to clarify - it was EA Abysia

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Wow, that's bad luck.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I've been playing Early Age Abysia in SP and have only had one of my Warlocks suffer from old-age caused Disease over the course of 60-odd turns. I slapped a ring of regen on him and am working up to Const 6 atm (after focusing on Evocation first for battle magic) to try to help rectify his situation. In the meantime he's still just as functional sitting in my labs as he was before so I'm not too worried.

I don't really see much of an issue with the Age system... I think alot of the bad experiences people have been getting have been flat out bad luck. As far as things in the multi-player venue, it's one of the many balancing factors between various nations. Almost everyone is affected by old age so it's just another part of the overarching system of afflictions and other issues that are either ignored or overcome through invested effort.



Resok

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Hello.

I've registered to say that the only thing that keeps me from buying Dominions 3 is the aging feature.

I'm going to continue with Dominions 2 until it can be disabled with patch/mod/hack. I think it's good that it's available, but wish very much it was optional!

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Sry, you can't simply turn it off, its part of the balancing ...

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Yep, no more recruiting piles of sages in some far away province and forgetting about them. I think everyone who found a library did that as soon as they found it, so it's kind of nice in that regard. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Ah - the "balancing" that thinks that a Crone pretender, who starts 250 or so years into old age, and has no special abilities, is only worth 35 points less than the Great Sage or Master Druid, both of whom have at least semi-useful special abilities and 250 years or so before they get to old age. Or that balances Crone pretenders as being 55 points less than Frost Father or Great Enchantress, both of whom start with _two_ paths, and _good_ special abilities.

Oh yes, aging is helping _so_ much with balance. *mutter growl spit*

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I really like the inclusion of an aging system. I'm sure there will be tweaks to it since this is the first implementation.

As someone who favors *long* SP games, I hope for moddability (to raise the onset of old age for some units as I see fit), or at least a more sophisticated implementation, such as:

Increasing the chance of random afflictions for units based on their "age level", so that units which are 52(50) have a very small chance to suffer from an affliction during their Late Winter Age Test, while a 75(50) (guessing because I am not sure what the age levels would be for a (50) unit) unit would have a significantly higher chance of picking up an affliction.

As it is right now, it feels like units which are barely into old age are dying off or just gaining more decrepitude than experience too soon. The penalties associated with age levels are already significant, so the chance for death/afflictions should perhaps be toned down.

As a sidenote, has anyone had unusual or comical results with older heroes like Bartolomeus?

I only have the demo, but to those who have tried long SP (or MP I suppose) games, does the Hall of Fame become a who's who of Pretenders and other long lived units even if those units haven't participated much in battles? (i.e. 0 kills, but they've been around forever)

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

HoF in my SP games tends to be filled with experienced, lethal battlefield commanders with either nasty magic, nasty ranged items (Spirit Helm for instance) or both.

Although, if you've researched spells like Murdering Winter or Flames from the Sky, mages which catch major armies can jump onto HoF pretty rapidly without leaving the lab. You do get experience just sitting there and researching, but it's not nearly as useful as killing a hundred or more units for HoF purposes.

Played through EA T'ien C'hi (had a couple of Celestial Masters die, but not too badly off with the nature magic... and I was spending more on archers and nobles anyway *shrug* -- trying a massed ground-pounder approach rather than a mobile, flying strat), MA Mictlan (some suffering with the High Priests of the Sun, until I broke the Lawgiver's rule and got a few blood hunters going and forged the rejuvenation boots... and I used more Priest Kings and Mesmerizing Turkeys, and later summoned mages), and LA R'lyeh (whose starspawn have LONG lifespans).

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I'm also curious about the interaction between Old Age (afflictions, and dying from it), and immortality. It seems that regular healing (arco priestesses) couldn't do anything for age-inflicted ailments, which makes me wonder if immortality will clear up ailments. If not, some of the ancient immortals (like TC's) are going to have minimal usefulness / fun factor.

Also, whether immortality will bring them back from the dead when dying from old age's ailments - there's already been one post that suggests that it currently won't, since an immortal dying from disease in friendly dominion didn't come back.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Last week I was doing some test with fever fetishes on immortal units. It looked like the diseased immortal units would die (when at 1hp) and then come back. If they were still diseased they would come back at 1hp and die again the next turn. Eventually they would lose the disease affliction and be restored at full hp.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I disagree. Based upon my experience aging is not as bad as not to recruit sages, (unless you took a Death scale perhaps). I still recruit them as much as I can, it is worth it even with old age.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Cool. Cleaning through death and rebirth. I like it.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Oh, I'm not saying don't use them. I'm saying you can't just set them to research and forget that they exist, you have to check on them once in a while and possibly recruit more when they start keeling over.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Oh, you stop recruiting sages?

And the diseased immortals sound like they have the same behavior as in Dom2. Doesn't really make sense for an immortal to accumulate penalties and afflictions from aging, though. (Unless it's the immortality as a curse theme, which doesn't really seem to fit the backstories of any of Dom3s immortals.)

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

This is the Aging Question and Answer thread about the mechanics. The Whining about Aging thread is here.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

I sometimes skip recruiting them depending on how broke I am, sure.

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Two of the T'ien C'hi immortals, at least, have rather high lifespans compared their starting ages.

The healer, for instance, has an Old Age threshold of 2000 years, IIRC, and might be younger than 1000 -- unless being caught by Decay after Decay, they're unlikely to age out. The swordsman has at least a couple hundred years to go, IIRC.

The one TC immortal with Old Age is the Master of the Iron Crutch, who's also somewhat less useful due to his lousy mobility (the other two can fly) and his leprosy and cursing auras.

(Hm. That's Early Era. It would be interesting if they had older starting ages in the Late Era, if they're the same heroes that is.)

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Did we ever find out one way or the other if the heal commnad (Arco priestess, mother of serpents) works on age caused afflictions?

Re: \"Old Age\" system in Dom3 - need some info
 

Yes we did and the answer is "no".