horror mark on pretender
 

Hi fellas,

My pretender got horror marked, and then got dead predictably. When I call him back to work, he's still got the horror mark.. which sucks because he's gonna randomly get dead all the time from now on, and he cannot be relied upon to survive to fight in a battle.

This sucks ;P If he didn't have the mark after he got called back (as I expected) then it would be ok, but even after he dies... thats harsh. It seems with that the only thing you need to do to permanently wreck a pretender is horror mark 'em and watch his magic skills dwindle.

There any sort of way around this at all?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Hahahahahaha... oh boy...


....ahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

=$=

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I hate you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Okay, it wouldn't be decent of me to have my fun and not contribute. One thing you can do is gain the capability to cast horror mark yourself, and make sure you cast it every battle in which your pretender participates. It means that when a horror arrives, there is a chance it will attack someone else. This is not a guarantee, but it is better than nothing. Another thing you ought to do is arm your commander with Luck and bodyguards, to help him/her survive in case a horror actually attacks you outside of battle (much rarer, but I think it's possible).

Yeah, horror mark is a wicked spell to cast on a pretender. As far as I know, the only way to get one is by being in a battle though, so all battle-oriented pretenders risk getting one. I suggest you share the fun with the enemy pretenders.

[Edit: Also consider having a retinue of magic-weapon wielding thugs or similar remain near your commander in the battle, as well. If a horror comes to get him/her, they might engage it.]

=$=

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

The Horror Seed ritual (Blood 9, b4s5, 20 slaves) can mark people in a distant province.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

There's also at least one magic site which can horror mark units or commanders in the same province.

There are a number of magic items which can horror mark the user, but that is -normally- avoidable, assuming nobody has enough time and resources to prepare an assassin for horror marking and then casting Return. :p

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

There are some problems with horrormark that will be adressed in the patch. You will not get rid of the marks, but they will be less likely to attract horrors and the doom horrors in particular. Other changes might also appear.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Like pretenders loseing a horror mark through dieing?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

More likely horror mark level getting reduced after dying

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Sounds good, will a really low horror mark vanish?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

The really low one is 1/10 percent I think, and it will not go away. It is still a targeter in battles.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

KO, you surely have your reasons, but unremovable HM seems a bit harsh, given how it's easy to give now and the "stacking" effect.
Pretenders that can not get out vs any nations that fields S1 mages in not fun, and I fear it will soon be that.
This does not look good to me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

It does seem strange that a HM would stick around after death...but maybe that's just me.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I'd say its definitely my preference that HM doesn't stick around after death, or at least cannot be lowered out of existence. Its just too annoying to deal with in long games. In short games you can deal with it, but in a long game it'll just be a nuisance the whole time.

In my mind, it'd make the experience more frustrating then fun.

--SD

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Id rather it (as KO said) have it reduced but not removed upon death. Aslong as a pretenders spirit survives (which it must to be called back) i would expect the horror mark to remain. It isnt quite as easy to stack as it could be since its s2 iirc and quickness no longer lets you double cast.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I would also like to see it get lowered when a pretender dies, but not completely removed. We can't have the Horrors become completely irrelevant like in Dom 1/2

Perhaps the early Horror Mark spell should be MR negates and later on there would be a spell that Horror Marks regardless of resistance? Hmmm...

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

That would be nice. Make a mr negates around research lvl 2-3 and an un-stoppable one around 5-7 (maybe unstoppable should be s3?)

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I fancy the stoppable one being around lvl 1 Thaum since it allows a possible early SC counter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

maybe make an easily stoppable s1 thaum1 horror mark, a stoppable s2 thaum 3-4 horror mark and an un-stoppable s3 thaum 6 horror mark?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I would also like to see an item which reduced horror marking, but did not remove it (maybe as a chance per turn, or as a flat amount). I wouldn't want to have to suicide my god to lower horror marking.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

If horror marking or cursing doesn't make you seriously question whether you want your pretender fighting a particular battle or not because of the consequences, then it is powerful enough. If they can be mostly ignored, as horror mark was in previous versions of Dominions, then the spell might as well not be cast. It should be a dangerous effect, and it should be unremovable so that you have to deal with the effects.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

If a Thaumaturgy 1 spell that any S2 mage can cast can render a Pretender permanently useless, that seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Why should a regular mage with an easy to learn spell, be capable of that.

If the intent is to make SCs shortlived against any nation with Astral, then it seems to have worked.

If Horror Mark spamming becomes the default way of dealing with SCs then it's probably overpowered.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Ok, if it is meant to be a big nasty dangerous spell, but in this case it shouldn't be a lowly Thau1, S2, fat20 (!) cantrip... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
It isn't fun for me to envision a pretender cowering against a group of Sages (with 1 pearl each) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Personally I prefer strong effects you can remove at big cost over unremovable effects that have a 0,0001 random chance to trigger a total defeat. I support ways to do anything by magic, including rituals to remove horror marks, diseases, curses, etc... But I also would like to see horrors strike more often.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

An astral or blood artifact that had a chance of

* counting the total horror mark strength within the province
* doubling it, and using a certain min threshold if otherwise below
* randomly redistributing that strength on units within the province, biased somewhat towards those that were already horror-marked

would be suitably perverse and dangerous. :p

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I would make it both astral and blood, also aswell as targeting those already marked it would have a slightly higher chance of hitting some-one with astral magic.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Perhaps an early Astral/Blood spell that is a surefire way to horror mark someone AND a magic resistable early Thaum spell + surefire later Thaum spell? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

What about an Astral/Blood spell that transfers all horror marks from the target to the caster? (do I use my expensive Astral/Blood mage to save my pretender?)

Maybe with an increased chance of either getting attacked by horrors during the ritual?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Regardless of the magical psuedoscience behind horror mark, it does permanently make SC pretenders worthless, and its cheap and easy to cast. This is wrong in my opinion -- the spell horror mark doesn't even require any gems to cast, its so low that just about any dippy mage could cast it in short order..

I'm with Twan and thejeff here.

--SD

Edit: Also that sometimes games can run -very- long makes anything permanent to a pretender extremely powerful, and rather annoying.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Could somebody post the stats of the horrors that attack your pretender?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

My poor fellas got attacked by the Eater of the Gods, which pretty much got him in one hit, on the second turn (he wasted the last turn of his life casting "Mass Flight" -- this guy interupted my storming of a castle).

He wasn't -quite- a SC, didn't have quite the hit points but was very close, close enough no regular swarm of units could have a hope of killing him -- especially with such nicities as the sword of many colours, att and def of 24, mr of 20, 3 attacks and spells, etc.

--SD

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I think that ease of horror mark casting has some merits. If the pretender is bold enough to lead his troops in the battle he should be able to deal with horrors (at least pretender god scared of horrors doesn't seem thematic). But pretender following his battle plans when attacked by horror really hurts. He should be able to realize that his plans were for leading troops into the battle, not fighting horror one-on-one. I would like to see optional scripts, so one can be assigned for scheduled battle and another for duels (vs horrors, assasins etc). Unfortunately, it's probably difficult to implement. But even the ability to tell the pretender (or any commander) not to follow script in case of duels and use his judgement instead would be very nice.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Well, I actually managed to defeated the Eater of the Gods the second time he came, (ring of warning has it uses), but shortly later a Hunter of Heroes came. My pathetic guard fled after a few turns and then the hunter killed my pretender in one hit -- if you look at the Hunter of Heroes attacks, he has one that just kills it one hit always. So, no matter who your god was he would almost certainly die against this creature nearly instantly. I ended up just throwing in the towel.

Horror Mark shouldn't be permanent on pretenders after death. In my Humble Opinion, thats stupid and extremely frusterating and annoying for no reason.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Why don't you look at way to avoid geting your pretender horror marked? Having large summons that might get targetet instead of your pretender and such.

I do not think we should nerf horror mark and call it over powered before we have tried all possibilities.

It is nice to see that horror mark has become powerful,but I'm not certain that there is no way to counter it.

Horror mark should be powerful, as it sacrifies the option to do some use in the battle for the possibility of doing great harm later.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

This might be silly, but I got a nasty idea.

Would it be possible to enslave horrors with a horror marked pretender, equiped with say Tartarian chains? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Dont know how high the Horror MR is, but maybe it's too high.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Well, I seem to attract horror marks personally. I never actually -see- my fellas get horror marked, they just one day magically get one. This has happened to many of my pretenders over the years, and I've yet to see how it actually happens.

No one is getting close to them, they never go into battle without a pretty huge army to absorb spells and damage... I don't use any magic items that would get you horror marked... So I've no real knowledge of how my pretenders get the damn things in the first place. Unless there is some way of giving someone a horror mark from another province outside of battle (like seeking arrow, but with a horror mark). Beats me ;P Part of the reason I hate that damn thing so much.

Horror mark would be very powerful if it went away after you died from it, a near-guarantee that a pretender gets kacked is powerful, and I'm not sure why people seem to think otherwise. Any commander (I'm not sure what happens to regular units... I've never seen one of my regular units get munched by a horror before) that gets it is as good as dead -- certainly no non-pretender cmdr would make even to the end of the first turn against one, not against something like an Eater of the Gods or Hunter of Heroes. Now, a normal cmdr is out of the game once he is dead. But your pretender gets to be killed again and again and again. Its just lame. I'd be happy if I could at least mod it so horror mark goes away with death, for my own games at least.

--SD

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Maybe due to a magic item s/he was using? There's a few magic items that have a "small chance" of giving the wearer a horror mark, but not all of them mention it (explicitely or otherwise) in the in-game item description. I unwittingly got half my battery of researchers horror marked because I didn't realise lightless lanterns did that now (for lanterns it's mentioned in the manual, but doesn't even hint at it in the in-game text).

Though fwiw, I did have one non-pretender commander do nicely against horrors. A decked out golem SC (built mainly for fighting mass armies, oddly enough) who tore his way through three individual Hunter of Heroes, and one regular horror that summoned two more during the battle. I'm not sure if he lucked out against that insta-kill attack the Hunters get, or if being inanimate made it ineffective against him.

But yeah, for an effect as nasty, and most importantly permanent as that, it should maybe be a little trickier to research or cast.. or at least disappear on death.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

SalsaDoom, Do you have summons that are as large or larger then your pretender when you go to battle?

Perhaps your pretender is singled out as a large creature and horror marked. If I remember corretly horror mark has range 100 so there is no goood way to hide from it and there is a blood 9 spell to horror mark armies from a distance.

I would still like to see the stats of the horror.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Okay. Haven't done this in a while... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

See attachment for the horror. Spoilers! Beware!




Blood Vengeance is +2. Fear is +15. His weapons are all considered magical:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Consume Soul
dam: death, MR negates
Astral Fetters
dam: special
Astral Hooks (x2)
dam: -5 (but str added),
three attacks, Horror Mark
Life Drain (x2)
dam: 0 (str added), armor-piercing life-drain
Curse Luck:
dam: special, MR negates
AoE: 1</pre><hr />

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Okay, now *that* is a horror. D:

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Beware the S2 mage, who strides Dominions3 like death himself, killer of gods, hunter of the mighty, slayer of the powerful. All bow before the humble S2 mage, the most powerful creature in Dom3.

Lets hope balance is restored in the next patch/upgrade...

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

The meek and the Onmyo-Ji shall inherit the earth after Umor has eaten everything else.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I think it's too soon to consider it unbalanced. I've never had a problem with horror marked pretenders in any of my games yet.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

So who wants to make the "HorrorNerf" mod? Personally I can't wait to be attacked by one of these things http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Wouldn't a pretender with high MR, some nice items and a weapon like Flambeau (high damage, x3 against undead) be able to kill even the toughest Horrors pretty consistently?

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I tested it. MA, Pythium and Bandar Log, small map, both nations had awake Great Sage with dominion 2, Order 3 and Magic 3. There was only one province between the capitals. I took it, positioned 5 Gurus and few Bandar commanders there, and kept attacking with 5 Theurgs and some Emerald Guard commanders, or Lizard rider commanders. I had to leave the hydras and elephants out, because they were always targeted and nothing happened, but from turn 12 on there were nothing but commanders present on the battlefield. The first horror attack didn't happen before turn 17. At turn 24, the two nations had suffered perhaps 10 or so horror attacks altogether. There were perhaps ten or so commanders, total, that had been horror-marked, on both sides. Only two commanders equipped with Enchanted Swords were attacked; other defeated the Lesser Horror that attacked the Hydra he had as a bodyguard (the Hydra was one of those Horror Marked earlier), other died instantly.

However, while most of those attacks were made by Lesser Horrors, there was only one attack by a normal Horror, and many more attacks by unique Horrors. It seems to me that the unique horrors' attacks are a bit too common compared to attacks of normal Horrors. I got at least Eater of Dreams, Hunter of Heroes and Slave to Unreason.

Yes, a horde of S2 mages can take down a pretender. If it takes 5 turns for 5 Astral mages casting 5 Horror Marks each before routing to cause any Horror attacks at all... well, good luck for your plans to feed the enemy pretender to Umor. Especially if the enemy fields any Elephants or Hydras or Troglodytes or any other high-hp creatures.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

You are free to try. However, Horrors aren't undead, so Flambeau won't help. Elf Bane or Moon Sword could work wonders, as they are magical creatures. He'd need pretty high hp to survive the horror's attacks for a round. More importantly, a script and equipment that works against a horror might not be good against other targets, like mundane armies.

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I intend to, when I finally get the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Can horrors be enslaved, charmed or controlled (Alteration 6, since they are magical beings)? If so, you could make that horror mark work for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

I think the Doom Horrors will break free though. And at least in case of Kurgi bring misery to you even when you control them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: horror mark on pretender
 

Wished for Doom Horrors break free. I don't think they can be enslaved. They also have very high magic resistances.