Modder brainstorming session
 

Throw in some ideas, see what comes out.


- MOO - style deflector shields
Give a shield generator 10 shield pts, 10 crystalline shield boost. Every hit gets -10 damage taken off. (add 10 for each higher tech level) (moo used 1 pt, but this scales it up to match weapon damage)

- Massive engine tech changes:
-prop 1: standard engine I
-prop 2: Fuel-efficient engine I
-prop 3: Gas-guzzler high boost engine I
-prop 4,5,6 lev2 in above.

fuel-efficient engines would be 50% larger, but use 1 supplies per move (vs 10)
gas guzzlers would be 50% larger, give 2 movement points, but use ~30 supplies per move.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 16 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

If your going for MOO type shields, how about reflector shields, that bounce some of the energy back at the attacking enemy.

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Rules? What rules?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Throw in any ideas you can come up with!

I don't think SE4 has any way to reflect damage, but someone else might come up with something.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

how about modifying sensors to detect mines

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by evader:
how about modifying sensors to detect mines

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do-able. there are multiple sensor types available, we could give mines a specific cloaking ability and reserve the others for ships, change gravetic sensors to pick up the mines, and make them useless for ships (i.e. remove gravetic cloaking from cloaking components, or raise it to something over whatever the maximum mine cloak level would be)

how about a mod that fleshes out all the cloaking components to make that more of a game? i guess the AI would have a hard time with it...

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

SJ:
Can you explain the deflector shield idea a bit more, maybe with a combat example? It's been so long since I've played MOO that I've forgotten. It sounds highly interesting though.

I really like the different engine types idea also. Reminds me a lot of Stars! engines.

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How's my Programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Here we go! Let the ideas flow!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>give mines a specific cloaking ability and reserve the others for ships...the AI would have a hard time with it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, what kinds of things would each of the other cloak/sensor types do?

Psychic: master computer gives a max level cloak (any crew aboard go into cryo-hibernation for cloak, so they don't spew brainwaves http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)
- all cloaking devices should have psychic cloak lev 1, so you NEED the computer to hide.
temporal: an all-seeing, but much more expensive tech? How could it be realistically/believably stopped?
active/passive: how about active level "x" requires passive level "x-2" (to detect faint return signals) and/or long range sensor tech? Different cloaks could be stronger VS active or stronger VS passive.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Can you explain the deflector shield idea a bit more, maybe with a combat example? It's been so long since I've played MOO that I've forgotten. It sounds highly interesting though<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I only managed to play a quarter of a game of MOO original, but from what I gathered, the deflector shield reduced damage to your ship by x points per hit.

The crystalline effect will keep your shields always at 10 points, so every hit gets reduced by 10 points of damage!

shields start at 10, you get hit for 30. shields block 10, you take 20. crystalline boosts shields to a max of 10. repeat ad nauseum, or until deflector shield gen is hit http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

in moo: laser hits for (random 1,2,3 damage) 3 damage. Shield subtracts 1, you take 2 damage. repeat http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Ah, ok, much like what emissive armor is supposed to be like. Cool idea. Only problem I see is that once you do more than 10 points (or however many the component has), wouldn't the component be destroyed and no longer regenerate?

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How's my Programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

No, because it's not armor.

Phoenix-D

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

So, how about those cloaks & engine suggestions?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ah, ok, much like what emissive armor is supposed to be like. Cool idea. Only problem I see is that once you do more than 10 points (or however many the component has), wouldn't the component be destroyed and no longer regenerate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, but you see, the component is not armor, so it could survive many hits by hiding behind other components!
These things could replace shield generators in a low-tech-feel mod (b5 or similar).

Once the generator is hit, though, it would die like any other shield generator.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

heh. You could actually do little ablative deflector shields. Make them 1kT each. 1 pt shields with 1 pt crystal shield regen. =) Hard to actually take them out. Hard to repair though, too.

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How's my Programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

They'd be nasty little buggers if you got 150kT worth on a BC. You'd practically need a WMG to cut through it! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Add organic armor, and you're invincible to everything but shard cannons & null-space.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I like the idea of reflective shields.

I did that very modification to cloaking and sensors. In my tech set Cloaking goes up to level 8 tech. I added tech levels to all sensors to detect the higher level cloaks. Mines had to be modified so that they wouldnt be detected by the new higher level detection abilities of high tech sensors.

Detecting mine fields;
I added up to tech level 12 advanced military science to my game. Hyperoptics at the top level in my game will detect mine fields.

I also went through the AI races and modified the research files so that they will use the higher levels of cloaking and sensors. Although I have never actually determined if the AI uses the top level Hyperoptics to avoid mine fields.
If anyone is interested in seeing the mod I can send you the files.. or post them in them in the mod forum...if asked to.

As for new Ideas -
how about Weapon platform mounts using the same range and damage bonus as the station mounts - But dont include the bonus to hit.

Reduce the amount of population that can be carried in a cargo bay.

Advanced Stellar manipulation components
Smaller, cheaper and maybe self repair. This could Allow individual warships the capability to open and close warp points etc..

Add levels to existing tech to allow for miniturization of components.

Faster missiles

Get aaron to allow towing of ships with tractor beams on the strategic map and tactical combat.....



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Yeah, there's the rub, actually. There needs to be a hard limit of how much damage can be deflected. The restriction of One Per Vehicle would actually be appropriate for these. The higher the component level, the more damage it would be able to block, but you would only be able to have one per ship. Otherwise, you'd just be able to make a ship invincible.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

well, not really invincible.

If you had 500kT of ablative deflectors (1 shield, 1hp each), then:
-16 meson bLasters @ 30 damage reduces shields to 20.
-one meson bLaster cuts down shields, destroys 10 ablatives. Shields rise to 30.
-one meson bLaster cuts down shields
-one meson bLaster kills 30 ablativs, shield rises to 30.
-one meson bLaster cuts down shields.
-etc.

As long as that one bug has been fixed, so the damage getting through the shields must be greater than zero for the crystalline effect to work.


I would still suggest making the deflectors the size of normal shields, so you can add multiple gens, but you can't abuse the ability.
One-per-ship restrictions are good too.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Reduce the amount of population that can be carried in a cargo bay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is there a setting in settings.txt for that? I can't remember.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Advanced Stellar manipulation components Smaller, cheaper and maybe self repair. This could Allow individual warships the capability to open and close warp points etc..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>B5 jump drive anybody http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Actually, for that kind of thing, I took the map editor, and added a "hyperspace" system. for big maps, I link nine or so systems into a square, and the small sector squares of hyperspace map directly to the systems squares on the galaxy map! Add fifty wormholes to connect all the systems to their respective locations in hyperspace, and you've got a B5 universe! Add black hole effects to hyperspace, make it a level 5 nebula, and you get ships drifting off course in hyperspace, getting lost and dying, and no combat allowed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Add levels to existing tech to allow for miniturization of components.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like it. I'll have to write a program to read the file, duplicate every component, and reduce the price of the copy while increasing the tech requirements. It'll work great!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Get aaron to allow towing of ships with tractor beams on the strategic map and tactical combat.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ohh! ohh!
Idea! set tractor beams to allow targetting of friendlies. you can then catapult capture ships into the enemy force, or yank a crippled ship out of the way of enemy fire! (just like the defiant was saved in one episode)

BUT, even better, make a friendly-targeting only weapon that does negative damage to shields only!. You can boost an allied ship's shields, at the expense of your own supplies.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

How about in addition to normal engines, tactical engines that give extra combat moves but less strategic moves and vice versa.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How about in addition to normal engines, tactical engines that give extra combat moves but less strategic moves and vice versa.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Use the afterburner ability! yes! and perhaps we could give an engine a "-1" afterburner, so it gives 2 movement in strategic, but gives a total of zero in tactical!

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:

Quote:

How about in addition to normal engines, tactical engines that give extra combat moves but less strategic moves and vice versa.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Use the afterburner ability! yes! and perhaps we could give an engine a "-1" afterburner, so it gives 2 movement in strategic, but gives a total of zero in tactical!

wow, that would totally change the game. non-combat ships would be MUCH cheaper comparatively, as they would not need tac engines. so scouts and colony ships and transports would be able to be made for a much lower comparative price, but they would be dead in the water if intercepted. it would also mean that ships would have less capacity for weapons and such, unless the size of engines were reduced or capacity was increased

also, if tac engines and strategic engines both counted against the hull's engine limit, the limit would probably have to be raised. that means ships could either go for a balance, or have an incredible tac movement or an incredible strategic movement. this would be another big game changer, as people would build defensive interceptors to protect planets and long range high speed scouts to scout through systems.... Just like when we thought the U2 and later the SR71 were too high and fast to catch, but they got their clocks cleaned by super-sonic short-range mig interceptors!

I think this change is an excellent idea, and it would make things much harder to take, as local defenses would have higher powered ships than could be sent quickly over long distances.

ofcourse, if i remember, afterburners are a 1-component-per-ship-is-effective, and the ability may not even work on ships. just kicking some ideas about though.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Nice idea. I think the AI would have a tough time handling it though. I tried a few games with colonize home planet type and atmosphere restrictions, this is as close as you can get to the few and far between colonizable planets now. The AI did not fare so well.
Making colonies more expensive is a good idea, they are basically throwaways as you put it. If you only have 10 each becomes much more valuable. Again, I think the AI would have trouble with fewer colonies and it isn't very efficient in picking colony types but in a game with human opponents it should work real well.
If the number of systems limit is lifted I don't see why most of your ideas cannot be used.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Nitpick alert...Nitpick alert...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
Just like when we thought the U2 and later the SR71 were too high and fast to catch, but they got their clocks cleaned by super-sonic short-range mig interceptors!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Puke, the SR71 has never been caught by anything, and the U-2 wasn't cought by another aircraft. Gary Powers was shot down when the Soviet Air Defense sent up a BUNCH of surface to air missles. One managed to get close enough that when it exlploded it damaged his plane. (Of course the shotgun approach also knocked out at least one of the MIGS persuing him as well.)

Doesn't affect the point you were making. I just felt like being picky. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif
Geo

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

&gt;I think the AI would have a &gt;tough time handling it though.

That's what I thought. Economically it wouldn't be much different to the Neutrals, and the slower pace might help to hide some of the AI's research and design eccentricities. I think the main difficulty would be persuading it to defend its colonies adequately.


&gt;This is as close as you can get to the few &gt;and far between colonizable planets now.
...
&gt;If the number of systems limit is lifted I &gt;don't see why most of your ideas cannot be &gt;used.

Number of systems limit? OIC... well I think 255 systems might be enough. After all, if you had (say) 10 players and a few neutrals/ primitives, that's still &gt;25 systems each. Maybe you could have a few colonisable worlds every 4th or 5th system... that would be about a dozen worlds per empire before they had to start squabbling=-)

The map could be implemented by adjusting the systmtypes.txt file couldn't it? If not, maybe the map editor...

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I was thinking if the system limit was increased you could really get that "are we alone" feeling. Even with 255 systems I generally run into someone within 30-60 turns. What if you went 100's of turns before finding another race?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Like a lot of people, I dislike the way Phased Shields I are so much less effective than normal Shields V. Most of the ideas I've seen to fix this seem to involve rearranging the progression to make them alternate, e.g. normal I, phased I, normal II, phased II, but I don't like that, either. It seems to me that phased should be a major breakthrough that make normal shields obsolete.

I haven't tested this idea yet, but I think a better fix would be to make phased I equivalent to normal V, then increase from there. This has the advantage that you don't have to rewrite the AI research files for a new progression.

My current idea for the progression would be something like this:

Level shield pts. minerals radioactives
normal V 300 500 0 (no change)
phased I 300 450 50
phased II 375 500 100
phased III 450 550 150
phased IV 525 600 200
phased V 600 650 250

Do these numbers look reasonable?

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Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

For the solar sail/ no movement for ships problem, all we have to do is add a "1-per ship" really efficient engine.
It would give 1mp, use 1 supply point.

so it would be a navigational thruster, used to orient the spacecraft, like a rudder on a sailboat! Even the cheapest solar panel would give you unlimited range!

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I'm the opposite.
I would like to see even more differances in the regular and phased shields. I would like to see the ability "skips phased shields" added. Then you could create phased skipping weapons too, give a use for the Menson bLaster maybe. You would have to really know the enemy then!
IIRC there is a bug when shield type are mixed so that would have to be worked out to but then you could have 10 levels of each shield and additional variety. It would probably require a lot of AI adjustment though http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

To give a different opinion on the shield/phased shield debate.

Phased shields are a enhanced technology that takes time to ramp up. IT may do more than it's technolgy that it replaces but it may take additinal time to ramp up


Computer moniters - we have crt and lcd screens (taking it ot basics).

We have overlap of the two technologies.

LCD starts out displaying less than a same era crt screen even though it has a smaller foot print. As LCD tech improves you get more colors and resolution to bring it up to or surpass the CRT maintaining the smaller footprint that it has.

Meanwhild LCD is more expensive than CRT for the same size.

My opinion is that the larger problem is in the way the ai and the upgrade process thinks that phased shields I are better then Shield V when in only a few case that is so.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

As for shield tech, I was thinking of making four different categories, with widely differing requirements.

A basic tech shield would be:
"Particulate shielding"
requires Physics 1 to open.
medium sized generators, "phased" shields, weak strength, moderate self-regeneration.
The generators would trap a thick cloud of dust in magnetic fields, to protect the ship.

"Magnetic Shields"
Massive generators, sucking lots of supplies, little regeneration, moderate strength, normal protection. Basically a incredibly intense magnetic field deflects most particle beams on the subatomic level.

Next would be a
"Spacial Turbulence Shield"
requires Physics 2 or stellar manipulation 5 to open.
The generators create a standing gravitational wave at a certain distance from the ship, distorting & scattering beam weapons, and tearing physical objects into shreds of plasma.
Large generator size, heavy shielding, standard shield points, little to no regeneration.

With physics 3 and gravitational weapons,
you get a graviton shield tech area.
Smallish generators, providing good strength shielding, fast regen, and phased shields. Really expensive.

so, basically, you would have to decide whether to continue to develop the current technology to get a little more oomph out of 'em, or spend a bunch of research to get the beginning next-generation technology, which starts out weaker, but has more potential.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>normal V 300 500 0 (no change)
phased I 300 450 50
phased II 375 500 100
phased III 450 550 150
phased IV 525 600 200
phased V 600 650 250<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, 600 shields in your shield V is definitely way too much. Try having the advances slow down as the tech matures: ie.
N1: 75 (+75)
N2: 125 (+50)
N3: 160 (+35)
N4: 185 (+25)
N5: 200 (+15)
P1: 200 (+phasing)
P2: 260 (+60)
P3: 300 (+40)
P4: 320 (+20)
P5: 330 (+10)

This way, phased are still a breakthrough tech, giving your research into shields new life, but it dosen't go way beyond the original SE4 max shield strength.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Nitpick alert...Nitpick alert...

Sorry Puke, the SR71 has never been caught by anything, and the U-2 wasn't cought by another aircraft. Gary Powers was shot down when the Soviet Air Defense sent up a BUNCH of surface to air missles. One managed to get close enough that when it exlploded it damaged his plane. (Of course the shotgun approach also knocked out at least one of the MIGS persuing him as well.)

Doesn't affect the point you were making. I just felt like being picky. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif
Geo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


thank you for clarifying, i need to study up on my cold war facts it seems. i distinctly recal MIGs taking down one of our high altitude planes, it was part of how we came to realize the value of short range high speed planes. at least thats how the Version i read was selling the story. not sure which incident it was though, or with what aircraft.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
I'm the opposite.
I would like to see even more differances in the regular and phased shields. I would like to see the ability "skips phased shields" added. Then you could create phased skipping weapons too, give a use for the Menson bLaster maybe. You would have to really know the enemy then!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the only shield-skipping weapon that's affected by phased shields is the phased-polaron beam. ISTR that Null-Space Weapons and Temporal Shifters will ignore phased shields as well as normal shields...

Or are you suggesting a "Reverse-Phased-Polaron" type weapon that is stopped by normal shields but passes through phased shields?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Yes, I would like to see phased shield skipping weapons. Weapons that skipped specific armor would be neat also. That way you would have an even harder time building a killer ship. You could have specialized attack ships that work great against certain weapons but are vunerable to the wrong ones.
Don't guess wrong http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

That sounds like something that was kicked around a while ago...

-Give the weapons arbitrary damage types, from a damagetype.txt file.
-Give the defences arbitrary defence types too, from defencetypes.txt file.
-Every entry in damage types goes like the following:
Name := fire
Defence name 1 := normal shield
Defence effect 1 := block
Defence amount 1 := 100%
Defence name 2 := asbestos armor
defence effect 2 := changedamage
defence amount 2 := 50% (reduces damage by half before it hits this or any other components)
defence name 3 := flammable internals
defence effect 3 := block
defence amount 3 := 500% (hurts component 5x normal)
...etc...

you could make up as many defence types as you like, and have each one block, changedamage, be skipped, by each damage type individually!

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For the "solar sails without ship engines" thing, I've just made two different Sails. one normal, and one with "built in steering thrusters".

The steering thruster Version will cost a little more (50/0/50), and will provide one standard movement, and have one less bonus movement to compensate.
IE. SS3, thruster Version has: 1 standard, 2 bonus.

BTW, this has been tested and WORKS!!!
Just use the standard sail for engine ships, cause the solo Version uses up an engine slot.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How about in addition to normal engines, tactical engines that give extra combat moves but less strategic moves and vice versa.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Use the afterburner ability! yes! and perhaps we could give an engine a "-1" afterburner, so it gives 2 movement in strategic, but gives a total of zero in tactical!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reality attack. -ve afterburner stuff dosen't reduce combat speed.
Just remembered I may have forgotten a small detail... will update this after I check...
Crap. Its true. -ve afterburners change to zero effect.

Anybody have ideas on how to fake our way around this?

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

You would definately have to make choices. Since the bonus moves on the standard engines require you to use all of the same type of engines the choices could get hard.
I think it will need a lot of tuning though or else we could have ships with 15 tactical moves or 25 strategic moves.
Now if MM would only expand on the AI ship building routine to allow specific types of ships to be built and add the Fleet composition file someone suggested we could have a really deadly AI!

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Space is big,
Space is dark,
It's hard to find,
A place to park.

While the above statement is undeniably true,
The universe currently simulated by Space Empires is very small and crowded. Within a few dozen turns, most systems have been colonised and explored, and all the empires are sitting in each others' laps.

How about a mod which creates a more "empty" universe? A universe where meeting another empire does not mean you will be squabbling over one another's home systems within a year. I'm thinking more Alien than Star Wars, more Red Dwarf than Trek, more Dark Star than Bab5.

Here's an idea of how to go about it:

First, the map generator files would have to be modded to make colonisable planets/ systems rarer and farther apart. This would increase their value and force players to look beyond their home systems.
Huge maps with fewer empires would also help.

Now, make colony ships and components far bigger and more expensive. I'm thinking maybe 800-1000 kt, with a 700-900 kt colony component and harsh combat modifiers.

Cargo components for smaller ships should be of limited use, forcing players to use large ships for any serious cargo movment. Adjust supply usage/ storage so that long range travel is really expensive for large ships. Different engines for different ship sizes maybe. (This could fit in nicely with that combat/game movement suggestion a few Posts down.)

Setting up a new colony would now be a *major* investment (and hence a *major* risk)- especially in another system.

New colonies would also be much more vulnerable. This is good, after all it's a long way home. Facilities should take longer to build, so that a new colony does not establish itself and become independent of external defence/ support too quickly.
Each player might only have a few dozen colonies throughout the entire game.

The supply restrictions on bigger ships and cargo restrictions on smaller ones would limit the expansion of infrastructure, so
military domination would then revolve around the strategic placement of fleets, mines, sats, space stations and colonies rather than simply racing to develop the bigger production base and throw ships at the enemy.

Fleets of small ships would be able to roam from system to system and rule over frontier space. However they would be more or less powerless against the defences of established systems. Attacking an enemy system would be an enormous projct.


Remote mining would play a greater role, as would moons, storms and nebulae. Physical warfare would become the Last resort when diplomacy and intel fail, although having good defences around your home systems would be more important than ever.

Some of S_J's mods (ie hardened bulkheads, cheap/ quality mounts) would make good additions since they make ships more individual. Phoenix-D's primitives (still in development, I believe) would also be good here, since their isolation would give them more bargaining power and more effective defences.

It would make for a much slower and more deliberate game, since ships and planets would no longer be "throwaway" items. Combat would be rarer but when it happened it would be truly epic, with loads of allied empires in gigantic battles.

I don't know how the AI would cope with all this but it would be cool for human players - a whole new game with a whole new feel.

Thoughts?

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Couldn't you create a tactical engine that had no strategic move? You could mix them with the ion engines for your defense fleets.
How about just making another Version of the top two levels of engines? The alternative models would give one standard and one combat move and one standard and two combat moves.
Is there a maximum on the number of combat moves? 9 is the most I have seen and that was on a fighter.

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 18 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I have used thrusters from fighters afterburners to give my bases limited movement during combat only.

No reason that you could not remove totally all startegic movement from fighters and just have them only be able to operate in that sector they are dropped. Thus making them more reliant on carriers.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Do the afterburners work on bases? I tried giving a movement ability to the base vehicle and that didn't work.
How did you modify the component or did you give the ability to another component?
I agree with you about the fighters, no strategic moves really makes you use fighters as intended, local defense.
I think I may give modding a try and do some work on the fighters, they are already screwed up with the to hit plus and minus bonuses that I guess I can't hurt them.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I know, but he wanted Ideas, so I thru one out. Here's another:

If you feel (as I do) that fighters shouldn't be able to just sit indefinately on a WP (how would you like sitting in a cramped cockpit for months on end!), just make the fighter lifesupport use supplies! I am also toying with the idea of making ALL life support use supplies, although not much.

And just out of curiosity (although changing this would affect game balance to much IMO), why is it that a Light carrier @ 800kt (AND lots of pilots to support) needs only 1 Lifesupport/crewquarters, while a Large Transport (consisting of mostly unmanned storage space) @ 900kt needs _3_ lifesupport/crew quarters?

WOW!!! can you say "run-on sentance"?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Understand.
Will the lifesupport use supplies every turn? If so that is a good alternative to modifying the fighter engines, although I know someone will find a work around, we're such devious buggers http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

For making tactical fighters change the fighter hulls to allow 1 engine max.
Only have 1 type of fighter engine for strategic move then a series of 'Tactical High power engines' which are effectively 3 or 4Kt afterburners with bonus tac move of 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Interceptor tac engine gives 9 move, takes 10kt or whatever.
This would allow for VERY fast reduced armament interceptors or heavy armed slow fighters....... Both of which would require a carrier to make significant strategic moves.
Adjust the supply cost so that a fully loaded heavy fighter can only carry enough supplies for 2 tactical engagements (30 moves + say 20 shots of an expensive weapon).

Giving bases movement on the strategic scale makes them count as ships as far as score is concerned.

The workaround for fighter resupply is the same as the workaround for resupplying ships: Build a dedicated supply frigate with either solar panels / quantuum generator or lots of supply storage and fleet them with the fighters (effectively a fighter tender rather than carrier)

[This message has been edited by jimbob55 (edited 18 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, I don't see any reason why Psychic sensors would ever be able to detect mines (after all, what brainwaves would they be picking up???)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Psychic tech involves more than just mindreading by telepathy. They could spot mines via clairvoyance or remote viewing.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Psychic tech involves more than just mindreading by telepathy. They could spot mines via clairvoyance or remote viewing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh oh. Bad direction here http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
We need some excuses for how to hide ships from psychics, but the psychic tech just gets more powerful! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

How about some sort of mental static generator, flooding space with psychic noise like in the end of the foundation series?

Should psychic sensors be population? Perhaps just a level 1 Psychic sensor could be added to the crew quarters of a psychic race, and higher levels require an amplifier or dedicated group of people.

-------------------------------------------
Speaking of population, I have 1kT troop hulls called "drop pods", and have Religious/Organic crossover 1kT component "Bio-engineered fanatic" that acts as a troop cockpit and has 5HP, and a 5 damage DUC built in.
I want to have a cheap "militia" unit to fit in the drop pod, which would be like throwing your population at the enemy force http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Problem is I don't want them to be used with the full size troops. The commando/fanatic looks OK as a pilot, but a militia piloting a tank dosen't seem right.
Any Ideas?

-----------------------------------------

As for the engines... any ideas on how to get strategic movement without tactical movement??

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Well, to hide from psychic sensors in my mod you need either a Spatial Cloaking device (only available to those with Spatial Mechanics) or a Psychic Shield (only available to Psycic tech... but CAN be stolen!)... a Distortion Cloak will block the lowest level psychic sensor. I allow psycic snsors to be the most powerful sensor, but they are one of the biggest/most expensive.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Oh, about afterburners (Combat movement)... you got one big problem with them, only the higest value is used... they DON'T add together (unless this was changed in the Last patch, but I don't think so)... so if you got 5 Tactical Engines each with a combat move of 2, you'll only get a combat speed of 2 NOT 10. Sorry for the bad news.

P.s. You should know that the ability used for solar sails can be added to other things, their are two values given for that ability, one is the speed bonus the other is a unique identifier... you only get the highest bonus from EACH identifier, thus you can make several componets with that ability and their effect can add together (but only 1 is effective for each type = identifier)

just a FYI

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

oh, one other thing... you don't have to lock yourself into using the ability given with solar-sails... just turn them into an engine, if you don't want the bonuses adding up the use the "one per vehicle" restriction. however they won't perform their old function (which is a good thing if you ask me, I've never understood why a solar-sail is so good at increasing the speed of dreadnoughts after they already have quantum engines propelling them). IMHO, solar sails should be used for SLOW low-maintaince auxillary or work-craft.

P.S IRL a new "solar sail" has been invented, it uses plasma to "inflate" a magnetic field to create a huge reflective bubble. The WORKING model is the size of a pickel jar and can create a sail 1/2 a square mile! The guy who invented it won a nobel peace prize. I read about this on NASA's site about 2 or 3 months ago. Makes you think huh?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

On a different topic...

Give mines varying levels of cloaking.

ie
Mines level1: low level of cloaking
Mines level2: medium level of cloaking
Mines level3: high level of cloaking


However, I don't see any reason why Psychic sensors would ever be able to detect mines (after all, what brainwaves would they be picking up???)

Or I may just be too sleepy to be thinking clearly....

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

You can change the mine cloaking, works good against humans. I don't think it would have any effect on the AI, it seems to like blowing up mines with ships!
Just change the cloak level on the level 1 & 2 to whatever you want.
I thought about adding a crude mine that was not cloaked at all, 2 kt 20 point warhead, but figured it would only benefit me so I never tried it.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Do you know what identifier numbers are allowed for the solar sail movement?
As far as the tactical engines are concerned, if the idea is in order to get more combat moves you have to give up strategic moves then make the combat movement generator an engine, then if you use it you will lose any extra movement bonus gained by using the same engine types.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

well the solar sail itself uses "1", all others are open... I would GUESS that you could go up to 255.

But you still got a problem with the engines, you make it an either or propositon... you can have fast ships that are slow in tactical or slow ships that are fast in tactical, but not fast/fast ships... so what's the point?