Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I'm sure you've all noticed that the brief synopsis of the messages that are shown on the start-of-turn message list are ... somewhat uninformative. So I thought I'd offer some specific suggestions of how they should be changed.

There was a battle in Ipriscia Change this to "We won a battle in Ipriscia"/"We lost a battle in Ipriscia" respectively, then tack on "No/few/some/large/massive casualties" at the end where the adjective depends on the per centage of the units lost. Few, < 5%, some, 5 - 10%, large 10-25%, massive >25%

Methone has cast auspex You don't say. Change to "Methone found no/2 sites in Ipriscia with auspex." Also, these events should have a "Go to province" button instead of their current "go to commander" button.

A sneaking enemy was discovered... [i]A sneaking enemy was defeated by/escaped from"

An unexpected event has occured in Olypha Unexpectedly, an ill omen was seen in Olypha.

There are of course a lot more messages that need improvement. The main point is that often much more information can be given in the same, or barely more, amount of text, so why not change them?

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I'm strongly against this suggestion. A big pleasure for me is the suspense and it would be gone with this change. Except if I'm sure to win, I always click on "View Battle" before opening the messages, I for sure don't want to know the result before.

I would even like to have an option to disable the messages like "your commander has found a magical item" and "a message from (AI nation)" (you have killed our god...) that may kill suspense in some cases.

I find the others ideas good.

PS : but I support more informations *inside* the battle messages : list of killed troops, killed commanders, a real battle report when you storm a castle, etc...

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I agree. Estimating casualties in a useful manner may be tricky, but otherwise all these changes look useful (especially (2)) and rather trivial.

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How about the ultimatly ambiguos we stormed the castle!

o really? what happened? who died, any of my commanders die?

..."we captured the fortress!"

I dont like watching every damned battle, especially when i have many commanders casting spells that take a long time (flying shards, fire flies etc) when they cast them every round. Some battles can take upwards of 10-15 minutes!

I think the change the messages for battles is a good one. "We defeated or we lost against so and so" would be nice.
...or maybe just make it so when you put your cursor over the message, it show the whole message in a pop-up box that goes away when you move your mouse again.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

If you make uses of the 'n' and 'f' keys, very few battles will take that long. (N especially - skippind ahead 1 turn really speeds things up.)

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I'm also against the "We won a battle / We lost a battle" suggestion. I like it being a surprise as I watch the battle unfold. The rest are so-so, not for or against them.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I support all of the original suggestions and also the "We stormed the fortress" addition. I sometimes send so many commanders to storm a castle that I can't remember after it's done who is missing. A list of commander casualties - at the least - would be helpful.

Assassination attempts should also be either (succeeded/failed). A lot of you are quoting suspense, but really, in a big game, single player, I should just have to scan the headlines to get an idea of where I stand.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Uh... wow. I guess now we all know who's in charge around here lol. But seriously, I haven't seen someone so nonchalantly disregard the feelings of others since I was about 5 years old.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Hmm. Why should it not be an option in single player? I'm all about options, not necessarily forcing anything.

When I'm playing a large, single player game with something like 10-15 battles every turn, late in the game it becomes a bit tedious to watch every battle/assassination attempt. Those are my "feelings." Besides, aren't you disregarding the feelings of the original poster by disagreeing with him just as much as I am disregarding yours by disagreeing with you? And whose feelings matter more? Those that agree with you? You're right, I guess we do know who's in charge around here. I'll clear my opinions with you from now on before I post them.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

He's not disregarding your feelings. Sometimes we misunderstand things people post because it is hard to get a feel for what people are saying with just typed text.

I like alot of these suggestions. I think they could add a bit of flavor to the game and make the reports feel a bit more personal and involving. Would be fun if it were possible to open up modding to monthly events. This way we could choose to play with the old event messages or opt for modded ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Yeah, as a total noobie, I've gotta say, the messages could be greatly improved. I think the suggestions are pretty spot on and straightforward and I very much support them...and more informative messages don't prevent anyone from wathcing their battles. Not all of us like the suspense...

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I you don't like the suspense you can click on the messages. If you like the suspense you cannot avoid to see the titles. It's the only problem for me. As an option I've nothing against the first idea, as well as I'm all for more informations *inside* the messages.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I could do without the "suspense" of knowing whether or not my third of twelve Dark Knowledges was successful.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Of course we're disregarding feelings of others. There can be only one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I don't think it was meant as an attack or anything. Lighten up.

I too would like more of a breakdown on which troops survived. And these are good suggestions.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

What I want is to be able to get a quick overview of how the turn went, and suspense be damned. To me, Dominions has never been a game of suspense in the first place. To me it's a strategy game, and I want information, not suspense.

It really is an either/or choice here. Either a quick, easy overview of information, or suspens. We can't have both; and my vote goes towards information.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I'd prefer to see more for everything except battles. I'm not sure about battles, but there's no suspence in "A mage has cast X to look for site of Y - did he find anything?". The suspense in most cases comes from "A forest, and a mountain, the mountain one was at Death 3 when I conquered it, and it didn't have that high dominion then, but there's a Library there already." or from when the target province for a spell was chosen.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I think there is a consensus on this one.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

There is.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

All good, except battle: I like the suspense too!

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I don't like checking if it was the Storm General or my pretender god who kicked the bucket.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

The battle summary needs to provide more information. Ideally, it would tell you which of your and the enemies commanders was killed, as well as how many of each type of troops you lost.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

125% Agreed.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

magic sites
I suggest keeping the go to commander and adding a command to view site/s which would have the effect like clicking on the magic site in the main view.

summons
cut out messages altogether that tell me about non-commander summons - I don't need to be told that my summons were successful. Keep messages about commander summons, and add a link to take me to the summoned commander.

battles
ideally there would be a choice between two modes: suspense and suspense-free, but that's a little clumsy. I suggest keeping suspense, but having in the title who attacked who. e.g. Marignon attacked Mictlan in Thing Woods. This would help me figure out which I really need to watch/find out more about, and which I don't really care about.

and overall stop truncation now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

This game is about battles. Battles are its focal point. If you've been playing Dominions for several years now then odds are you don't enjoy watching the battles play out because you've seen them so many times before, but for those of us who are new, we still enjoy the experience and would rather not have the outcome spoiled before we see it. That's why you will never see this suggestion realized, because you are sacrificing the enjoyment of others for your own gains. I think a compromised could be reached however so that clicking a message gives you more detailed information concerning whether the battle was won/lost, casualties for both sides, etc. The title could stay as it is, and those wanting information at a faster pace would still get that.

In regard to Stryke's post, I found his wording terribly put. One can have an opinion but one should also think about the values others place in a particular viewpoint and not totally disregard them. The original poster might not have considered the viewpoint of suspense when writing, because, being the original poster, nobody had responded yet. To me, it's just selfish and childish to say "those quoting suspense can shove it because *I* want my information given to me in a more timely fashion", which is what Stryke was saying. Well guess what buddy, the world does not revolve around you, and my enjoyment of this game has equal worth over yours when it comes to implementations that are unavoidable and affect both of us. Deal with it.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I still enjoy watching the battles, but in larger games it very quickly becomes a lengthy process to watch every battle. When you're at that stage it would be really, really helpful to be able to see at a glance which battles require further attention and which you can ignore.

Well, now, that's surely certainly up to Illwinter and not us mere mortals, no? My wish for clear information clashes with your wish for suspense -- but the reverse is equally true, so you are sacrificing my enjoyment just as much as I am yours. Neither side has the moral high grounds here.

I will argue in favour of what I like, and you will argue in favour of what you like, and eventually the people who make the game will decide.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

There's _no_ reason why there can't be more detailed information on the battles while maintaining a sense of suspense for those who want it.

Right now, you see "There was a battle in Cerne", and have a choice to read the summary of the battle, or view the battle.

Giving us _better_ information in that text summary wouldn't keep anyone from clicking "View Battle" to keep their sense of suspense, while allowing people to know which commanders & troops were killed.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

If you want to watch every battle and want to maintain a sense of "suspense", then don't click on the battle summary. The rest of us want proper information for our strategy game.

You might want to lose the attitude, since you're the one arguing the (always) incorrect position that a strategy game should hide information from the players.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I'd agree that battle summaries should have more information and something equivalent should exist for assassinations and the like.

I'd just prefer not to have the results shown on the message screen itself.
"Fred was the victim of an assassination attempt",
with "Fred defeated the assassin from Machaka" on the summary.

The information for each is available with a single click. Those who want suspense can watch the battles first.



I'd almost rather see the non-commander summons than the commander summons. I may not care about this turn's Vine Ogres, but I don't want to forget that I just summoned and Iron Dragon. The commanders will come up as I cycle through with 'n'. The troops could be overlooked.

Some better way to show site searches would be nice. Maybe only give messages for the successful ones?

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Oh, this is lovely. I've suddenly become the bad guy.

Leif, given that this is the way they've decided to design the game for every iteration of Dominions, I think my position is probably more concrete than yours in regard to Illwinter's thinking. I'm perfectly okay with the status quo, although I'm willing to compromise. It's you who is wanting to change things and is being exclusive of others.

Graeme Dice, I'm all for more information too. Sometimes even when I watch a battle I don't know the specifics of who got killed, etc. Can't you read? I think my position has been pretty clearly stated. I'm supporting a compromise between the two different groups: those who enjoy the suspense, and those wanting more information in a more timely manner. If clicking on a message and reading information is still too slow for you and Stryke then perhaps you need to be playing another game.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I think people misunderstand each other here:

The original poster suggested that the first line of a battle message should indicate who has won and who as lost. I do not like that, since it would spoil the suspense by gleaming on the message list.

However, I think no one here objects to having more information in the battle summary obtained by clicking on the battle message inside that list.

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Besides I think that suspense is also a reason why the message window opens first, so you do not see the map and hence do not know immediately which provinces were won and which ones were lost unless you click on the battle summaries or dissmiss the message window...
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Geez, these boards have turned hostile... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

It -is- a bit of a pain to run around to other boards, trumpeting how mature and intelligent our board is, and then come back to find three or four different threads where the level of discourse has, shall we say, become sub-par for what we're used to around here.

The internet is not a great medium for conversation. Subtext gets lost. Misunderstandings are common, even moreso than in day-to-day conversation where it's frequent to say the least. While not everyone can or will get along, it's not too difficult to remain civil and agree to disagree without resorting to name-calling or unnecessary aggravation.

Relax. It's just a game. Discussing it should maintain some of that in perspective. If we didn't have each other, who would we talk to about Dominions?

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I'm sorry for my contribution to the lowering of the discourse. I certainly didn't intend my first post to be anything but a vote for more info and my opinion. I didn't mean to demean anyone's position above and beyond disagreeing with it and I certainly don't feel my opinion is any more relevant (even less so compared to some of the folks on here with thousands of posts) than anyone else's. I wasn't thrilled by the personal attack on me in response to my post, but I understand how he took the intent of my post to be an attack on his beliefs (which it wasn't, and I'm sorry).

I agree with the new semi-consensus that more info when you click the headline would be great, for numerous types of messages, and one more I thought of, sorry if it was mentioned before, is to actually state what site was found when a site is found. For suspense purposes, if you don't want to click on the headline you can watch the battles first or do what you would like.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I'm glad that you've got a direct mental link to their brains and can determine exactly how they want the game to be. Back in the real world, we'd like to see things that need to be fixed, get fixed.

The nature of a compromise is that it leaves everybody unhappy with the result. Now, we can either please the tiny minority of people that like to be confused by their games, or we can please the majority of people who would rather their game not hide information from them.

I'm going to suggest that you go back and re-read my suggestion for what information should be presented, and my suggestion that people who are worried about losing "suspense" should simply not click on the message, since they apparently don't want to know a battle's result before the battle has finished.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

No, the reason the message window opens first is because that's standard behaviour for a message log. It contains the most important information needed to complete your next turn.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

If you can't take a little discourse, the internet is not the place to hang out! Give billions of nerds access to a medium that allows them to sling mud and throw a tantrum without getting punched in the face, and your gonna have millions upon millions of people QQ and angry.

Folks... Body language, spacing between individuals, eye contact or lack of, tone of voice, facing someone squarely... These things have more to do with conveying messages than the actual symbols (words) we use to tell a story or convey ideas.

On the internet we lose 90% of our ability to communicate because it is just written text. Try to think the best of what people are typing to you, because trust me, your going to run into someone eventually on the internet that is trying to get one over on ya!

That definetly did not happen in this thread.

As far as changing the messages, I still think it would be better as a player modded ability that we can toggle on and off.

Alot of people play this game like a database, wanting all the information presented in front of them so they can make their next move, just like chess. These people rule from a general's point of view.

Other people try to get absorbed into the game, they "care" about their prophet or that poor brave commander that fought so bravely all these years and now has several afflictions. These are the people I think suspenseful messaging would appeal too.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Stating something needs to be fixed implies that it is broken. If Illwinter thought the current system were broken, don't you think they would have "fixed" it by now? I don't have a direct link to their brains but I do have a little bit of common sense. Perhaps you should try exercising yours before you post something else.

Here's some advice: Don't bother applying for a position as ambassador for your country because you have very little knowledge about how negotiations work.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Yet another good thread with a good initial idea headed for Locksville.

Is there something in the water this month?

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Not necessarily. Illwinter is a "garage operation" and they've always had a tendency to work more on what they find interesting than on what's broken (which seems a pretty sensible approach for this type of game, really.) So that they haven't "fixed" something can mean that they don't think it's a problem, that they don't think it's important, that they've prioritised other stuff, that the code they'd have to change is particularly ugly and double-plus-un-fun or that they've been distracted with shinier, more rewarding aspects of making the game.

Besides, this is really a UI issue, and Illwinter's attention to those have always been a little haphazard.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Unless you are going to argue that Illwinter believes their game is perfect, then you have no idea whether they want the messages to behave in a certain way. However, even if they do want the messages to be uninformative, which is unlikely, it's the player's job to inform the developers of what changes are necessary.

Could we avoid silly analogies about international politics? Illwinter can either keep the messages as uninformative as they currently are, or they can listen to the dozens of people who have asked over the past several years for improved information to be presented in the message summary. The first case is supported by a few people who feel that strategy games present too much information and would rather be playing a RPG. The second case has been asked for constantly since Dominions I was released.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I don't think anyone doesn't want more information available.

There seems to be a consensus on more info in the battle summary screens. Is anybody actually upset that the main message page doesn't tell you who won the battle?

The debate is getting heated and the actual positions are inches apart.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

This thread is generating a lot more heat than light. Its become personal, which is hard to understand, but clearly against board rules. Unless the dicourse here gets back on topic, and becomes more civil, I'm going to have to lock it down.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I think it would be easy for illwinter to have a game setting that allows you to set how much of a message is shown in the main log area.

I think a changable setting is easiest and pleases everyone? Why does the issue have to be black and white?

I would like them to bring back the right-click-closes-current-window feature. Then I could very quickly scroll through the messages anyways.

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Let me guess - you're not studying diplomacy or pol science there, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I don't recall your first post that you refered to, but as one of the entities with thousands of posts here, I'd like to point out that quantity isn't quality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

To recap (and avoid lockdown city), the initial suggestions fundamentally were:

* CHANGE "There was a battle in Ipriscia" TO "We won a battle in Ipriscia"/"We lost a battle in Ipriscia" respectively
* CHANGE "Methone has cast auspex" TO "Methone found no/2 sites in Ipriscia with auspex."
* CHANGE "A sneaking enemy was discovered" TO "A sneaking enemy was defeated by/escaped from"
* CHANGE "An unexpected event has occured in Olypha" TO "Unexpectedly, an ill omen was seen in Olypha."

From a newbie's perspective, these suggestions seem spot on, and I could give a LOT more just from what I have seen in my games. I would dearly love more informative messages.

I think most people here are in agreement, no?

But, yes, there was a dispute. The controversy, as far as I can tell, is more about how much detail people want to see about the outcomes of battles. They don't want to lose the suspense of knowing how a battle went or watching the battle play out.

This could be solved, as suggested by the above post, by having a toggle.

Overall, it's hard for me to think of any situation where more accurate and more concise information is not desirable. And, from a newbie's perspective, I would REALLY like more informative messages. As it is, I have to hunt and peck to figure out what happened each turn, because I am still new to the game. But I doubt that is a desirable outcome, from a game design perspective. Why make people work hard for information?

I mean, it really seems like an easy and logical fix...almost as obvious as fixing some of the humorous english in the text...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

I would rarely see a situation where "We won/lost a battle" would be more useful than "There was a battle". If I don't already _know_ intuitively that I'd be in a massacre, those messages are useless without information about the casualties.

Since casualties would rarely if ever fit into the summary message, I see no benefit in changing the message - only in giving the follow-up message a lot better information.

That makes it rather different from many of the other messages, where a single line in the summary could often obviate any need to click for more information, unless you wanted to view "flavor" of further messages. Example being : "Wimpy Mage cast Wimpy Knowledge revealing X sites". 90% of the time you'd then _know_ you didn't need to click further, because it would say "revealing no magic sites".

Re: Suggestions for more informative messages
 

Yeah, if there´s gonna be a change would be useful in the search spells jus to "go to province" instead of "go to commander" will do.
The "you won a battle" and the such are unneeded because it kills the suspense.
And for the flames of graeme & kissblade it's Ok. I don´t mind the discussion I probably will gather the the encounters in a sepparate thread.