The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Built a ship class "Boarding Target", which had it's two crew quarters on the nose and tail. The boarding raid completed, and the ship transferred control, after the crew components were destroyed.

Since crew quarters are usually near the last thing to go, boarding is nerfed unless something changes.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Good testing. Elaborate please.

Interpeting from what you said, it appears that the directional damage is preventing boarding from working due to it only being able to attack crew quarters, but won't do any damage if there are any other internal components shielding them. Is that correct?

Also, it appears that only 1 crew quarters needs to be converted. I wonder if it is 1 or 50%, in your example, it isn't clear. Neither sounds as it should be. I wonder what would happen on a large ship with lots of crew quarters, especially if there are more than the minimum required.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Other things I tried:

I modded the boarding parties from 10 each to 1000 each, to see if it had to do with attack strength. The result was about the same: Attacker launches shuttle, they board, several moments go by.

The crew count stays at 100/100 the whole time, until the crew quarters are destroyed. At this point things happen rather fast; the crew count jumps, adding my crew to their crew. First test was 201/100(?), second test (with huge bording parties) was over two thousand/0.

Also, with multiple attackers sometimes the second shuttle will not land; it just buzzes around the target at point blank, as if there isn't room to land.

Maybe if crew were dispersed amongst the parts, instead of consolidated into one component. Will try that next.

Edit
I edited the Ion Engines to provide 10 crew each as an additional ability. As the ship took damage, crew counts xx/yy dropped from 180/180 down to 30/30 (last three engines). Ship wasn't taken, even though the boarded icon was present.

On one successful boarding, I went back (in the simulator) It had only one componant left: A bridge at 50% damage for all of 5 hit points.

Quarters
Put all crew quarters modules in front on the target ship. As soon as they were destroyed, the ship transferred ownership.

My Conclusion
Crew Combat module in SEV is not implemented; the boarding parties are supposed to be killing crew, but are not doing so.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Would it be possible to have the boarding parties reduce the crew count without destroying crew quarters? It seems to me if anything gets destroyed in the process it should be the bridge (as that is logically where the fighting would be since it is the control center). It could also focus on the aux. bridge since it is concievable that the aux bridge could be used to override bridge control. Of course, real boarding parties would probably not be equipped with weapons that would destroy the ship rooms they are fighting in...

"Sir, we've successfully captured the ship!"

"Great, but where did you go?"

"We're floating in space, sir -- 'bout 50 yards away from that gaping hole that used to be the crew quarters..."

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

In my testing, it wasn't the boarding parties that destroyed the crew quarters, it was firing on the ship from another vessel. The boarding parties didn't actually do anything, until after all the crew were killed. Then they took over the ship.

So yea, I'de also very much like to see boarding parties do some murd--um...I'de like them to reduce the crew count to zero without me shooting out the quarters with another ship.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Ah... Well I haven't been able to get boarding parties to do much good in the sims I've been running. Mostly I haven't actually run any sims to specifically test them, I just kinda assumed they worked. One thing I did notice was that they never actually managed to capture a ship. I assumed it was because my fighters were destroying everything before they could get in range. Now that I looked at it more closely it seems that the boarding units aren't actually doing anything at all. So that would be because there is still crew on the ship.

So you have to somehow kill all the crew without destroying the ship to get boarding to work then... Not sure if that qualifies as a bug, or a poorly planned feature. Seems to me that crew should only count as a very poor defending marine unit, and that actual boarding defense should be handled by the components dedicated to that. In other words, one space marine should be able to kill/replace 5 crew or somesuch.

Hmm... A system like that would allow for an interesting racial component: crew quarters with boarding defense. Would be appropriate for a race like Klingons. The crew could act like defending marines proper. But its not so great under the current system.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

If crew quarters are fubarring up the ship capture 'feature', take crew quarters out of the components list and double the tonnage for life support? I guess all vehicle size requirements would need to reflect crew quarters are no longer needed. Would that fix it? Or are crew implemented in some other way as to involve other game perameters?

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

It seems the key is to remove the crew from the game entirely. It's a workaround but not a very nice one. Hope it gets fixed soon.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Ok, well, let me ask my question in a different way. Will taking out crew quarters make boarding parties work? And will vehicle sizes need to be adjusted/changed to reflect their absence? Would making life support weigh 2x as much make up for not having crew quarters?

What's the answer here?

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

Taking out CQ will work. They are the problem- ships with Master Computers can be taken over successfully.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

It's my understanding that it's the crew itself that is the problem. If you take out just the crew quarters you can't build ships because you (and the AI's) have no way to give them crew. You have to modify all vehicles that require crew so that they won't require them anymore, so that you can build them without crew quarters. Then boarding parties should work.

Just building ships with master computers won't stop the AI's from doing it. You effectively have to remove crew from the game entirely. It's actually cleaner than just using master computers since it preserves at least some element of the gameplay formulae created by the difference between live crews and master computer ships.

Re: The Boarding Party snafu update
 

You can't just remove the crews I don't think, because if a ship doesn't have SOME sort of CQ (whether CQ or Master Computer) it'll suffer the Critical Damage effects described in the last patch.

Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

For the next test, I modded the Frigate hull to require 0 crew, and removed the crew quarters from my target ship. The ship appeared to behave normally, moving and shooting.

Question: Does the security team thingy work?

First run - Target had one security, Attacker had two Boarders. Successful, and the ship ended with 4/0 crew (started with 0/0).

Second run - Attacked with three boarders (11 soldiers each vs 11/security station) and won with a leftover 6 crew.

Third run - Target with two security stations, and couldn't defeat it. Even when attacking with ten boarding teams on one ship. Examining the ship after battle showed that one security station had 100% damage, but the other had 0% damage.

It's beginning to look to me like maybe there's a piece of code that should be in a loop, but is only being called once instead of once for every crew-ish thingy.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Huh?

Ok, so if we remove CQ from the ships, we then have to remove them from the vehicle requirements. And we can simply raise the Life support cost by 2 to compensate. But do the lack of CQ have a cost we dont know about? What about the above post that concerns critical damage of CQ are absent?

How many things are tied into CQ?

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

A ship without CQ components will behave the same as a ship which has had all its CQ components destroyed- it'll only move at half speed, its defense and attack modifers will be cut in half, it will NOT be able to cloak, etc.

Even if the design doesn't require CQ.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Yes, critical damage is affecting 0-crew ship.

I put twelve engines into a frigate with no quarters (0-crew mod), and in combat it only moved at a speed of 6. The attacker, also with twelve identical engines, moved at 12.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

All you have to do is add 1 point of CQ ability to the hull, then it will go full speed.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

EDIT: Correction (bad test run)The Master Computers are doing their thing; six engines = six speed.

Just tried a new test with Frigate hull that had no CQ and no Control requirement, plus the added ability of crew quarters 0. So far it acted like a critically injured ship.

EDIT:
Adding the one point of crew count to the hull did make it go full speed, but also made the ship invulnerable to boarding.

Really bizzare:
Just tried adding CQ ability(0) to a shield depleter, and it still didn't avoid the critical 1/2 speed. Maybe zero-crew is the cause of critical? Made Shield Depleter CQ(50) and it worked just like a crew quarters.

This leaves me with one more question: How come I can take over a ship with a Master Computer?

Summary of this test
If crew quarters are made with 0 crew capacity, ship goes critical
Master computers somehow manage to be 0 crew, but don't make the ship go critical
Ships with master computers can be boarded

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Adding the ability 'Master Computer' to a frigate hull made it fly normally (non-critical), and still allowed the boarding parties to take it over. Evidently the boarding parties don't have to destroy a master computer.

And since Toxic Injecters don't work anyway, one could abstract away the whole Bridge/Quarters/LifeSupport thing and simplify the vehiclesizes.txt at the same time.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Master computer explicity removes the bridge/lifesupport/crew quarters requirement for moving full speed.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

So will boarding capture work if vehicles are given 1 CQ ability so we can rid the component list of CQ's?

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Nope, it looks like you have to use a master computer ability instead.

In other words, the only way to make boarding parties work is to make all ships master computer ships.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Until the bug is fixed, you could work around it by limiting ships to a single crew quarters, but having small/medium/large/etc sized crew quarters.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

So...

Essentially what this means is that SEV is backwards!
Only ships with "master computer" status can be boarded (which is somewhat silly - should require a different component/weapon at the least) and ships with crews cannot
be boarded.

So why not just flip flop everything so that things make
sense? Use the "master computer" ability on crew quarters
and use "crew" on master computers. that way boarding parties will still work on crew quarters but not on master
computers.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Note: the manual states that Master Computers are not a protection against Boarding Parties. This is, apparently, by design.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

If you use the Master Computer ability on the crew quarters, the ship won't need a bridge or life support, and the Master Computer WILL need those two.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Hmm. Interesting. I'd like to know how a space marine is supposed to subvert a master computer with a cannon tho. It would probably make more sense to require a "Geek Squad" or something. Unless, of course, the master computer is sentient, and therefore subject to coercion.

Space Marine: Alrighty computer, do what I say or I start snipping wires!
Computer: Never! I'll never surrender to you, alien scum!
Space Marine: Okay, here goes! ***Snip Snip Crunch***
Computer: Oooh...that tickles! Is that all you've got?
Space Marine: ***Mumbles curses under breath and deposits large Blatto grenade on nearest rack of computer equipment***
Computer: Nah-nah-ne-nah-nah. Sticks and stones can break my bones but...
Loud explosion
Computer: AAAAAAGGHHH! You <bleep>! **Sullenly** Fine, I'll do what you want...just...just don't hurt me anymore!

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

I'd assume the marines have several techs with them for wiring in the appropriate racial controls and reconfiguring the life support to support them once their boarding armor runs out of air, and such. Temporarily bypassing the computer until they can reconfigure it to work for their side instead shouldn't be much harder.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Further test: Do Security and Boarding teams protect a ship?
Target ships using master computer.

one boarding party vs one security station - Boarding team won
six boarding parties vs two security stations - boarding failed; they only kill off 1 security station
six boarding parties vs one security AND one boarding party - boarding won, THEY KILL BOTH
one boarding party vs one security AND one boarding party - THEY STILL KILL BOTH

It was surprising to find that boarding parties did take out one of each component type (security station and boarding party). It was also surprising that just one boarding team could do so.

Looks like boarding is an automatic victory if only zero or one componant of each type exists, and an automatic failure if more than one (of either type) exists. Always fails if crew exist.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Daisy... Daisy...

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Lol, Geek Squads, hahaha...

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Did you run the simulation once for each instance? Maybe there is a random factor involved? I would run it at least 10 times for each factor involved.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Please post your results here when you get them done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Yes...and make it snappy! We aren't paying you all that money for nothing you know. :-)

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Hey I'm just saying it could just be a feature, if it isnt tested completely...one will never know...

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

Well its doubtful that its a feature, the numbers used indicate an obvious bug. If it's not a bug then its a horrible design decision. Either way, it needs to be fixed. If not to eliminate a bug, then to balance the gameplay.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

I keep wonder what was broke in SEIV, that something similar couldn't be used...must be something having to do with the crew units.

Re: Boarding parties vs Security Teams
 

I think the main difference is that SE4 didn't actually factor the number of crewmembers (or thier race) into the ship. SE5 does. Each ship has a number of crew, and a race for that crew. These are new factors in the boarding equation, and all new features in any game should be tested thoroughly to ensure proper implementation. This apparently did not happen to the degree that it should have, which leads us to where we are today.