Eater of the Dead
 

I recently noticed that the gem cost for eater of the dead has doubled... now 50 gems to summon while still needing 4 astral and 4 death.

Previously in DOM_2 this spell was not worth casting during games because not only were the magic paths difficult, but mainly the creature would turn independent upon reaching a very large size. I recall this blob also had low magic resistance.

So I'm wondering what has changed with this creature to make the cost double in price? Does anyone know?

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

No, he still have the default to turn independant and with the great increase in the number troops, he can be easely defeat.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

thanks for the update Tyrian

Based on the 50_gem cost of this summon and it's overall potential I would say it's the worst summon in the game and probably even the worst spell in the game.

==============
1) Can anyone think of a spell which is a worse??

2) Any recommendations on how the spell and/or creature should be changed??

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I think it would be cool if it was stealthy and would consume unburied corpses gaining more power each time and after eating so many it would go independant and attack it's current province. It would then be useful against nations with death scales that would have a big problem on their hands after a while.

Lame idea?

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Not worth 50 gems for something which might someday damage an unspecified enemy province.

Better to save your death gems and Ghost Ride the enemy into submission.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Even at 25 gems it isn't worth it. Too easily killed off. Compared to other summons, it just isn't worth it. Take Behemoth for example (in death), or Wyvern even (if you move on to air). You could spam Wyvern and overwhelm an Eater easily.

25 Fire gems could Forge an Incinerate wand and a Fireball wand. Two of each if you have a Hammer of Forge Lord or Global Forge enchantment. 4 of each if you have both. Much better use of resources....

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

DArk Skies has never exactly inspired fear in me ...

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Dark skies is actually pretty nice if you've got a strong dominion and you're fighting against guys with morale.
What's that? Your devils have militia-caliber morale? What? They're running away? Awwwww! Come back and fight!

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

That is a highly contested title, frankly it doesn't even come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gifDark skies is one of the most efficient defense spell (with correct dominion) or attack spell (with a strong dominions). The loss of morale can affect badly an army.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Considering that it's 50 astral gems for one creature with low magic resistance that turns independent once it's moderately strong and requires 4 astral and 4 death just to cast the spell definitely places it near the top of worst spells. The spell is not only difficult to cast, but the creature is not even worth 8 astral.

Based on your unstable statement... please enlighten us on the MANY spells you feel are greatly worse.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Could you replace all eater of the death forms by that of another creature. Perhaps change him into a big demonic dragon.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

It should be pretty much the biggest, most regenerative creature in the whole game. If they're going to keep the cost and the turns-indep mechanic it should pretty much start with the stats of its largest form and go up from there.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Give examples. They mightn't be that good at balancing, but I've found that they listen to well-argued points. More protection? More regeneration? Few life-draining attacks strong enough to kill most humans?

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

It's the risk associated with it.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Not according to the comments here.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Ok, if you like...

Lets start with Wrath of the Sea. 70 gems and I can tell you, I'd take an eater of the dead instead in all but the most unlikely circumstances.

Then there are spells like Hand of Dust, when was the last time you saw it cast, let alone accomplish anything?

Or there is poor Curse of Stones, easily negated weak effect that hits both you and the enemy, and even costs gems.

Or take a look at arcane domination, scarcely easier to cast than master enslave, but you could play 10000 games without running into a situation where it would be more advantageous to cast.

And good luck finding a situation to use Blood Heal or Pain Transfer, by the time you need it your blood slaves are long dead.

I could conceive of using the eater of the dead, in a situation without access to any other summons using astrals. Not to say it's not very weak for the cost though, I wholeheartedly agree it needs a boost.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Just checking, it turns independent. Like, once, right? Does it do that during a battle or afterwards?

Regardless, if you were to have say, an astral/death mage on hand to take control of it, wouldn't you keep it forever?

-Frank

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Thou shal not mock Hand of Dust for I have had a kitted ninja be killed by the Hand of Dust of an Attendant of the Dead.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Heh, yeah, assassinations are funny things... I have seen such things as Fists of Iron and Sleep Touch come through in on rare occations too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Still, such things are pretty rare (particularly for a specific spell) and are unlikely to have the same impact on a game as being able to spend astrals on eater of the dead vs. if you had no other astral summons.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I've actually used Fists of Iron as a combat spell back in Dom I. It was a riot with Earth 9 Cyclops casting it.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I agree. This spell may be not the worst, but it is extremely overpriced for what it does. Which is a pity, because the idea behind the spell is very cool IMHO.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Hand of dust doesn't cost any gems thus any gamer having to choose between casting hand of dust 4 times during a game or casting eater of the dead 4 times while still having access to other spells would wisely not waste the 200 astral gems to cast eater of the dead. So even tho hand of dust is not very useful it's definitely not worse.

Curse of stones... sure it hits both you and the enemy... its more of a spell for special situations. This spell is easier to cast and cost less gems. Not worse... not even close.

Arcane domination... just because an identical spell is better doesn't make this a bad spell. I'd rather cast two arcane dominations compared with wasting 50 gems on eater of the dead. Arcane domination is not good, but definitely not worse than eater of the dead!

Blood Heal or Pain Transfer... sure these spells have no real value, but again any gamer would rather cast any one of these spells three times compared with wasting 50 gems on one eater of the dead. Thus definitely not worse.

Wrath of the Sea is a bad spell, also near the top of worst spells I agree.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Ether Gate is 90 gems, but it's easier to cast (conjuration_6 instead of conjuration_8) and you recieve some very powerful magic units and a powerful commander with magic paths.
I will gladly send one of my Ether Gate armies(90_gems) against two of your eater of the deads(100_gems).
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Well it depends how you define worst spell. My definition was 'What spell would I least care if it were removed from my spell list?'. All the spells I mentioned, I would pretty much not care at all if every other player had access to them but me. Not having Eater of the Dead on the other hand, I would feel was an ever so slight disadvantaged, since I could conceive of lacking better methods of directly converting astral gems to military power.

So, yes, the battlefield spells don't hurt as much to try cast them, but on the other hand have even less reason to _want_ to.

I also don't think you fully comprehend Curse of Stones uselessness. With mr easily negates, only maybe 1 out of 10 of mr 10 troops is going to be effected by it. So, you have no prayer of effecting any significant units like pretenders, and versus a large army, a small percent of the army will tire slightly faster...

That sounds pretty weak, but it would be a huge step up from what it currently does, hitting _your_ army as well. In other words, you have a spell with a highly marginal effect, that destroys whatever tiny advantage it might have achieved, by hitting your army too. If it took no research, 1e and only 1 gem, I still would never cast it. I think the 'special situation' you are thinking of for it is the insanity of the player considering it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Curse of Stones is a good spell in conjunction with Flaming Arrows and a bunch of archers. Machaka is probably the best candidate for it. So what if it effects your guys too? If your shooting Flaming Arrows you kind of want everyone to stand around anyway, even your own guys.

It's not awful, not the greatest, but not awful.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

You do realize that it doesn't actually stop the units from moving, just adds to encumbrance? Flaming arrows is an extremely potent spell, I would advise trying it without the curse of stones and see how much difference you notice.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Each step costs an AP, and I thought that makes them move across the battlefield more slowly. Maybe it's just my imagination though.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Well as far as useless spells go I think we're all forgetting Raven's Feast. You pratically have to mass-pillage a capital province for it to return more death gems than you could get through alchemy. I guess it could have a use as Ashen Empire Ermor, but I killed around 10,000 people in a capital province and got only like 7 death gems back. And those dead bodies could have been an absolutely massive horde of soulless. It's a shame too because it could really have a lot of use in conjunction with the raiding spells of nature, you know, cast a spell at an undefended province, pillage and kill before the enemy armies can react, and gather up the dead bodies as death gems.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

This spell has my vote for worst spell ever. I would actually use Eater of the Dead to taunt someone or something. Plus the Dom III Eater of the Dead got a MR boost in dom III so it's not quite so weak to magic anymore. Not a great spell but heck it does beat Curse of Stone at least.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

That's a good point, it's a pretty unlikely occurance you would have the gems for eater of the dead and not ether gate. So that narrows it's margin of usefulness even further. I still rank the other spells as more useless, but not by a lot...

Oh, and yes, raven's feast at 5 gems is another excellent canidate.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Ravens feast should be moved as a level_1 spell where any level_2 air mage could cast with a cost of 3 air gems. Upon first reading ravens feast it sounds like a very useful spell.

Is it safe to say that "eater of the dead" is the worst summoning spell? Based on it's gem cost(50_astral), the difficulty casting the spell(4D/4S plus ConJ_8) and the creature which appears I would title "eater of the dead" as the worst summoning spell.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Personally I don't even find Aquatic summons like Kraken worth the mage time ... that and I know there's some more crappy summons running around. Onis come to mind. =)

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

This is a missed opportunity. Think of it.

A summons that becomes almost unstoppable then goes indy and has say a 60% chance to choose to attack your provinces. Leaving lifeless warped provinces in it's wake. Stopping it becomes your top priority but it is so useful that you summon it anyway.

A pain to program but it would be neat.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

It would have to become more powerful when it goes indy. Each province it eats should jack it's effect up. Till it starts destroying the provinces next to it. Gaining defences and attacks as it goes. Eventualy becoming a Indy pretender thug that has a chance to wipe out all life and unlife.

A new victory where the indy becomes God having laid waste to all others.

But a low level summons to start. Fraught with risk.

Can you see a multiplayer game with half a dozen of these eating the players in a unstoppable horror that could have been predicted and stopped if only the few had listened to reason.

I have read too much Lovecraft.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I should also mention that somewhere along the way it became a unique monster...

So even more reason to beef it up. This thing should give doom horrors a run for their money when it gets Unfettered.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

How about a insanity effect?

Non Holy commanders become useless in the provinces next to it at some point. You need blessed troops to go against it. Maybe protected mages.

A real nightmare that your normal troops run before. A worst case.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I think the Unfettered should have a global effect, madness, disease, ghoul attacks and plagues in all provinces, or something to that effect. Releasing it would be kind of like Wishing for Armageddon, or casting a spell like Utterdark. You could even extort people into giving you money or gems "or I'll release the Unfettered!". *manic evil laugh*

Kraken can be good since it's cheap in gems and packs a punch, in case you desperately need to get all the troops you can ASAP and there's nothing else researched. Not the best use of the mage's time if you have alternatives though.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I agree that the eater should get a huge boost. Since etherealness and high defence dont suit him he would need huge boosts in other stats so, for his final form how about this:
300 Health
30 Strength
20 Protection
15 Attack
5 Defence (a huge dead blob isnt exactly fast)
18 MR (otherwise he would be very easily killable, i would even consider raising it to the 20's)
30% Regen (for a total of 90 per turn!)
Recuperation
An AoE tentacle or 2, a few lifedrains and some sort of special attack.
Fear+15 (atleast)
Some sort of global effect

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

How about "Tentacle Rake" 3 attacks, armor piercing, 3 or 4 attacks with -6 str damage??

Another one would be it getting a Plague Cloud... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Or an ability decaying anyone who strikes him (banefire shield without the fire)

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

And/Or perhaps the Unfettered could spawn smaller Eaters of the Dead... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

How about he builds a type of "Void gate" in the province he kills. Then summons more of him and bizzare evils to guard him.Then when he has powered up and has a small army of summons he goes eating provinces.

Meanwhile One of him that he has summoned stays in the province summoning more evils till a second army is formed around him and he goes eating leaving a third him to repeat the process.

Any unit entering the "Gate" province has a bad chance of getting a affliction each turn until the gate is destroyed. Only a Mage with a special group of powerups or skills can destroy the gate with a high chance of death or being feebled.

If the gate is left alone it has a chance of spawning a new Eater and other evils every turn. Along with bad random events in surrounding provinces.

Damned if you attack and damned if you don't.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Sounds cool, albeit complicated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Yea, might be a real pain to program but sounds very nice (or should that be nasty?). Just make sure nothing he spawns can get quite as strong as him.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Spawning additional Eaters of the Dead should be doable already, I think, given that 'monsters spawn other monsters' (ex. Vampire Lords, Thralls) is possible.

A large leprosy cloud and strong Fear would be appropriate, given that it's probably not too hygienic to be around it.

If we were feeling silly and very Diablo-ish, we might suggest a high-damage corpse-vomit attack, but...

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I wonder if the Unfettered can move around on it's own...if it could, it could move around and spawn more of it's progeny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Would would become more than just bit of a MAD weapon... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

It can't, and it's not likely to be changed.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

I really love the idea and design behind this creature. It's just the creature is very weak compared to the 50 astral gems spent and the 4S & 4D needed for the summoning. I feel bad for any noobie player expecting to see a powerful unit and finds this lump of poop.

I like the idea of additional eaters being spawned. I know on the battlefield a unique artifact or a specific spell(life_after_death) allow killed units to appear as undead. Perhaps eventually the main summoned creature will be able to kill units on the battlefield which will reappear as baby blobs. The baby blobs can then grow and if they survive several battles they will eventually reach the size where they can create their own baby blobs.

Re: Eater of the Dead
 

Very nice Forrest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Final game message "The Eater of the Dead have claimed dominion over ocean, land and the sky. The eternal dusk have descened over the realm. All other beings who were struggling to ascend to godhood were killed and, well..., eaten."