SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Ok, first off I'm not trying to start a flame war or upset anyone. With that said I'm kinda tired of hearing about all the problems and what's wrong with the game. I can't recall any games recently that have been "totally" bug free. Here's the way I see it. Malfador has honestly given me something that I think is absolutely wonderful... a basic game engine that people can make into virtually anything they want. The strength in this game is that it IS so easily moddable. I can understand why some people are upset but I think that probably about 80% of the people on these forums feel the same way I do. Yes there are problems but given some time people like Kwok, Devnullicus and Atrocities will make some of the most awesome mods that will make this game great. I know I left alot of names off that list but those 3 made the mods and shipsets that made me keep se4 on my hard drive for about 4 years now. Just my two cents.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Agreed...and add SJ, Fryon and TG to the list.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I hear you, but I think the game DOES have problems, and those of us who bring them up are doing so because we care and want things to be better.

I sense a growing hostility here toward those of us who are not happy with the way SEV turned out. Some here are sick and tired of listening to us, and the clear message is to sing praise or keep quiet.

That, my friend, is part of the problem. I personally don't want to pay for a game engine that can be fixed by modders.

I want to pay for a complete game.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I find there's a split. Some players are happy because they get to mess around with SE:V now despite the bugs and those that think the game was release too early and are dissappointed. There's nothing wrong with either position, it's just a matter of preference.

I think the game was released too early considering the fact there are a lot of new players discovering the series and the current bugginess makes a very bad impression. Of course us long-time SE players have some comfort in knowing that the issues will be resolved - but new players don't have that comfort and that's bad for the series.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I agree that this is indeed a wonderful game and I know that with the on going support that Aaron has always demonstrated in regard to his games, this game will only continue to get better. Despite the bugs, this is indeed one *****'n game to say the least.

The neat thing about having the game out is that the people who play it are now reporting the bugs as they discover them. This can only help make the game better.

Was the game released to early, YES, yes it was. I say at least 8 to 12 more weeks were needed. However by releasing the game early, a ton of new bug reports have been generated by players. So in the end, releasing the game in the state that it was in was a good move for improving the game, but a bad move for those explecting a 100% bug free game on version 1.0. (Unrealistic in my opinion but hey they are out there, and they ***** like mad when things aren't bug free.)

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

If any one is making any one else uncomfortable because they are not happy with the way SE V turned out, then they need to step back a bit and recall how SE IV was when it was released back in 2000. I for one VALUE any post that is constructive in its feed back and points out lagitimate problems with the game. I mean how else are these problems going to be addressed if no one is willing to point them out?

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

lol look at a game like Battlefield 2142, they have a massive dev team and charge the full $50 for the game, had a massive public beta where they got tons of free testing, reusing the same engine that has powered their last 3 games, and they still have a massive ammount of bugs. Now there is a game no one should be buying.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Artaud said:
I sense a growing hostility here toward those of us who are not happy with the way SEV turned out. Some here are sick and tired of listening to us, and the clear message is to sing praise or keep quiet.

Huh? I haven't noticed any such message or hostility.

Sabrax said:
That, my friend, is part of the problem. I personally don't want to pay for a game engine that can be fixed by modders.

I think what he meant was it provides a good engine from which to build all sorts of mods, not that it is incomplete somehow (a bit unbalanced and buggy, yeah, but it has a lot of features in the stock game...).

Combat Wombat
Now there is a game (BF 1942) no one should be buying.

Not to mention the highly featured adware you have to agree to to install it...

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Oh I even forgot about the adware that watches what you do on the internet and gives you _IN GAME_ ads based on it, and they still charge you $50 which is outrageous for all the reasons listed above.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

This Forum has always been open for everyone's opinions, whether is was for, against, or whatever. To say one is tired of hearing complaints on a particular game is an unfair ascertaion to the meaning of this forum. Everyone here is entitled to their opinion. Thats what has made this forum a unique place among forums. We have no flame wars as we respect everyones opinions whether we agree or disagree. What better place to discuss the aspects of various games, the pros and the cons. There have been many discussions on a whole range of games as well as other topics within this forum. Everyone here has a right to put forth their opinion as long as the forum rules are observed. This forum encourages discussion among its members on games and other topics. Not everyone will agree or disagree on any one topic. That is our choice. Therefore, if one dislikes, is dissatified, loves, or becomes addicted to a game he/she has the right to express his/her opion without ridicule. No computer game is perfect, and on the same hand, some games are released to soon and still need work. Where better to discuss the problems, bugs and whatever then here on the forum where everyone is able to put forth their 2 cents. Which in turn can/is relayed to the designers of that particular game. after all, isn't the whole idea to make the game/s better, more playable, and fun for everyone? This can be accomplished by explaining bugs, problems, etc that are found by us the gamers in order to be delivered again to the designers. In addition, sometimes, what some consider to be bugs or flaws, after discussions here on the forum, are found to be just the opposite and have legitimate reasons for doing what they do, or one finds that they were using them wrong or not in the proper way. Without discussion of the pros and cons, some of these complaints would be unnecessarily sent to the designers which would take up constructive time from fixing the actual problems that were found.

This is my opinion and not intended to hurt anyones feelings but to put forth my impressions of what this forum is/has/was and continues to be, a free and constructive forum on all aspects of games and other topics where no one should be afraid to give their opions/feelings/likes/dislikes/ on the topics contained within.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

On a good note, Malfador updated the website, appearently they listened to all the bug reports and reviewed saved games send to them and are releasing a patch accordingly. It is expected on the 6th hopefully.

This is why I never worried about the buggyness of the game, timely patches!

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

WTH!!! This kind of thing should be stomped to death at inception. I WILL NEVER BUY A GAME that requires you to install adware so they can market content to me while I play their game based upon my on line activities. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!

No its worse than wrong, its upper case DEAD WRONG AND EVIL!

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I agree as well...yet I heard of the 50 or so beta testers...about half or more flaked out, which left the rest with a large workload. Plus it seems that most companies now are pre-releasing most game, in some form of public beta test, months before release, to squash bugs, balance game play, and test game engine, and any MP infrastrucure if need for said game. In many instances, Company of Heroes for instance, made the end release a much better game, not mention helped the hype of the game.

SEV could have used a bit more beta testing in my opinon, maybe a slightly large pool of testers other than the initial 50...Yet with MM track record of patching, and listening, and now that this is his so called full time job, he will be able to do it in a more timely fashion than SEIV. So I say play the game to death, find out whats wrong, and report it. The game will become better, and the mods will make it playable for many years to come. Much longer than some other games I've played in the past 6 years.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I think there is also a split along the modders/non-modders line. SEV was made for its modding abilty first and it's playability 2nd. At least it seems that way to me. I do mod some small items to suit for taste, but a whole mod takes hard work, time and dedication. If Kwok's Balance Mod wasn't ready to go, I think there would have been even more complaints.

The release imo should have waited a little longer, but its a trade-off. More bugs are getting squashed sooner.

But that doesn't solve the problems with a questionably designed UI. Hopefully this will be looked at when most of the game bugs are fixed and not forgotten about.

Someone in another post here or one of the other sites made a comment about (paraphrasing) in 5 or 6 years SEV will be at the point SEIV is. Problem is that's fine for the faithful not necessarily new customers.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

A false dichotamy. No game will ever be bug free, but that's no excuse for releasing games that are near unplayable.

As it happens, Aaron does have excuses and mitigating factors. Like being one man trying to single handedly produce a highly detailed turn based stratagy game. Balance, design, coding, it's all him. Other developers have departments for those things and they still aren't making games half has complex as SEV. The other mitigating factors are his manic patching, and the work that eventually gets produced by the modders.

You do have to question the wisdom of this approach, from a commerical point of view. The first few weeks after a game is released are the most critical. People aren't going to buy a game they hear is unplayable now, but don't worry after a few months or years there'll be all these patches and mods and then it'll be awesome! It's a shame, SEV deserves to do well and the TBS genre as a whole needs it to do well.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

The Beta Testers should have been choosen more carefully. It IS an important step in releasing a product. Many of these bugs could have been found in the playtesting and patched before release. These don't seem to be bugs that require a 'long' game to discover, but are 'in fact' some basic game operations that are flawed. While I don't agrue that the playtesters did a good job, maybe they just needed some modders and dedicated players to have been playtesting?

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I have. It's nothing I can put a finger on and say "Here's the hostility! Here's what we're talking about! Everyone look at this!" but I've felt it. I've seen little or no outright bashing of critics on the forums, but I have noticed that many criticisms are summarily ignored, yielding contempt and a growing split. Maybe that's why you haven't noticed it.

There certainly comes a time in debugging where you have part of the code bug free, and part buggy... when fixing bugs reaches diminishing returns and releasing the game (via public beta, full release, etc.) becomes more cost efficient. I think the only thing you can argue about here is where exactly that point of diminishing returns lies, and of course everyone has their own opinion.



For the sake of argument, we can divide the end users up into the moderately-fan-to-hardcore-forumgoer category and the new-or-non-forumgoer user. As a member of the former, I know that se5 has immense potential like se4 did. Contributions from people like Fyron, Kwok, SJ, AT, etc will provide enough options that most of us will be able to find a niche we like. I will eventually buy the game. Folks that fall under the latter category will likely read the reviews that were based on the initial buggy release and say no thanks. Unfortunately sites like cnet.com and ign don't go back periodically and update reviews based on patches and mods that come out a year after release. That would certainly help.

I think a public beta period *would have* helped if malfaydor was a large enough company to handle all the bug reports (this has been discussed on the forums before). This has almost all the benefits associated with a full release without the negative reviews that come with a buggy release. The alternative to a public beta is fewer bugs to begin with. Aaron managed neither. That's why we have this thread.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

90-95% of the currently reported bugs/flaws were reported - but unfortunately the release date came before most of these could be addressed.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Don't you think it could simply be that reasonable people will easily react and add comments to one opinion they agree with, while only read without answering to someone whose opinion they do not agree with.
They of course the result is a few post with negative opinion and few answers and more enthusiastic posts with many emotional answers.
It does not necessarily means contempt and ignoring.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Yep.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Yimboli said:
...many criticisms are summarily ignored...

Or, perhaps, they are agreed with, which is less likely to get a posted response than something disagreed with?

Captain Kwok said:
90-95% of the currently reported bugs/flaws were reported - but unfortunately the release date came before most of these could be addressed.

Though people need to keep in mind that there were a lot of bugs fixed and features rebuilt for playability purposes during the beta, so it's not like Aaron twiddled his thumbs or anything...

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I've never seen someone told that they should not give their opinion. I have seen people offer:

1. help with customizing the UI
2. Custom MODs available BEFORE the game was even official
3. Details about Malfador's patch policy, which is great.

Other than that, what help can be expected here from a bunch of guys here on a forum setup for FANS of the game? There are things that will be patched, things that can be modded (or customized, like the UI) and there is the core game, which is pretty much set in stone.

How much validation does someone need if, after all that help, they still dont' like the game? What is the board supposed to do? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I honestly did not mean that criticism should be squelched and everyone should sing the praises of se5. I will admit that it has problems. I intended NO hostility toward anyone at all but I do believe that most of the people who love this series do so primarily for the moddabily. The complainning I refered to primarily comes from people who have probably never played the series and jump in (and actually wasn't even on these boards). kwok brought up a good point that the problems do prevent the fanbase from growing to an extent because new players do get put off at first. So I apologize if anyone felt I was being harsh or rude. I know we've all seen a game we thought was ok just needing a little work SLAMMED in forums by people who just expected instant gratification.
Luckily these forums do tend to be open and everyone seems to be well spoken and polite. So to the new players and those put off by the game I would say...have a little patience and give it chance. It will grow on you.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

With all due respect Xrait, you were not involed in the beta testing therefore you have no knowledge as to what went on. So please keep your specultive derogatory, and that is the way I read it, comments regarding the "beta, or beta testers" private.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Not knowing how the play testing did go, does not matter. I see the end product! I had hoped, it would have turned out to be better. It appears as all the original purchasers are the testers! While I have no doubt that all the bugs will get fixed. I'm afraid that the game has already lost a good portion of sales due to the original release of a "bugged" game. Once you lose creditability, it’s hard to regain it.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

THIS FORUM is a very open minded, helpful and cooperative one. If this forum was the "Official Forum" it would be better, unfortunately the people new to the game are going to go to the official site. I know several of you visit the other site and help where you can but it may not be enough to really help sell the idea to wait for the patches and give the game a chance. REMEMBER what happened with moo3! admittedly it did not have the support this does but if the people do not know about the mods and other items this forum has that are not posted on the "official" one then the game may not be the success it has the potential to be.

I know way to wordy and roundabout but i have not slept lately. yawn. just my 2 cents worth.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

AT, My comment was based on this information. The modders and "Hard CORE" players would have made excellent testers. To those playtesters who stuck it out, 'Great Job!' They are not the ones I'm talking about. They are still here on this forum and still playing and modding. I meant we just could have used more of them and I still beleive that they should have been chosen better. To those who bailed, well enough said.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

could be! but I'm not the only one talking about a split.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Xrati said:
The modders and "Hard CORE" players would have made excellent testers.

2/3 of the testers are modders and "hard-core" players, though. They were chosen well. The only ones that were not explicitly chosen are the ones that won the lottery, or that got a slot from the Race to SEV tournament.

For the record, it was far less than half that "flaked out..." Really only a few. There were a few that had to stop testing due to real life reasons, but there is nothing shameful about that (or foreseeable).

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I have to agree with Fyron. There are over 11,000 posts in the beta forum in just over a year. This does not include the Chat sessions, Features DB, or emails to Aaron. The beta was officialy delayed once or twice do to RL issues but not for long. The beta testers were an exceptional bunch of dedicated people who spent a lot of their personal free time testing the game. Their efforts made the difference and if you were to ask Aaron about it, I am willing to bet my copy of SE V that he has nothing but good things to say about most of the beta testers.

I have been invovled in at least five beta tests now and by far this one has been the most productive of them all. Our suggestions and bug reports were acted upon by Aaron.

Aaron is only one man, and being steam rolled with bug reports, feature requests, suggestions, and other, does result in a more drawn out beta than if there were a team of programers working on the game. For one man, and a small beta test team, Aaron has done a wonderful job with SE V. The game will only continue to get better as the bug reports keep coming in. In a year I will bet we will all be very happy with this game and will even be discussing what we would like to see in an expansion pack.

This game has so much potential that it fills me with joy just thinking about it. And to actually make me fill optomisic enough to feel joy given the way my mind works, is truly a profound thing.

The more the bugs and dislikes about the game are reported in a constructive helpful manor, the better the game will ultimately become. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

The root of the problem is time. MM really needs a second person to handle things like game balance or documentation, so that Aaron can focus on the game engine rather than time-consuming tasks like manuals, tutorials, or balancing.

Is there enough money for this now? Is there someone at SFI that can work in this capacity? Does somebody want to pay me to do this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

"Oh I even forgot about the adware that watches what you do on the internet and gives you _IN GAME_ ads based on it, and they still charge you $50 which is outrageous for all the reasons listed above."

*Actually* this isn't true. There is no adware--- just a dirty rumour that got spread around pretty fast. I happen to work for EA so when I heard about this I was pretty infuriated, and didn't want to be mixed in with a company that would do this.

What it is, is when you play the game, a 3rd party company receives your IP, and sends your country name to the game, then destroys the IP. The game uses your country name *alone* to determine which in-game ads to show. This is so you don't get ads in different languages, etc.

There is no adware, and nothing that logs what sites your browse, etc. I just wish people did more research before further propagating this kind of rumour :-|

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Whether defined as adware or as spyware this practice is just plain wrong and if people stop buying their products in protest, tough, you reap what you sow. If they wanted to use in-game ads based on your country they could have pulled the regional settings from the registry.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

do you view pulling registry settings as less invasive than getting the IP?

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Lesser of two evils, yes. A program checking the registry is common practice. I would prefer that one did not do even that, though.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

The third party thing is a big hole. You can't always trust the *maker* of the game these days, what with asinine stuff like starforce these days. God knows what a third party will do.

Besides, the IP address thing is less accurate anyways.
Especially for European stuff, where it is easy to drive to a new country with completely different language.

On the other hand, it is a given that the user can read whatever language their regional settings are set to. If you don't read Italian, your PC isn't going to be set to Italian, even if you're visiting Italy at the time.

Or, heck, you could let the user choose what language they want the ads in! You're already doing that for the game's UI, right?

The question of why there are ads in a game you already paid for anyways is a separate matter.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

I fail to see what the problem here is gentlemen? I personally like to learn of a new cream for my hemorrhoids while I blow away someone else’s! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Why when your already doing it for free?

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

That is adware; software that downloads and displays ads. What you describe is spyware; software that logs users online behavior &c.

These people that don't do their research, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

The application is adware, since it serves up ads... But does it really matter? It is despicable either way.

(PS: It's not really necessary to quote entire posts like that, especially when you are only adding a sentence or two... Usually better to just pick a critical sentence or so to quote, cut out the rest.)

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

agreed.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

"What you describe is spyware; software that logs users online behavior &c."

Um, I didn't say it logs user's online behaviour. I said it *doesn't* do that. It simply sends your IP address one time when you first start the game, which is destroyed immediately.

The in-game ads is a different issue altogether, but I just wanted to make clear that this is neither adware nor spyware, especially as they are upfront with it in the first place with the leaflet inside the game box.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

The last thing I want to see when I am playing a game is an adverstisement for SHRAPNEL GAMES, popping up on some build board in the game. (No offense Shrap, but your site is like the only site I regularly visit so... it would be the site that might pop up.)

They are doing this because it is what google and now AOL do with email and web searches. YOu get an email message from someone asking you about say the Star Trek Mod and on the side I get all these advertisement about Star Trek.. WTF! If I want to search for something like that I will do it on my own. I hate the fact that my email, and now my games, are being data mined in order to force feed me advertisment. If that is the way things are going, kinda like paid tv has gone, then I WANT TO BE PAID to play!

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Note:
Just because they admit it is adware dosen't make it not adware.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

"No offense Shrap, but your site is like the only site I regularly visit so... it would be the site that might pop up."

It's like I'm talking to a wall. I said it *doesn't* log the sites you visit. How many times can I say the same thing over and over again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Do you have verifiable source of evidence, or is that an anti-rumor rumor?

Even if it doesn't track sites you visit, it is still a despicable practice (ad banners in products you explicitly paid for).

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

LOL, I like the "Play on Words."

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Tracking sites you visit has no bearing on whether it is adware or not. It is the simple fact of having Ads built in.

Ads + software = Adware

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

"Do you have verifiable source of evidence, or is that an anti-rumor rumor?"

Like I said, I work at EA so I did my own little investigation when the game was released. I didn't want to be associated with a company that installs adware or spyware. There are also articles on Gamespot and IGN that distill the incorrect rumour as just that, a rumour.

"Even if it doesn't track sites you visit, it is still a despicable practice (ad banners in products you explicitly paid for)."

Actually it's not. Think about it. World of Warcraft charges you what, $10 a month? The Battlefield franchise charges you a one-time fee of $50, in which you can play *forever* without another cost. EA has to pay to keep their servers on, and given there is almost 100,000 players logging on every DAY, you can imagine that this gets expensive.

Re: SE5 bad reviews and problems.
 

Sorry for the double post:

"On the 2142 note how can it make relevant in-game ads without tracking what you are doing on the internet. If it doesn't do that then it must just generate generic ads for everyone, if so then why does it need to do anything outside of run the game?

Exactly it does moniter what you are doing."

It bases the ads on your country based on your IP. It doesn't give you ads based on your interests. I don't even know why I'm defending the game, as I don't even like online FPS' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif