Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

In Dominions, there isn't much difference between cavalry archers, archers, slingers, etc. other than the damage their weapons do. However, some of these units are dedicated ranged units, while others are mobile ranged units. Let me propose a simple change (though not necessarily technically easy) to create some diversity between the units. Even if this isn't possible in this version of the game, I think it would be worth considering for the future.

First of all, let me divide ranged units into two categories: regular and mobile. Regular ranged units would include all foot archers and crossbowmen and possibly some units that possess supernatural ranged attacks. Mobile ranged units would be javelineers, slingers, mounted archers and possibly some units that possess supernatural ranged attacks.

What would be the difference? The only single technical difference would be that mobile units can move and fire in the same turn, while regular ranged units must choose between either. However, I also propose a simple AI addition to make this difference stand out. My proposition is a "skirmish" option to soldier scripting. Skirmish behavior would follow as such: A unit would move towards its target and fire. It will keep moving towards its target until it is within no less than 15 squares. It will then disengage to at least 15 squares every turn it is within a distance of less than 15 squares (if it can) and continue firing. After it is out of ammo, it will engage in melee.

MISC NOTES
- The skirmish option in the battle script should probably function like the attack or fire option; ie. allowing the input of a target.
- Skirmish should be the default behavior of some mobile ranged units.
- Maybe instead of calling them "mobile ranged units" they can have a special icon and be called "skirmishers".
- A "skirmish and retreat" behavior that has the units retreat after they are out of ammo or near the map edge would also be desirable.
- skirmishing units might take a -2 penalty to precision if they move and fire. If not that, set the precision of mobile ranged units a bit lower than dedicated ranged units.
- carrying javelins could increase encumbrance, thus light infantry would be ideally suited to carrying them.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

I heartily agree with BigJMoney's idea, we're are crying for having a "Skirmish" order since what... 4 years now ?
Aa long as it doesn't exist the light skirmisher troops (javelineers etc) won't be of much use... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
There's also the mounted archers issue, prec 8 make them so bad.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

I like this idea. It might address some of the criticisms against horse archers.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

Another way to do this could be linking it to Mounted troops. That leaves light infantry screwed but might be easier to implement and accomplishes most of the result.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

My idea was abit simpler and maybe could be slipped in quick in a patch. Since the old "attack commanders" is still in the game code, maybe it could be used to give the mounted archers a logical boost to their abilities.
Due to high positioned viewpoint, practice at arched firing, and experience in skirmish; the mounted archers have an advantage when using the attack rearward command".

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

Hmmm... I'm afraid I really don't like your suggestion Gandalf. The change you suggest would make sense for experienced archers more than for skirmish archers, but D3 has its own mechanism for depicting experience and unit type isn't it (you could argue for a few exceptions, such as daughter/mother/crone, but definitely not in this case). Those mounted archers are as green as a newly recruited militia!
As to the idea of the higher positioned viewpoint, yes it would give a bit better visibility, but then again few battlegrounds are perfectly flat, and archers (unmounted) generally would take the high ground for this very reason - enough that they may be higher up standing on their own two feet than mounted archers on their horse on the plain.

By contrast, I do rather like BigJMoney's suggestion. It seems somewhat realistic too: I would imagine that units not specifically designed to 'fire on the move' would need a couple of minutes to ready themselves, lay down their extra bale of arrows etc.
The missile troops more used to shooting on the go would be prepared and so wouldn't need this time. They could move into position, loose a round or two, and immediately move back. This type of behavior could be hard-coded into the 'mobile-archer' commands so that they work differently from reg. archers.
I think once they are backed against the end of the field they should probably auto-rout, and I think that 'mobile archer'-types should get a minus to their precision (or other archers should get a plus), because of the unstable mount beneath them and the fact that they are loosing a lot of shafts quickly.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

I should have mentioned that I liked his ideas also. I was just going for a quick fix since the code is already there for attack commanders.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

well that is one benefit of your suggestion: it would be easy to implement - so we can agree on that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

Firing ranged weapons and keeping distance from melee (skirmish) is what light cavalry should do. That's how it worked in history.
BUT I have a feeling Illwinter would implement it looong ago if it was relatively simple.

Another take on mobility.
 

Hmmm... Well this is just an idea but instead of empowering the "skirmishers" couldn't we weaken the archers bit?

I only aquired Dom3 a few days ago and have yet to start some real modding. But I have managed to import my own Avatar v12.4 mod from Dom2.

I nerfed the actionpoints for all units that are dedicated archers (the ones that rely on missiles to do their damage). I then increased their precision slightly. I meant this change to reflect the aiming and reloading, and perhaps somewhat poor tactical skills (iow they retreat slowly and take a lot of casualities while doing so).

This means that the skirmish units get slightly stronger by comparison. They are not very accurate but take their position on the battlefield quickly, and they are able to retreat from the battle which such speed that they usually take no further losses.

I also created Rider versions of most missile weapons (eg Rider's Short Bow) with much shorter range, far less ammo(6 shots) but improved precision.

Slings got a similar treatment. I don't know much about ancient warfare. But I don't feel that the descriptions I've seen seem to match up well with Dom3. True, I've not managed to come up with a good balance myself but I want to make the weapon fire slowly, with much shorter range, and with better precision. Sort of like a really light crossbow without armor piercing. But I'm having trouble getting the range and precision just right.

My mod works for me so I figured the idea might work for someone else as well. It's only halfway finished and balanced for singleplayer though, so my idea might not be of much help.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

I wouldn't say light infantry or javelineers are useless in the way horse archers are.

You can put javelineers behind heavier troops, and usually the fight is over before they get sucked into melee.

Light infantry can be recruited much faster than heavies, which is a real advantage. Slingers are deadly against a lot of the very low protection EA units, so they are not as useless as they used to be either.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

I like BigJMoney's suggestions.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

I can see how the skirmish AI might be a trick to code, but I think the simple idea of disallowing "dedicated" ranged units such as archers and crossbow the ability to move and fire couldn't have been that difficult while Doms 3 was in early development. If nothing else, that alone would give mounted archers a minor unique advantage. Like I said, even if it can't be patched, I hope it's considered for future versions.

@Wauthan
I like your idea. I'm tempted to give all archers and crossbowmen an AP of 1. Of course, this means that once routed, they will all die, which isn't fun either.

=$=

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

Wake up !! What exactly do you gain from enabling horse archers to shoot and move at the same time ? What exactly do you expect to happen once they reach enemy lines ? Are enemies supposed to be crippled at this point(by 8prec shortbows and low numbers) ? Since when are horse archers terrifying in melee ?

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

Its more important that they can actually get in range and fire even if deployed far back rather than having to wait for the enemy to walk into range of their weapons.

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

*points out the "skirmish command" part of the suggestion*

Re: Mobile Ranged Unit Improvement
 

@borsuk

I'm a tad confused. Horse archers already do move and shoot at the same time.

If you mean, "what advantage would they have over other ranged units, were there to exist any units who cannot do so" my answer is: then only mobile archers and very long ranged archers could fire on the first turn. As I said before it would be a very minor advantage.

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