This game is an expensive coaster
 

Well I played the demo of this game way back in September of Last year. I knew from the demo that the AI was pathetic to the point of non existance. I liked the design and figured it would be fun to play with other humans Online. Since they were saying TCP/IP would be put in I figured I could spend a month or 2 getting my feet wet and then be ready for real opponents. Well it's now been 8 months and counting and I still can't play this game in the manner that was promised and that I bought the game for. The AI is still the equivelant of beating up a baby and stealing it's juice. I am sick of people saying this company has such good customer support. They are still in the middle of a 3 year creation run which seems to be petering out 8 months after they sold this coaster. This is a mass produced fraud, not a game company.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

As I recall, TCP/IP support was put off because a large number of fans (from this very board) requested that AI improvement be given top priority. And improved it has! It's certainly not perfect, but given the complexity of this game it does a pretty good job. Not to mention, if you want human opposition, why not try Admiral's play by web server? http://seiv.admiral.com

p.s. Don't expect much sympathy from us.

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I only have one thing to say about this game. Since downloading the demo in October I have not really played another game since. Bought the Icewind Dale add-on and opened the box (played for about 2hrs, then went back to se4). The only other game that has had me this addicted was Civilizations (the original) back in my university days.

DAMN I love this game. And as to company support, in a world where games are fired out at us WAY b4 they are ready (anyone remember the Battlecruiser fiasco a few years ago?) I think MM has supported this game quite above and beyond the call of duty.

Aaron deserves a raise/holiday and his name in lights. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif (and whoever did the artwork as well, some damn fine shipsets there!)

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Dude, you cry like a baby!!! This is a one man operation (with Sharpnel games helping out some). I think MM has done an excellent job with this game. So what if their is no TCP/IP support, can't you play a game by E-mail? Or are you one of those type of gamers that likes "shootem-up" type games? Hey, if you don't like the game and want to use as a new fresbie for your dog, be my guest! Its your loss.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I didn't really expect any sympathy here as obviously anybody who thinks spending months playing this game a turn every 2 days with the complexities involved doubles for internet play is a whole case short of a six pack. I play the AI with one arm tied behind my back. I don't use mines, fighters, or any planetary defenses and I still stomp it flat with no effort on the hardest setting. Of course those of you not so bright or strategically minded might consider it adequate but when my golden retriever beat it he said it sucked too. I don't care what they said they have done or how many patches they put out this game isn't a game with no way to play solo or any way to play against other humans in the manner in which most human being would consider the proper way.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora,
Doesnt sound like you are playing the same game as me.
My current game (large galaxy, high difficulty, low AI bonus, all 16 mod pack races) is very challenging (see my thread "Tale of a Game from a Play Test Perspective" - I may be in 2nd place by turn 77, but, I've had to work like hell to get there).

Although the AI cant skirmish very well, when a mod pack race comes gunning for you, you are in for a challenging time.

If on the other hand you have played the mod pack races at low bonus or better and consistently beat them, then I'm not sure there are too many humans who will be a challenge for you.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a better space strategy game, as I think you will be waiting a long while.

GE

PS: There have been lots of strategy games since the Last great (MOO2), but, only SE4 has managed to take its title. With every patch, SE4 makes it harder for the next game to beat it, and Aaron seems comitted (from his replies to my suggestions, and those of others) to be taking on board gamers feedback in further improving the game - I cant see how this could be conceived as poor support.

PPS: By the way, my friends and I am hanging out for TCP/IP too, but, are still enjoying the game (particularly given all of the mods that fans are doing, and are able to do).

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I agree with GE. If you're playing Mod pack races with at least a low bonus, high difficulty and are THAT dissapointed, please don't ask ME for a Human vs. Human game - you'll be dissapointed with me also.

Yes, I too can (easily!) beat the 'standard' AI without using ANY UNITS (fighters, mines, troops, sats, etc.) and giving them more Racial Points to boot! However, there are some very good AI's written for some of the races in the Mod pacs.

Try playing a game or two against the Rage and give them High Dificulty and Med bonus. If you still feel that way after that, you are probably a MUCH better player than the vast majority of people in this forum. I know personally, I was humbled....

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Why not play PBEM? Is the pace too slow? I find the pace provides opportunities for lots of diplomacy and conniving. Your opponents will be intelligent and unpredicatable. I've been very impressed with the ability, maturity and competence of the opponents I've met.

PBEM also allows you to role-play. I'm trying a berserker race in a new PBEM. It may not be optimal (or survivable) but I bet I have a lot of fun.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Hotseat is also an option if you are lucky enough to live near some players.
This game is definately one of the best human vs human games ever. There are so many ways to win!

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora
Instead of complaining you should mention a strategy game where the AI is better than SE4 Vs.1.35. The fact is, that there is none.
Maybe you played the 1.0 Version and won "one handed", but against the TDM races its another story.

TCP/IP: who cares about this? Do you want to tell us that you are playing a game over the internet which Lasts several hundred of hours?
As long as the scenario editor (for shorter games) is not available it has no sense to play TCP/IP.

klaus

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

QUOTE:
"play against other humans in the manner in which most human being would consider the proper way."
/QUOTE

When you say "most human beings" I assume you mean "most MSG junkie 17 year olds with an attention span of 4 minutes". Play by email (and play by snailmail) games hav been good enough for most people for a very very long time - long before TCP/IP was invented. Never played postal chess?

I prefer PBEM because I don't have time in my life to sit down and stare at a screen for 10 hours at a time. (except at work=-)Plenty of others in this forum are in the same position. Personally I think the introduction of TCP/IP could ruin my enjoymnt of SEIV.

I need my strategy in small packages because I do other things too. I like having a day to think about my next turn in quiet moments. Just because you have no patience, don't assume we don't either.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Just a quick note guys.

This is coming from an offshoot of a post to another forum. The original poster decided to attack Aaron and myself on a forum on cdmag and attempted to call both of immoral and unethical and other such nonsense.

I am upset about this but let's keep it somewhat low key as maybe you guys can convince him otherwise. However with his posting on the cgOnline.com forum I somewhat doubt it, but there's always hope.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Richard I will respect your request, but sometimes people like this "person" need to be addressed.
I've been a gamer for over 40 years and I can say this

1st - this person is not a "gamer"

2nd - If he had the demo in Sept as he claims he knew what the game was like, therefore his statments are more then likely false

3rd - SEIV is one of the best computer strategy games ever put on the market, and with the modders additions, I don't know of any other game that can compare with the Ai

4th - Both you and Aaron have given and continue to give the "best support then any other gaming company, designer, or programer in the industry".

5th - This person sounds and appears to be someone who just wants to stir up trouble and in fact, I rather even doubt if this "person" actually has played the game let alone the mods

6th - If this "person" wanted to play other human players, why hasn't "it" played hotseat like a lot of the rest of us.

7th - therefore, I for one do not take anything "it" says to be other then what it realy is, and that is #$%^%$.

8th - I could go on but I hope "it" gets the point, and further if "it" doesn't like then "go to some other forum, we don't want or need persons of your unstable character here taking up space.

9th - I apoligize to you Richard and Aaron for my long winded post, and to all you other guys and gals on this forum, but this "person" needs to be taken to task

I again apoligize to everyone

just some ideas Mac

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I am in a PBEM game with 4 other guys on http://seiv.admiral.com where we have gone through 44 turns in the Last 20 days. That's over 2 turns a day average, not a "turn every 2 days."

That probably wouldn't be fast enough for some people waiting on TCP/IP, but I think its pretty damn good considering we all have jobs and live in different time zones.

In fact we'd probably be up to turn 60 by now, but the Last week or so I have been very busy with other things and have not been able to keep up my normal pace.

Geoschmo

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Well I have had enough of it to be honest, I just can't please some people.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathstalker:

DAMN I love this game. And as to company support, in a world where games are fired out at us WAY b4 they are ready (anyone remember the Battlecruiser fiasco a few years ago?) I think MM has supported this game quite above and beyond the call of duty.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO, DEATHSTALKER, NO! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I agree with everything you're saying, but I just cringed when you mentioned Battlecruiser. Don't you know Derek Smart's reputation? It is said that if you mention his name or his games three times in ANY forum, ANYWHERE on the internet, he will appear to defend himself and rip you a new one http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Kind of like the old saying, "speak of the devil, and he appears"


Oh, and as for you, Kagetora, you're a whining little dick. Go away.




[This message has been edited by Possum (edited 24 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
9th - I apoligize to you Richard and Aaron for my long winded post, and to all you other guys and gals on this forum, but this "person" needs to be taken to task <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why bother? It won't do any good. He's just looking for attention. Ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

Don't feed the troll!

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Some people would complain if they won the lottery. I think this may the case here.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Simple - If you don't like a game, you don't play it.

No one in the world has liked everything they have ever purchased. It's part of life to try things and learn from those experiances.

---

If belly-aching is required, find a tavern and I am sure that the drunkard in the corner will listen to anything you want to rant about for the price of a beer...

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Not surprisingly, you people have no clue what you are talking about. Those that feel as I do about this game haven't been sitting here posting about how great this unfinished product is. We have been patiently waiting for more than 8 months for the product we already paid for to be delivered. As to the mods, Aaron didn't even write those. How can you give credit to his game for an AI that he didn't even participate in creating? You all know as well as I do that TCP/IP play was implied, promised whatever you want to call it for this game and it hasn't been delivered. Instead, Aaron has supposedly been catering to the miniscule minority of mod makers and players of such while ignoring the vast majority of those who are waiting for the internet opinion in silence. As to better games, I haven't even finished a game of this because playing the AI is the equivelent of beating up a baby and taking it's juice and just about as much fun too. Any game I can actually play would be a vast improvement.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

If you feel you have bought a defective product then you should probably ask for your money back. I personally feel like I got the deal of the century with this game. It has surpassed all my expectations.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Man am I bummin! I bought this new piece of software called Windows 2000 that was supposed to be the answer to all my problems. The advertisement told me I could do all my spreadsheets, databases and word processing documents as well as surf the Internet and get E-Mail. All that it came with was this program called 'WordPad'. I want my money back!!!

Now there are people telling me I need to go out and buy a word processor as well as pay for an Internet ISP!!!

Boy, I bet there are a LOT of people that feel as screwed by Microsoft as I do!!!

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora,

You seem like a person that likes to play real time strategy games and first person shoot-em up games. SEIV is not a real time strategy game, nor is it a shoot-em up game. It is turn based.

YOU DO NOT play this game using some of the mods created by this user comunity. If you had, you could not substantiate your comments. This is not a guess, IT IS FACT. Ask the Users from this forum, they will tell you. IF you own this game, download some of the AI mods, and give them a try. Post your save games every 10 or 20 turns and show us that you are still beating up a baby. In other words, put up or shut up.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora, everyone is entitled to their opinions of the game, I am just sorry that your opinion differes from mine.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I am coming in late to this lamb-basting of him.

Ok!
First- Everyone has a right to feel that if they did not get what the thought they were getting that they have a right to complain about the product.

Second- This is the first game were I can have a big influence on:
a- the design, the designers are very open to e-mails and discussing player ideas
b- i can actually change the game by modding it to what I would like it to be like. I am not a programmer but can chnage a text file.

You don't get that sort of support from other gaming houses, mostly you by a buggy game and some time in the future they may realease a patch. MM and all have endevoured to fix bugs as quickly as found.

True this is not the game that I fully like but it comes dam close.

If you don't like it then sell it off to someone who might.

You have had your say so now you can get up from the table and leave the building.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Hello,

It seems obvious that this person is a troll, since his only defense is to reiterate his original points. I've been playing computer games since the days of CPM and I've only seen a few other cases of such intense aftermarket support (Gary Grigsby comes to mind).

If he only plays what the developer puts out there, then he's likely missed a great deal of good gaming over time. How many good Doom, Half-Life and other mods he must have missed.

I don't have the game yet, but have enjoyed the demo a lot and look forward to the challenge of the modded AIs. (My copy of SE IV should arrive Sat. or early next week.)

I have already downloaded every mod I can find and look forward to tinkering myself.

No, the AI in the demo is not a challenge. Perhaps that's what he is playing and that could also be why he gives no hard evidence (such as saves where he is beating the Rage) that he is the ubermench he proclaims himself to be.

Rather, he seems to be out to sow hate and discontent and tick fans of SE IV off. I don't belive I shall ever fathom this mindset.

A view from the sidelines,
V'ger gone

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

While I am personally not a beta tester (did not get signed up in time). I would like to say this.
MM has been very open with this game. I have reported the WinMe P4 issues to him and He as responded asking for details and files. I have yet to hear from any other game company were there are bugs or issues with their games running on my system. Nor have I seen any other gaming company ask for my input on something and then either tell me it will be in the next patch or that the game can not handle that sort of change.
MM has done this (as you can see on their web site.) And if you check the patch history They have add some changes that Modders here wrote. (check the formation file for example)

I too like the way I can change things and enjoy knowing others enjoy my changes. As I enjoy what others have add to the game also.

I have yet to find another game out there that allows me to add to it nor have I found a forum with such a group of people in the same mind set.

I Have changed the AI attack rates to were they will attack nearly every turn and even the standard AI that come with ver1.35 has improved to the point were they are using a lot more mine sweepers and attacking my other system more And with the Mod pack add ons. I have lost whole systems to single fleets attacking one planet after the other.

The game I have going now, The AI's have attacked so much that I can not keep up with rebuilding my ships.

I may actually lose this one.

P.S. MM and Sarge (Richard) I for one thank you for your support, the use of this forum and for the group that this game has drawn to it.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
The AI is still the equivelant of beating up a baby and stealing it's juice. I am sick of people saying this company has such good customer support. They are still in the middle of a 3 year creation run which seems to be petering out 8 months after they sold this coaster. This is a mass produced fraud, not a game company.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok two things:
The AI, I've done some professional work on computer games before and AI is really difficult. In my opinion, the AI does have its problems, but I think there's a reason for that. The game was designed to be open ended for modification and improvement so a lot of the AI algorithms probably had to be generalized, because almost anything can be changed. It's a lot easier to design an AI which only has to deal with a specific set of situations and moves so to speak. However, the AI has greatly improved in even just the few months since I bought this game in February. As for the customer service, I'm not sure what you're gripe is. How many companies continually release upgrades and patches that incorporate user suggested changes and improvements or make allowances for Users to do so? Personally I know of very few companies that have given me responses so quickly when I sent in email. As for your second post, this is an honest question not sarcastic, but are you so sure that the modders and solo players are in the minority and that people who want TCP/IP play are in the majority? I mean seriously how do you know?

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I want to know what games Kagetora has been playing that "measure up," because I have been missing out if they are that much better than the se4 AI. while this game is not the best AI ever, it certainly measures up fairly well in the latest Version - and I have not played a game yet where the AI could challenge a human without using numerical superiority or cheating.

SSI games were good, but they were not THAT good. Imperialism 1 was a fine product in my opinion, how does that one rate on the Kagetora scale, so I have some point of reference?

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

is what i read correct? this is entirely the work of one man? holy cow; the amount of blood and sweat that went into this program is unbelievable. this is far better than any other 4x program i have ever played, back to the old days of the origional reach for the stars. this is truely an epic achievement. to whine that you dont like it - after using the demo - is rather crass. if you knew from the demo that you didnt like it, why be so silly as to buy the full game?

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kadste:
Kagetora,
You seem like a person that likes to play real time strategy games and first person shoot-em up games. SEIV is not a real time strategy game, nor is it a shoot-em up game. It is turn based.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys -

I've noticed that it seems to be popular in here to denigrate those who choose to play FPS or RTS games. I really feel this is somewhat unfair.

Those who play what Kadste calls "shoot-em up games" are not idiots, not are they attacking us or giving us any grief. Why are folks here basing on them like this?

Kagetora is ONE idiot causing problems. Let's not condemn whole sectors of the gaming community on the basis of that, eh?

I have played Team Fortress for 2 and a half years now, through its original Quake1 Version, through the Half-LIfe Version, and now in the Quake3 Version. It has challenges all its own, and offers a team-play experience that no turn-based game ever can.

You may prefer oranges, but that doesn't mean those who prefer apples or bananas are bad people, or less intelligent than you.

And some of us enjoy a variety of fruits, eh?

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I say this guy is just looking for flame bait and gets off on the reactions... a lurker with nothing better to do.

IMO extreme opinions like this one, that are obviously full of holes are not worth responding to, if it was true the game wouldnt be as popular as it has been.

Aaron has done and outstanding job - from the beta testers to the buying public we have all been working with MM.
Its like we have all had our own private programmer creating the 4x space game us old time gamers have all wanted since first cracking open Starfire in 1977.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Ahem,
In defence of 17 year olds to witch I am a member *growl* I personaly love this game for the very reasons he is complaining about, the ai (not all that easy in my opinion) the images (how customizable!!) and MOST of all PBEM. While this trouble maker appears to be griping to these main points I must respond with, 'uh huh' and 'oh really?'.

Space Empires is Old School as far as my generation is concerned and THANK GOD for it. If a single corprate mind got their hands on it would have been degraded to exactly what this 'person' wants a jazzed up, sped up semi shoot-em-up. Ug I think their is quite enough of those thanx I'll take SE IV and run, and if ever shrapnel sells it to the god forsaken corprate empires on that fateful day I will find an old patch and play on it because this is MM and MM is the best *)(( company I've seen!

And Now I will speek of shrapnel, and to this I must direct the attention to annette, if ever their was a persone to talk to it was her! I had problems with the delivery she went the exta ten miles to make it right! *Big Breath* I'm done ranting thx for reading.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Hm, well, this is just my guess here, but I would say it's a pretty safe to assume that this guy is vulnerable to acid and fire. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Kagetora:
You say that there's a "silent majority" who wait for IP gaming? Hm, well, most people who want IP game would be Online I would imagine (they would to have an IP that anyone would be able to connect to). If that's true, then I would think that most people would have enough brain cells to rub together to find the MM or SG websites, and from there, these forums.

Even if that's not so, instead of coming in here and letting out a racehorse-sized piss of hot air, why don't you gather up all of your little friends who want IP multiplayer so badly and make your opinions known?

Yes, well, sorry about that. I wanted to have my first post on these forums to a hapy one, but I really just don't like trolls.

-Hotfoot
"Ah well, next time, next time!"

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else, however his only argument seems to be screaming "I was promised TCP/IP play, I was promised TCP/IP play.......". It doesn't look as if he's spent much time actually playing the game and investigating all the excellent mods out there.

This game appeals to virtually all the people on this forum because not only is it an indepth game with vast complexity/variability (i.e. there's no one way to win), but it allows you to get involved with the development of the game as well (AI/Shipset Creation, Mods etc.).

Compared to other games I've purchased(Activision should rot in hell for Call To Power II!!), SEIV is one of the best games I've ever purchased. TCP/IP play would be a useful option, but it shouldn't be prioritised in sacrifice to AI improvements, Bug fixes.

It's obvious that it's the majority against Kagetora. Therefore instead of continuing to justify Kagetora's singular argument by responding, I reckon we should stop posting to this thread and let it slip down into the archives.

That's my 2 cents, I'll shut up now and go read the threads which have something constructive about the game in them.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Read this threat and it really upset me. Not because of Kagetora's post but because of the answers. Guys, is this "La court du roi" where everybody tries to please King Aaron the best he can, or is criticism still allowed ?
Kagetora made two very valid points:
1. TCP/IP was promised
2. The AI is still weak.

O.K., he chooses rather extreme formulations but nothing which I feel would leave the area of civilized complaint (until HE got flamed). In return you call him "dick", "idiot", "troll", etc.. Well, I personally do not feel that his complaints are so absurd and so absolutely unjustified that his post can only be understood as the deliberate provocation of a troll who is looking to be flamed. This forum has always been an extremely civilized one. Please do not forget that freedom is always the freedom of somebody who thinks differently !

Concerning Kagetora's two points: At least I second them:
1. TCP/IP was repeatedly promised and I am waiting for it. I also do not have the time to play 10 hours in a row but I want to use it to play some regular "Wednesday night SE4 sessions" with old friends from school who are now living all over Europe. If contrary to what was promised TCP/IP does not get implemented, SE4 would still be a good game, but it would loose significant value, especially with regard to 2.

2. Yes, I know the AI was improved after release. However, I also feel it is still pathetic. On "No bonus" I would beat it with my eyes shut. On low bonus and using the (excellent)mod pack, I still always win if I get past turn 30, despite the fact that I cripple myself in various ways. On medium and high bonus I may sometimes have difficulties, but, hey, is this a sign of a good AI ? Tell me, in the weaker strategy games you know, would the AIs not often win if you gave them three or four times the normal production ? I am looking to be challenged by the AI's campaigns, not to be squeezed by sheer weight of numbers.

So in some respects I must share Kagetora's complains: SE4 was an unfinished product when it was released. It has improved since then but is still lacking features which were originally promised. Worse, there is not yet a sufficient challenge if you do not give the AI outrageous unfair advantages.

Still, SE4 has a great ruleset. If now, they would only get the AI right (and/or allow me to play against HI) ...

[This message has been edited by jowe01 (edited 25 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora is none other than BillB who has been beating up Richard about SE4 over at cdmag. Nice to see you took Bob's advice and moved your criticism over here. Your Posts are always a fun read.

Elmo

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jowe01:
Tell me, in the weaker strategy games you know, would the AIs not often win if you gave them three or four times the normal production ? I am looking to be challenged by the AI's campaigns, not to be squeezed by sheer weight of numbers.
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever play an RTS scenario? Most of them operate with the "sheer weight of numbers" approach, giving AIs complete bases, significant forces and often most of the map at the beginning of a level. Others, such as Civilization-type games, rely primarily on cheating at all levels from production bonuses to a "penalize the tech leader" cost model to making AIs handle diplomacy with people in a far more one-sided model (getting angrier faster, making idiotic demands and then declaring war if you fail to bribe them every few turns). _Shogun:TW_ is another game that needs to blatantly discriminate against human players to pose much of a challenge to an experienced player, through such details as deficit spending, production and combat bonuses, and not-exactly-simultaneous moves.

Also compare and contrast complexity, customizability and detail with, say, traditional counter wargames ala TOAW:COW. The differences are obvious... and the computational cost and theoretical difficulty are incomparable.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I agree with jowe01. I think there is room for criticism especially the AI. I don't play solo because it is no fun. The Rage may be difficult at a 5X bonus but that doesn't seem fun to me. An idiot with a big enough club may be dangerous but he's still an idiot. And 5X is a huge club.

Don't get me wrong, I've gotten tremendous value from this game playing PBEM games. I'm amazed at what MM hasw accompished with so little in resources. I think there is a cooperative way we can improve the AI so I'm pushing a previous post on this issue to the front.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora is none other than BillB who has been beating up Richard about SE4 over at cdmag. Nice to see you took Bob's advice and moved your criticism over here. Your Posts are always a fun read.
Elmo&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I tell you what. I am not BillB although I do know who he is. He informed me that Richard in a misplaced and just wrong attempt to for whatever reason pretend he and I are the same person released my real name on the other board. This is in my opinion private information they recieved by my purchasing their game. I take great offense that it has been released particularly in so cold and callous a manner and for so base a purpose.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Richard has totally crossed the line. Not only has he rationalized that this game was never really intended to have TCP/IP which anybody that has been here for any length of time knows to be false but he is now lying and acting like it was a couple months after the demo before it was even brought up. I was reading these Boards prior to the demo even being released and I am quite certain implications were made here that this game would eventually have TCP/IP capability long before the demo. This was my primary reason for purchasing the game in the first place. I knew from the demo the AI was terrible. I loved the design and figured it would be fun to play against other humans. However, this is still impossible in any reasonable manner.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

SEIV is a PBEM game. TCP/IP support is unnecessary.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

So in some respects I must share Kagetora's complains: SE4 was an unfinished product when it was released. It has improved since then but is still lacking features which were originally promised. Worse, there is not yet a sufficient challenge if you do not give the AI outrageous unfair advantages.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I couldn't agree more. The reason I haven't bothered with the mods is because all they do is give the AI outrageous advantages in an effort to get some value from this product. I can't see how it can even be called a computer game at all with no AI or any way to reasonably play with others or at least in the manner most customers or even other game companies would consider reasonable. Richard on another board is now pretending that the demo Version of this game was as finished as it should have been for sale. I must be blind, because I can't believe anybody on this board didn't know this game was incomplete when they bought it and expected it to be completed later?

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

If you feel you have bought a defective product then you should probably ask for your money back.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Actually I did ask for my money back in writing and was told it was against their policy to give any refunds at all for any reason. Which is typical for fly by night organizations.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Question for Kagetora:
How fast do you finish an average turn?
How long does it take to transmit a turn file to your friends?
Is Tactical combat important to you, or sequential play?

If you want tactical, sequential play,and a fast turn turn around time, I would suggest ICQ. Play your turn, and send it instantly, while giving the next player a poke to hurry up http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

If you are OK with using simultaneous to speed up the game, the use the Play-by-Web service.

Unless your turns are really short, integrated TCP/IP support will not speed up your game significantly over the other options out there.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>O.K., he chooses rather extreme formulations but nothing which I feel would leave the area of civilized complaint (until HE got flamed). In return you call him "dick", "idiot", "troll", etc.. Well, I personally do not feel that his complaints are so absurd and so absolutely unjustified that his post can only be understood as the deliberate provocation of a troll who is looking to be flamed. This forum has always been an extremely civilized one. Please do not forget that freedom is always the freedom of somebody who thinks differently !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jowe01,

No one is resonably stating that Kagetora does not have a right to post valid complaints in the forum, but your defense of him is misplaced. He left "the area of civilized complaint" in his very first post. Noone had even read it or responded to him when he stated <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am sick of people saying this company has such good customer support. They are still in the middle of a 3 year creation run which seems to be petering out 8 months after they sold this coaster. This is a mass produced fraud, not a game company.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think anyone has defend the ai, or the lack of Tcp/ip support. We are simply taking exception to his rude, and unsubstantiated comments regarding the level of support from Malfador. He has his number one priority, Tcp/ip. It is NOT the number one priority of Aaron, or EVEYONE else who has bought the game. Whether or not it is the priority of the majority of customer, I can't say for sure. But from the level of comments here I would say not. If anything, the "vocal minority" seem to be the one's demanding that tcp/ip be implemented immediatley. That is not to say that we all wouldn't like to see it happen. But because we all aren't clamoring for it the way he has he has labeled us... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course those of you not so bright or strategically minded might consider it adequate but when my golden retriever beat it he said it sucked too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everyone has the right to their opinion. Complaints about the ai or requests for tcp/ip are valid points. Calling Aaron and Richard criminals (before you say he didn't call Aaron a criminal, look up the definition of "fraud") or unethical for not doing things on his schedule are not the kind of things reasonable people do.

Geo

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Unless your turns are really short, integrated TCP/IP support will not speed up your game significantly over the other options out there.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well frankly I put this game on the back burner only checking in here periodically for the new patches and awaiting the TCP/IP to be included. I never realized it might actually take this long or perhaps I might have entertained some alternatives before now. However, I didn't and I don't know anything about those you mentioned.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Everyone has the right to their opinion. Complaints about the ai or requests for tcp/ip are valid points. Calling Aaron and Richard criminals (before you say he didn't call Aaron a criminal, look up the definition of "fraud") or unethical for not doing things on his schedule are not the kind of things reasonable people do.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well, look I understand the difficulty in doing creative type things like this. However, you can't advertise you are selling something and then not deliver what you advertised and people paid their money to get. I don't care if is deliberate on their part or not they still have an obligation to provide the product they said they would. I have a hard time believing that if Aaron had really wanted to he could have finished this game in more than 8 entire months. Entire games have been started from scratch and finished in less time. Problem is he has the money already so he has little incentive now to finish this game the way he said he would.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

We'll I gotta' throw my hat into the ring again on this one...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
... However, you can't advertise you are selling something and then not deliver what you advertised and people paid their money to get...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
...I have a hard time believing that if Aaron had really wanted to he could have finished this game in more than 8 entire months. Entire games have been started from scratch and finished in less time...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know of any of the major game publishers out there that'll do one in less than a year - even a new Version of an old game. I'm personally sorry you dislike the game so much. However, I'm really enjoying you scrambling around trying to justify (IMO) your unfounded statements and observations. Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just like @$$holes...everyone has one....

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I can understand, but no agree, with your complaints. This is not the first, and certainly not the Last game, that didn't meet everyones expectations, and possible some advertising, which I can't comment on. If you believe all advertising have I got a deal for you.....
As far as the AI is concerned, I agree that it can easily be beaten after a certain point regardless of the difficulity or if it is a stock race or a mod race. It is, after all, a program and once you figure the way to beat it you can repeatedly beat it if you play the same way. This is true of any computer game, regardless of the designers claims on how good their AI is.
I would suggest you try the some of the following and see if you don't feel a little different.
Try the TDM mod
Try playing as a Pirate or Nomad with SJ's Pirate mod.
Try playing the game a different way, don't follow the same research pattern, vary your style, build different ship, etc.
Play a hotseat game if possible.
Play a High Tech game in a small quadrent with 10 good starting planets, 20 races, and 100K starting resource points.
Give them time and the type of internet play you want may still happen.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 25 May 2001).]