Downloadable retail needed?
 

I can't be bothered with shipping and handling and waiting, I want it now , please make this game downloadable, or find a download retailer in europe.

Otherwise I am not going to buy it, and I think you will find many will agree with me on that.

Janster

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Yep, Galactic Civilization is a very good example that downloading/updating games via internet works successfully. I bought/download both GalCiv I and II via stardock. I can't understand why its still not possible for most of the games. At least for such like dominions III which have only a few/none retailers in a whole country.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

It is seriously damaging Dominion III's ability to sell anything whatsoever.

I think the people they need to sell too are NOT found in the walmart shops.

Targeting is alpha omega, unless they have some weird deal with shrapnel, they should cancel it and get a proper online distributor.

Janster

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Personally, I don't like download-versions of games.

I prefer to have a professionally pressed CD/DVD, a decent printed manual (esp. with a game like Dominions) and not be hassled with any kind of online activation.

I tried the download-method with UBI (Pe-2 add-on for Pacific Fighters) and I am not impressed. It took just as long for them to confirm my download (because I don't have a credit card, they have to wait until my bank transfers the money before they can confirm the download - shipping is faster, they ship and request the money from my bank at the same time), the installation with the installer and activation was tedious and in the end, I had to burn my own CD so I can reinstall without all that.

Don't get me wrong, it may work for Stardock. But if you can't guarantee that it works perfectly, better don't offer it at all. A bad download-platform and activation procedure is worse than no download at all.

Also, Shrapnel would have to offer more options for payment.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Last time I checked, which was 5 seconds ago, Dominions 3 was the 2nd best selling game at Gamer's Front. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

So just imagine where it could be with a downloadable version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Honestly i can see the pro's and cons of both sides so i think i better not stress out my little mind by getting involved.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Yeah, I know the download version would boost the sales but the "OMU DOMINIONS IS NOT SELLING!!!1" doom and gloom tires me.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Do you realize how much it costs to develope on online distribution system that will actually work well?
Or even just "renting" an existing one.

If you feel like donating a few mil to shrapnel, I'm sure they'll see things your way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

No, renting doesn't cost much, there's a good choice of professionnal e-solutions vendors.
Not making Dom3 available by download is Shrapnel's choice, but it hasn't to do with cost- it'll be less costly than printing the CDs and manuals.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Gamers front have a download service. But I think the manual to dominions 3 makes the game. At last a manual that tells something about the game.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Don't underestimate the cost of bandwidth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Exactly. You could include it as a .pdf, but I take any bet that THEN, people would complain that they had to print such a large manual.


Also, like Agrajag said: Bandwidth, server maintenance, the admin that wants to be paid... Online distribution (or online presence in general) is not as cheap as many people would like to think.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

It doesn't have to be a choice between downloadable and not downloadable. I think the biggest draw is simply "I want more right now!" And if you have to wait several days it is a lot easier to just wait and not buy it.

If you've in a hot demo game, hit turn 40, and continuing the game is only $60 and 15 minutes away (with a fast connection) its very easy to drop the cash.

I'd say you still purchase the game, manual and pay shipping as normal. Then you are able to download the CD immediately. The only real copy protection is your CD-KEY. They could zip up the install CD for download and it would work fine.

I've bought a couple games this way (after being sucked into a demo) that I wouldn't have bought if I had to wait... and some frankly I shouldn't have bought... but immediate gratification is so tempting!

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Ordering something from the internet and then waiting for it is sort of a pain, it really deters people from making impulse buys.

I never bought dominions 2, entirely because I was too lazy to order it online and wait for it. When I want a game I want it NOW. hehe

Eventually reading the AARs and the forums sucked me in enough where I had no choice but to buy Dom 3, and I'm glad I did, but there were like 5 times where I would have shelled out 50 bucks on the spot for Doms 2 if I could have DL'd it or bought it in a store.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Downloadable still has many pros and cons. Finding a downloadable retail would be good but do any exist? So far as I know everyone is still playing with it on their own with various results.

GalCiv which is a great arrangment and working well for them but its only their system and not available to others. As far as I know Brad isnt packaging/selling that system.

And altho I agree that there would be more sales, Im not sure if Dom3 would generate enough sales that otherwise wouldnt happen in order to justify getting into the headaches of direct download.

I think that many of the problems with direct download might be settled by offering it as a BitTorrent file and selling the serials. But thats a whole different can of worms.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Dominions_2 should be made available for purchase via download. I would recommend all their games be made available for purchase via download after a new sequel is released.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I admit I have, on more than one occasion, chosen to buy a downloadable game as an "impulse buy", so maybe the "download it now" thing works with me. OTOH, I don't think I ever decided not to buy a game because there was no option to download it.

Stardock's system for downloads is great - for those who don't know about it, it lets you archive on CD, or reinstall from a new machine, or whatever you'd like to be able to do with a game you bought on a CD. With this kind of facility, the only downside to a download system is the lack of a printed manual, which isn't much with most games these days since they have so crappy manuals - but, in the case of Dom3, makes a huge difference.

Having the manual as a PDF file is fine, but having it as a nicely bound, physical object is very important to me.

Now, as to what Shrapnel "should" or "could" do - it's clearly their choice, but like Pascal (PDF), I don't believe finding a reliable system to setup the downloads is that much of an obstacle to them - even if they offered a downloadable version at some discount, they'd probably recoup that in the cost of printing the manual.

I think one of the reasons they won't offer a downloadable version is that it might encourage piracy - if the manual is available as a PDF file, it becomes that much easier to just copy the whole thing and give it to your friends. As it is right now, copying the game doesn't just make it impossible to play MP games - you also don't get the nice manual.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I think just being able to download and play the game immedietely would be a huge benefit. Then they can still ship you the CD and manual. Sure it might be tough without the manual for a few days... but a lot less tough then having to wait WITHOUT the game for those days.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I dont think its a choice thing. No one is arguing that they should. They might not even argue that they should. But its not the same as offering a patch or a demo. Its not something that can just be turned on. People will put up with alot for small free files that they wont put up with for a large expensive one. The management system, the security, the servers, the customer support, all goes way up for digital download. Ive been involved in trying to create systems like that and I begged out. It was more than I was willing to accept responsibility for.

When someone offers an installable package like they have for shopping carts, forums, PMs, blogs, etc etc then we might see it.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I am all for a merger of Shrapnel, Matrixgames, Battlefront, Stardock and Paradox http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

With the games they publish and 2 established downloadable retail systems between them this would fix both my gaming and my instant gratification needs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

CharonJr

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Well, I've talked out of experience, as I happen to be a partner in AGEOD (the guys who've made Birth of America).
It's a micro company (approx 3 full-time guys + some others helping !), still we were able to offer a download option (it was CD or download however) without investing in developing our system, we've just rented a solution.

Technical problems were few, and the cost was not high enough to make the deal worse for us than normal CD delivery.

In the case of Dominions I agree that the best solution would be to allow immediate d/l and still send at least the manual. There's even no need to d/l a full CD as it's in fact made of 3 (or is it 4 ?) different 120Mb installers for different OSes...

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Well, precisely, some people are arguing that they should.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

But some are making it sound like they are choosing not to. As if its as simple as making the demo available by download.

Most people if they think about it will realize that its not that easy. Tracking a download to a payment, being secure in keeping that payment info, handling broken downloads, connecting a broken download back to a payment, and doing it all in a way that keeps someone from abusing it to get free copies. Not to mention making it work with as little manual management as possible.

Even that doesnt cover what a release would do to them. The hassle we had wiating for our pre-orders would have been nothing compared to having everyone trying to download it at the same time. Especially the lag that is caused by having dialups and far overseas locations hanging onto a connection long enough to download the whole game.

GalCiv is a sweet arrangment but some users have a problem with it and Id hate to have to install software for every game company that I want to do business with. Even Matrix seems to use it only for smaller games which are not company make-or-break products. Shrapnel does have downloadable games so they have tried it. They just dont seem ready to offer Dominions that way (yet), and I dont see where the benefit of it outweighs the chances they would take. Its not that kindof a game.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

The biggest benefit is that we can get the game as soon as possible, regardless where you live.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Frankly, I'm not even sure that piracy is that big of an issue as long as people couldn't play multiplayer games with a pirated copy.

I found Dominions 2 on a "trial" game index website. Downloaded and liked the game. Downloaded the demo to play with the latest patched versions and promptly bought the game to play online with others and to get the full version with the latest patches.

A "trial" version on a game like this will never be up to date... or if it was Dominions would be so vastly more popular that I doubt shrapnel or Illwinter would be complaining.

And someone that is into the game is going to be dying to read through a huge list of patches and additions that they don't have access to.

If it wasn't for that "trial" site I may have never found Dominions and Shrapnel would never have got my $110.

Its kind of a separate issue, but if you take a reduced stance on piracy it can simplify an online distribution.

Basically you need to let anyone who has bought the game be able to download it (username and password login to a download site). Track how many times it was download... so you can cut them off at 10 or 20 times unless they send and email (basically in case the account was shared with others).

Then you just protect the serials numbers.

I haven't checked the "trial" sites for Dominions. But the last thing you want is someone that wants the game right now... and finds out that they can get a version immediately illegally versus waiting a week to buy it legitimately. But I suppose even in that case they will still eventually buy it so they can play multiplayer. What you wouldn’t get are people that ended up not liking the game enough to buy it later who might have dropped the money before they didn’t know they wouldn’t be in love with it (Sword of the Stars in my case).

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

This is basically what Stardock does. Shrapnel seems to take a mixed stance: no "please insert CD #x" nonsense, but, at least in the case of Dominions, at least the non-distribution of a PDF manual serves as a minor deterrent to piracy. Not a huge issue to me, and it's clearly their call.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Since I already have the game its not a big issue to me either. Before I had the game... it was more important. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Reduced piracy stance was why I mentioned BitTorrent and serial tracking. The game could be made available for ANY site to offer as a download. Sell and track serial numbers only. If they were going to go that direction, Id say that might work well. Split the manual between a minimum keypresses and basic starting PDF, and a strategy guide hard print manual.

Even if they affered purchaseable serial numbers it would help since many of us have access to someone who has the CD. I ended up with more manuals than I needed.

But I wouldnt take a low piracy stance due to lack of multiplayer action. If the player base isnt big enough to support digital download then its definately not big enough for that since I see many who are solo players.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Cough, there is really no options.

The future is downloadable games, end of story http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

This is electronic media, why the heck is it being transported in ancient cd media????

Sure, some like the box, and I'm sure they can still order it.

I use.

Stardock , works like a charm
Steam , works like a charm, exept a bit slow.
Gamersgate (paradox et al.) works like a charm.

I think, saved cost on printing/cd's and retail outlets = more money for devs.

This is not an option for the future , get Dominion on DOwnload NOW.

Janster

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

"Physical books are history.

The future is electronic books, end of story." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Things aren't as simple as they seem.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

In moment noone will read e-books on pc or notebook. I'm just waiting for the right hardware. Sony will come out with some cool light e-book reader.

But back to topic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Electronic sales (whether download or shipping, as in Shrapnel's case) still make up less than 10% of the market as far as software retailing goes. Your not likely to see electronic distribution becoming the norm for a while yet (at least, not until the scaremongering about ID theft or Credit Card scams dies down).

Personally I prefer a CD (I even bought Gal Civ 2 on CD rather than online). Simple reason - if the company selling the game goes out of business, then I can still play the game without needing to worry about online activation or similar crap. I've seen far too many companies go under to put my faith in a developer, even EA....

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

You must mean like the magical charms the lady across the street sold you. (ie doesn't)
I don't really think I have to mention what happened when HL2 came out...

Must I also mention the "Triton" game download service closing down and leaving thousands of Prey players unable to use their legally purchased product? (especially frustrating since people that bought a copy at the local store could still play)
(The link is in hebrew, so most of you shouldn't bother entering http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif)

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I saw an article about some better way of using e-books, but until the, reading books on computer screen?? don't be silly, and it has nothing to do with computer games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm putting things on the point a bit, but its really weird why when we have an internet that can easily handle gigabyte downloads, heck pirates been doing that for years, we can't get our games online.

As for steam problems, yepp, but they got really overloaded , I can understand that.
since then, its been running okay, my Space Empires V copy updated itself automatically even.

As for poor online sellers, yes they exist, there are a few probably, but thats an online sales problem in general.

Also there are some really unreasonable copy protection schemes going on, they only really hurt the consumer, not the pirates it seems.

Regards
Janster

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I would argue that it is a good approach. If you buy some product and you realize you don't like it you can return it back to the retailer. Computer games somehow are exception from that (ok, usually you can return them back, but it's a bit of a hassle). So if the publisher/developer don't mind not getting money from people who tried the game and didn't like I support them in that decision.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Hi all.

It is always interesting to read threads like these. you know, we have a very different philospohy on our games than most. But we analyze what is happening, what people are saying and then we look at the reality. So far, we haven't seen that making a game downloadable adds to sales, at least not in the way you hope it would. Janster, don't you miss out on games if the only way you would buy them is by download? Someone here (wait, that was me!) said that if you had bought the game the day you started this thread, you would be playing it now. I guess to each his own and I don't fault you for your dl fanatacism, but Dominions 3 won't be available in a download version as there are no plans for that at all.

Happy Gaming!

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

You're citing "unfair", abusively restrictive d/l systems that don't allow you to make a CD yourself or limit your freedom to use the game in a way or another.
But if you buy and d/l from Matrix, Stardock or Ageod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif , you'll get a "normal", unrestricted install file that you can backup and don't have to worry for online activation or special upgrade system.
So it's not really an argument against game d/l...

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Just like someone above, I'm waiting for the right hardware. I'll still be reading paper books for a while, but only because of their present availablity.
As soon as I bought my music player (I refrain from using mp3 because I bought mine for oggs and Linux support) I said all cds goodbye. I only buy music cds when it's the only way to get the music I want, or I particularly respect the band. The device would fit in my mouth assuming I'd want to put it there. And it easily holds equivalent of 10 audio cds at a time. No one wants plastic, fragile and vulnerable to oxidization cds. No wonder recording industry is so desperate.
The funniest of all, sound quality is damn good, significantly better than on my PC's ac97.
---------------
Now back to topic.

Some people make it sound like putting Dominions3 on torrent and selling only patches* err I mean cdkeys would help piracy.
Don't delude yourself. It took my friend one day to find and download full version of Dominions3. Yes, I know this post will be edited soon, but it had to be said.
If Dominions3 was available for sale/download, people who pirate it could buy it instead.

I'm still waiting for my copy of Dominions3 to arrive. I paid for it on 17th, and Tuxgames is supposed to have it on 13th. All excitement is long gone. Blood and souls for round pieces of plastic !@ YeEeeaaH !
---------
Additional benefits of electronic selling:

- no need to manufacture cd's. (result: the game is cheaper)
- no need to store cd's. It costs money, too (result: the game is cheaper)
- you need electronic activation anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but you couldn't patch Dominions2 offline).
-----------

Ultimately, it's convenience for seller versus convenience for customer. Download is convenient for customer. Shipping is convenient for seller, it seems. I suppose making customers happier doesn't pay off.

As for the manual, as someone already pointed out, hybrid solutions are possible (pdf early, just manual sent later).

------------
* a typo caused by being lost in thoughts, but EA Games actually makes you pay for patches. With money and sanity.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I mentioned and cdkeys. But I didnt mention anything about it helping piracy. I just mentioned it because it would be an easier distribution to get into and IMHO it doesnt hurt things any more than any other download distribution does.

Thats often said but doesnt tend to be true. There are people who will cross the line, and those that wont. Keeping it clear that piracy is theft tends to do the most good there.

MAYBE you could say LESS need to manufacture and store but I doubt it. The numbers that have to be done in batches are preset by most companies so I think that would stay about the same.

A crude way of putting it but true enough. There is quite abit of layout involved with digital downloads, and some major chance taking. So unless they can justify all of that with abit more than "it will make some customers happier" then it wouldnt make much sense for a company to do it. You might as well say they should give it away for free.

Patches and demos have gotten large. They have a measureable cost now to distribute them. Many companies are beginning to charge for access. Or for "faster service access without a waiting line" which amounts to basically the same thing.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

IIRC, you could. Dom2 only connected to the server for a key-check when trying to play multiplayer.


No. People who pirate it would continue to do so. Reasons I heard so far were always along the line of "too expensive", "only play it for a few days anyway" or "why buy it when you get it for free".

It might be that SOME people would buy it instead, those that can't get any retailer to ship it to them. But then I can already bet that you would need more than just credit card or paypal options for them to be able to pay, even if they want to.


Digital distribution can work, but as pointed out, it simply isn't as easy to do as you say.

My personal problem: With the rare and unexpected exception of UBIs German online shop, every single company expected me to pay with credit card. I don't have one. I don't know anybody who has one and would use it online. Add that to the fact that I'd really rather have a solid DVD case with the real CD than some self-burnt stuff. It just looks better on your CD shelf.


I'm no technophobe, I have my diploma in computer-science. But maybe because of that, I also see the problems companies have to face when they try to establish a solution for downloadable content. And my experiences so far (steam, ubi, even microsofts MSDNAA) tend to sway me in the direction of saying: Sometimes, the 'slow' way is better.

If anybody comes in and sees my LEGALLY self-burnt copy of XP, how do I convince him that it is, in fact, legally downloaded and burnt? I have nothing to it but my word and a textfile that includes my name and a license key. If it were delivered (could have been, if I had been willing to pay extra), I would have a CD with that holographic stuff and a 'more real' license.


So, unless I have no other choice (UBI and the Pe-2 addon for Pacific Fighters) I will ALWAYS have my software ordered and delivered the old way.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I don't see how spreading FUD can be good. Piracy is copyright infringement. Theft is the act of taking something from someone unlawfully. When I take something from someone, he loses it. That's not the case with unathorised copying. You can argue about lost sales, but you can't prove anything, especially exact numbers. Movie critics should be put to jail, too, because they often cause much more lost sales to movie theaters. Software piracy is a crime with no victim, especially if the pirate is simply not able to purchase the thing.

It's not just money. In Poland, for example, online (abroad) payments are really hard to perform. Banks set prohibitive prices and require extra paperwork. It took me months to find a colleague whose father has a 'good enough' credit card. Not because I'm too young (22), but because it's a lot of beaurocracy and extra fees.
One thing piracy bashers consistently fail to mention is that vast majority of software pirates (especially gamers) are 13-17 years old. When you're older, studying, working (or both, like me) you don't have as much time for games. Guess what, you can't have a credit card if you're <18.

Piracy can work as a sort of advertisment, too.
And I think it was our beloved Bill who said he'd rather have people pirate windows than use linux. Charming, eh ?

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I dont think that holds up but fine, change it to being illegal then. The thing is that most of the losses being avoided are by legal owners copying software for good friends (called casual copying) so most of the efforts to fight it are simple copy protection and clarity of the crime. Piracy isnt as big a subject, nor as big a crime effort as most people think. Also, this isnt an open enough forum to discuss piracy. Join me in the alt.hackers newsgroup (I host their site) and we can discuss it more.

Im older than computers. Ive been on the internet since before it was the internet. Ive heard all the argruments and seen all of the data. It doesnt amount to much.
(where can you not have a credit card if you are under 18?)

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Actually, if you know where you can get a pirated version of the game, it might be worthwhile to point out to Shrapnel exactly where that is, so they can do something about it.
And no, I don't mean a lawsuit, they could just ask the website to remove the link, I think that the same was done with GalcivII and a website that hosted a link to a torrent for the game, where they asked the site to remove the links, and they were gone.

And since I just said that, a nice response from shrapnel telling us who to contact in this case would be nice (it could also say something like "We can't do anything so don't bother" or "WE'LL BURN YOU ALIVE")

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

As far as I'm informed most European banks would only give you a credit card once you're past 18 and have a job.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Hmm in the US anyone can get a credit card. Of course if you are under 18 and have to get your parents to sign for everything and they refuse, or you have zero credit rating, it might seem impossible but that doesnt mean there is a rule about it. Under those conditions anyone would have trouble getting a card but age has nothing to do with it. Just say your broke. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

I mentioned Star Dock http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Even so, a file I can make a CD from is fair enough, assuming I have a CD burner. The problem is not so much the download itself, as the protection methods in the Download - you can make a CD copy of HL2, but your still dependent on Steam being up to actually activate it.
There's also the whole ownership thing. I'd rather have a nice CD case, with a manual I can flick through on the train and whatever other goodies are shoved in there than a bunch of binary any day.
How about the developer who doesn't get paid because the game isn't selling? Or his kids & wife who lose their home because he lost his job? Like it or not, the second you pirate the game, your making yourself implicit in those kind of effects.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

No they don't - not if a company is willing to see them put on bit-torrent.

Frankly, given the _major_ success of pkzip, list.exe, etc, on shareware (both Phil and Vernor made _millions_; also authors of Telix and at least a couple dozen more programs) I'm surprised that more niche publishers aren't willing to give it a try.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

Eh, I once had a wonderful friend named Tho (The Homeless One) who went to college at 15. Never mind that life was a major struggle for her at that point (good looking / mature enough to be attractive to most guys/some girls, too young to drink or date them, too young to be taken seriously once people learned her age). Thing was, she was a college student at 15. Got about 10 pre-approved credit card offers, didn't require parental approval, income verification, anything. She was a bit more mature than most, didn't ruin her life with them - but imagine the ones like her that did.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

How about the developer who doesn't get paid because the game isn't selling? Or his kids & wife who lose their home because he lost his job? Like it or not, the second you pirate the game, your making yourself implicit in those kind of effects.

[/quote]

For Dog's sake, please bother yourself to _read_ something regarding copyright. If nothing else, the bit where copyright (and patents) were implemented to _encourage_ invention and creativity, not to stifle them.

Then note : if I _steal_ your car, you can't use it. You can't sell it. If I could _copy_ your car, you could still use it. You could still sell it. If I were the type to _pay_ for your car (or a song, book, game, that turns out to be a POS), I would have paid for it even after copying it. If I'm _not_ the type to pay for it, I wouldn't buy/pay for it anyway.

(Yes, over-simplification - if there is _free_ beer, and it is good beer, a large number of college age (and other) idiots are going to slurp it down, no matter what, even if there's _better_ beer that costs a nickel a glass. But we're not typing beer.)

In addition : pay attention to authors, game developers, and musical artists, many of whom say the _industry_ is the pirates/thieves. I've seen this from all three categories, but can only refer you to Courtney Love's "diatribe" on music piracy, in which she castigated BMG, Sony, etc, and _NOT_ the pirates.

Re: Downloadable retail needed?
 

The questions isn't whether copying information without an authorization to do so is or isn't "good" or "fair". The question is whether it qualifies as "theft".

It used to be - and most legal systems in the world are tailored to deal with this other, older world - that making a working copy of anything required money/skill/talent/effort/resources. Therefore, it was basically sufficient to punish the people who would take the physical object from someone else - with the exception of, essentially, texts (books, plays, whatever), which never cost that much to produce (as text, not as printed books).

Now, with the advent of "information technology", the situation has changed - some pieces of information can cost considerable amount of effort to produce, and virtually nothing to copy. The thing is, legal systems all over the world are way behind in catching up with this change - and we're stuck with improper words like "theft" to describe an activity that has major differences with what used to be called this; the thing with information being that (barring complex quantum mechanics setups) it can be duplicated perfectly at virtually no cost, and without depriving anyone of it.

But, basically, this is not the place for such discussions (and English, not being my main language, is not the most comfortable for me to hold such discussions).