Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Hi to all :-)

after three unsucessful games, I have finally had a good one with Ulm MA.
I am going to start a new game soon, and I would like to build an immobile and imprisoned pretender with a high dominion, strong dominion scales, and a bless strategy. I wonder which nation I should use. I think Tien Chi has strong sacred units and very diversified magic which I like. I have tried an Oracle with A4, S4, N4, D3, +3 Productivty, +2 Order, +3 Growth, -2 Misfortune, Dominion 7.
What do you think of this?

What other nation/pretender could I use also?
I think Bandar Log also has strong sacred units, or maybe Vanheim...

Thanks for the input!

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Immobile isnt always the best for that. Is that a role-playing thing that makes you want it?

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

well, actually no!
Just that I was looking for a way to have as much points as possible for the pretender's creation and immobile seemed a good way for that. Maybe I should look for a nation which has Cold or Heat so that I could have more "free" points.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

I've been very pleased with both of my sacred-unit heavy mid-period Ermor builds.

At first glance, the Shadow Vestel appears to be a young naked girl - appealing, but not militarily useful.

The first thing to note is that her "Shadow Spear" gives her a damage of 14, so she can hurt mid-period heavy infantry just fine. She'll have trouble hurting certain heavy cavalry units, but with a water blessing she'll manage.

The second thing is that "Power of the Sepulchre" is pre-researched and gives them a decent attack rating.

Finally, they're cheap and you buy ten per turn.

With an Astral-9 blessing and a Water-9 blessing (achievable, along with modest income scales and a dominion strength of 10, out of an imprisoned Oracle), she becomes authentically tough, in spite of her lack of a protection stat. Ignoring 3/4 of all incoming hits is even better when you get to do it twice. The combination of water-9 and power of the sepulchre gives her enough AP to not worry too much about archers, and the astral blessing makes her essentially immune to banishment.

You can live without the astral-9 blessing - a dominion-7,water-9 blue dragon gives you early expansion like crazy. But I think I prefer the imprisoned Oracle.

Kailasa (early period) has frickin' awesome sacred units - consider Death-9 or Fire-9, bless those longbowmen. Bandar Log's sacred units have never impressed me.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Immobility is a perfectly fine choice for an imprisoned pretender. By the time it escapes, you'll have Teleport anyway, which is what you'd have to do if you wanted to get it to the front lines anyway.

I would, however, go for an Astral of at least 6 on an Oracle - it's only 40 points and it's an additional +1 MR on your blessing and the ability to make a Ring of Wizardry or Wrath of God straight off with no equipment. That's awesome.

-Frank

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

The Divine Glyph isn't a bad choice if available, it's cheap and starts with Fire and Astral which are both good blesses.

The Fountain of Blood is really cheap and Blood isn't a bad bless to take, but I wouldn't take it all the way to 9, 4-6 is good. Of course, you won't get much out of it unless you're a blood nation as it'll likely be your only blood mage for a very long time, so for other nations you're just putting points in blood for the bless. You'll have points to spare with an imprisoned Fountain of Blood though and bumping it up to that is cheap.

I don't know, I don't really like immobile pretenders, they have really limited item slots so boosting is harder than normal. They get you a lot of points though, but most nations don't need super scales and a super bless (Abysia is good for immobile/imprisoned), you can usually take something more moderate and still be fine while getting a pretender that's a lot more useful. I don't think it's that much fun to wait around 30 some turns for a pretender that doesn't really do anything but the occasional ritual spell and forge a few items, but that's just me.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Holy mother of god! shadow vestals are recruitable now, i loved them in dom2 when i could only get 2 per turn but now...

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

I believe that Vanheim and Neifelheim are considered the most overpowered nations when it comes to blesses. So if you want an easy game you should perhaps try one of those? The traditional bless for the Vanhiem Vans is F9W9. Not sure what it is for Neifelheim.

As to your pretender, if you are just using it as a bless platform, pick one that has the highest level of magic paths you are going to push up to level 9.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Actually its vanheim and helheim then niefelheim but anyway. As ironhawk said the traditional van/hel bless is f9w9 granting outstanding attack, defence, speed, amount of attacks and damage capability to already strong, stealthy units with glamour.

For niefelheim its usually some combination of water, nature and earth (usually earth and nature). When im playing niefelheim i like this build:
Cyclops
Imprisoned
e9n6
Dom 5
order 3
prod 1
cold 3
growth 1
misfortune 2
magic 1

He has a very nice bless for them, granting my giants 18 prot, 4 reinvig(they have 4 enc), 6 or 7(cant remember which) regen while still having nice scales, good research ability, access to (very useful, especially when forging) items my nations cant forge (at turn 36 but still... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif), saves slots on my jarls who suddenly dont require (but can still use) reinvig and/or regen items.
Of course, by the time he comes out you will have plenty of research so you can use the cyclops himself as a very nasty SC (29 prot, can cast summon earth power, gaias blessing, personal regen and has other very nice stats aswell)

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Divine Emp 35 points with magic path cost of 10, astral start and 4 misc slots. Seems a no brainer.

Imprisoned, Turmoil 1, sloth 1, Misfortune 1, Drain 2, Cold 1

Income -14, Random +10 Good -13, Rp -1

Astral 9, Water 9, Dom 8

Best I would do for Mid Ermor.

Bless: Def +4, Quickness, Mr +3, Twist of fate, +2 morale

Vestal 20g 3

Ethereal, stealthy

Att Skill 16
Mr 19
Defense 20
Move 3/24

160g per turn is easy even in the beginning. They do cross the battle field very fast. However you have to hold them for the blessings and I would advise multiple Thaumaturgs or Grand Thaumaturgs to get everyone blessed.

It takes some doing but when they get moving they do seem very effective.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Try that again with a S9W9 dom10 oracle, the extra 2 per turn helps and also helps keeps numbers 'proper'

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

There must be a ramping effect on build up. The astral 3 and Dom 4 of the Oracle have a amazing effect.

It costs 230 points more for the same build!!!!!!!!!

To rephrase Oracle S9W9 Dom 10 costs 230 points less than Divine Emp with the same.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Which therefore allows you take take dom10 and better scales.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

Yes, each level added to magic/dominion above the starting level takes more and more points. For magic, it's level*8 points for each beyond base skill (except for first skill in unknown path, which uses the base path cost). So if you have S1, S2 costs 8, and S3 costs 8+16=24. For dominion, it is 7*level for each beyond base. So if you start with dominion 3, dominion 4 costs 7 additional, dominion 5 costs 7+14=21 additional. So, because the Oracle starts out with S3 instead of S1, and dominion 4 instead of dominion 2, you end up saving a lot when you take those two attributes higher on the Oracle compared to a Divine Emperor. Since you're increasing astral by 8 instead of 6, it costs 56+64=120 points more for that, and increasing dominion by 8 instead of 6, it costs 49+56=105 points more, and the Divine Emperor has a base cost of 35. So it is a difference of 260 points right there. What makes it 230 is that the Oracle has a base path cost of 40, compared to Divine Emperor's 10, which means the Oracle pays 30 more points to start out a Water path.

Check out pp 46-52 of the manual for more details on pretender creation.

Re: Building an imprisoned immobile pretender
 

As per the manual, yes.

The first additional point in a path costs either 8 (if you already have that path), or (new path cost). The additional ones cost (8 x (additional point number)) each -- ex.

Oracle starts with S3, so S3 -> S9 is 6 levels = 8*(1+2+3..+6) = 168. Oracle doesn't have water at all, so W9 from nothin' is (new path cost, which I don't remember) + 8 * (2+...+9).

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Ok, I Have tried a few more builds:

1. Niefelheim: Son of Niefel (No oracle for them!), W4, D4, N4, Dom8, Ord+3, Prod+3, G+3, Cold3, Mis-3, Emprisoned
This one looks nice although I miss Astral magic; Above all since I don't think Niefelheim has an easy access to it, right?

2. Man: Imprisoned Oracle, A5, S9, Dom9, Ord+3, Prod+3, G+3, Drain3, Mis3.
The thing is, as I am doing this one, I don't think that Man has great sacred units...I will have to check that.

Maybe Tien Chi was not such a bad idea after all since the Warrior of 5 elements looks like a bargain at 25 Gold and 6 resources.

I am going to try Kailasa also...

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

What purpose is this pretender supposed to serve? The growth 3 is almost certainly a waste, since it's little more than a 6% income boost, while I'd check to see if your production of Jotun skinshifters, Niefel Giants, and Niefel Jarls is ever limited by resources, or just by gold before I took production 3. You could take an E9, N6 Cyclops and get a much superior bless effect if you didn't take the growth of productivity scales.

Niefelheim has the Gygja, who have a very good chance of getting astral magic as their random pick.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

True, I guess I am still influenced by my Ulm game where my troops where very resources-intensive and I had way too much gold compared to my resources. Thus, I might lower the productivity and growth sclaes.

But I think I am goind to start with ManLA actually since it has the Warden which looks like a good sacre unit, albeit expensive!

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

I don't think Wardens are all that great. They're stats aren't anything special (in fact, the Defender is almost universally better). They're stealthy, which is good especially since they have ranged attacks, good stats for stealthy units, so they can generally handle PD pretty well, but can't be blessed if you use them for raiding unless their leader is a prophet, which is bad. I wouldn't focus a bless strategy around them unless you plan on forging some Black Hearts.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

I don't know if native populations change significantly in LA (I've played all my games EA so far, I think), but in EA I seem to find enough populations with stealthy priests (usually they're also low mages).

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Amazons, Tribal poptypes with mages and druid provinces all become much rarer in later ages. I'd quess trolls and cavemen and such disappear completely. Hoburgs of later ages have Hog Knights and such, and I'm not sure if they have those cheap priests any more.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Black Hearts give stealth?! I had no idea there was an iem in the game that gave stealth!

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Not that i know of but maybe it does.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

I thought it gave stealth and assassination.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

no, it gives assasination to already stealthy commanders (or we would have stealthy golems, niefel jarls and tartarians)

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Only assassination. Lord Warden Assassins might be worth some kind of a bless, though. Fire 4 would help, and any Death could be nasty.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

The problem is iirc Lord wardens dont have priestly powers.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Ah, that's true. They couldn't bless themselves. They could make fine assassins (starting with a crossbow AND a greatsword is nice), but probably not good enough to make a Black Heart strategy feasible.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

I guess so. That's kind of lame though still.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

Not really, it means you can make assasins out of things like harvesters of sorrow, specters, van commadners, heliophagi ect.

Re: Building an imprisoned (immobile) pretender
 

You could make one a prophet. That's not something I would build a pretender around. There's always being lucky and finding an indy blood mage, which can be difficult but not impossible and certainly not reliable, but for a solid raiding squad a Warden prophet could lead them.

I think there's better options for LA Man though than having one super bless raiding squad as the thing you'd be building towards and relying on to win the game, but the option's always there with a moderate bless too.