Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

The human player always gets the first shot. Especially in closeup battles, e.g. at wormholes, this is a severe disadvantage for the AI, isn't it ?

I don't know who shoots first, the attacker or the defender of a sector? It seems to be more logical to give the advantage of surprising attack to the one who enters a sector, unless the defender can't be detected due to cloaking.

Anyway, I think the AI strength would improve if this disadvantage could be changed.

Any thoughts ?

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

I think precedence is set by the order in which players are added. Manually add the races you want with yourself Last. That way they always get to move and shoot first.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

This is a step backwards from SEIII - I remember getting first shot on that game was all- important.

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCC:
I think precedence is set by the order in which players are added. Manually add the races you want with yourself Last. That way they always get to move and shoot first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just if you play only against human beings... which is also unfair (simultaneous movement setting is recommended, but I don't like it because you always loose movement points if you enter an unexplored system). But if an AI enters your sector then you ALWAYS get the first shot with turn based setting.

A possible circumvention could be if you voluntarily skip your turn in tactical combat, a hard test to freeze your finger on the trigger if an overwhelming fleet attacks you... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

Does anybody know for sure, how the result with regard to the first shot is calculated in strategic combat? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
The first shot/move is a BIG advantage in WP combat but not so big in other types. If you take out the AI leader ship on the first shot in a WP battle you get two shots/moves without return fire. This can decide a battle....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive my ignorance (I have been playing this game for quite a while now), but how DO you determine the AI fleet leader??? There are some good AI's out there now and with a few bonuses and stuff, they (AI's) can and have become quite respectable opponents...(contrary to some other Posts).

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

Unless you memorize the formations I have no idea how you tell which one is the fleet leader. Maybe you can tell by watching the AI move. The first to move is the leader, I think.
I have destroyed the one I thought was the leader and seen the AI freeze a number of times. Hopefully this is something that can be changed in a future patch.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

The leader has a blue fleet tag, rather than a red one... just like your own fleets.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

This entire discussion seems to be ignoring weapons range. Whoever moves into range first is going to get first shot.

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Cap'n Q


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

I agree except in WP combat where you start at close range.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

All right, we've got two situations which I think would need a change in combat handling:

1) Cloaked ship enters a sector of ship whithout the appropriate scanner, discloakes (or is it uncloakes?) and surprisingly attacks the other ship.

-I would like to see a close range battle with the first shot given to the ex-cloaked ship. Or even better would be if the ship could enter the combat screen with cloak remaining, and just when it shoots a weapon it should uncloak, like: sneak to the blind ship, uncloak, FIRE... (like in MOO2).

2) Not cloaked ship (for cloaked ship, see 1.) comes out of the wormhole, another ship waits at this side of the wormhole.

-Close range battle, ok. But who should get the advantage of the first shot? Maybe the wormhole-traveller would be more surprised by ships waiting on the other side with laser banks unlocked and targeted to the exit of WH. Or maybe the defender of the WH would be tired, already waited some months w/o any wormhole activity, turned his ship towards the sun, hypnotized... and BAMM, attack from the buttocks... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

Maybe an initiative roll could be made for warp point combat or just random choice.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
Maybe an initiative roll could be made for warp point combat or just random choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is what I proposed to MM long ago, but it hasn't reached high priority yet. Have a random chance, heavily influenced by crew/fleet experience and cloaking status.

PvK

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

The first shot/move is a BIG advantage in WP combat but not so big in other types. If you take out the AI leader ship on the first shot in a WP battle you get two shots/moves without return fire. This can decide a battle.
I think the defender should get the first shot/move unless the attacker cannot be seen.
I don't know if this can be changed though.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2) Not cloaked ship (for cloaked ship, see 1.) comes out of the wormhole, another ship waits at this side of the wormhole.

-Close range battle, ok. But who should get the advantage of the first shot? Maybe the wormhole-traveller would be more surprised by ships waiting on the other side with laser banks unlocked and targeted to the exit of WH. Or maybe the defender of the WH would be tired, already waited some months w/o any wormhole activity, turned his ship towards the sun, hypnotized...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It depends on how the wormholes manifest. If the wormhole becomes "active" well before the ship comes through, the defender has time to prepare its shot. If the incoming ship just pops in without warning, whoever reacts faster has the advantage.

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Cap'n Q


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

Wormhole Theory, I'm not a scientist, just a technician, but if you enter a wormhole I think you will leave it at the other end in almost the same moment. This would Last not even a fraction of a nano-second. To "see" any activity would be very hard I guess.

OTOH, it's just a wrinkle in space, so maybe you can see "the other side" with your bare eyes because it's just a few yards away from your point?

[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>OTOH, it's just a wrinkle in space, so maybe you can see "the other side" with your bare eyes because it's just a few yards away from your point?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SE3's description of WPs made it sound like they were invisible until decent tech ships got out into the system.
Ships had to "push through", to me that shounds like there would be a noticable effect on the other side just before the ship arrives.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

As a Star Trek follower, I am a supporter of the manifestation theory and therefore support the defender having an elevated chance of getting first shot....(Unless of course we are talking about a cloaked worm hole traveller.....)

The defender shoots first principle is probably even stronger if there are lots of defensive assets present (what the hell do you lock onto first? the mine directly in front of you, the satellites to the left, the Defense Base to the right or the Superdreadnought that is spewing weapons fire at you?

Or am I really talking about some form of combined arms initiative bonus here instead?

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:
This entire discussion seems to be ignoring weapons range. Whoever moves into range first is going to get first shot.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a meeting engagement against the AI, I can ALWAYS get in the first shot. I simply keep my ships beyond the movement distance + max weapons range of the AI. Then on my turn I close the range and deliver the first salvo. This works as long as the max weapons range of the AI ships is not greater than your ship’s movement distance + your max weapons range. Works every time without fail.

Re: Severe combat disadvantage for AI
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Omega:
... I simply keep my ships beyond the movement distance + max weapons range of the AI ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is another problem for the AI. The AI ships always blindly attack, don't calculate weapon ranges and movement like a human player would do.

Good point !



[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 27 May 2001).]