Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

If you want Kwok's Balance Mod to become stock SE5 like it was meant to please sign this petition. Hopefully if enough people sign we can convince Aaron it is a good idea.

http://www.spaceempires.net/balance/

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

But does Captain Kwok want to? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I figure this would mean that Aaron will have to both keep unbugging his game AND updating the "stock formerly known as the Balance Mod". As it is now we have twice the manpower on the same set of code. Also they apparently have different views on how the game should be played, and I prefer Kwok's.

Now of course if they both work together and Kwok gets a monetary compensation for his hard work then I'm all for it.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Right at the top of the Balance Mod home page, it specifically says that it was intended to replace the stock data files.

Quote: "The original purpose of this mod was to supplant the default data files that are provided with Space Empires V with balanced files that retained the spirit of the standard game."

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Yes Kwok wants to thats why he created the Balance Mod with the help of some other SEV beta testers was to create a replacement for stock SEV which was lacking in many areas. Updating work to the new stock could be done by Aaron very easily, the concepts will already be layed out and won't be hard to update for the various data file changes that occur in new patches.

Let me restate clearly Balance Mod was created to become stock SEV. Aaron just never got the push he needed to accept it, and that is what this petition is for.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Yes I have read that the Balance Mod was supposed to be included in stock. It's just that I feel a bit awkward petitioning for person_1's work to become part of person_2's, without knowing without a doubt that person_1 is still interested at the time of the petition. The request does not come from Kwok nor is the petition hosted on his site, he may already be like "hey sc**w SEV and Aaron too for yelling at me over the phone" or something like that for all I know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Other than this - yes, I want to play the Balance Mod everytime I start SEV.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I agree. It would have been nice if someone e-mailed me prior to creating a petition on for the Balance Mod... I would have preferred to continue my e-mail correspondance with Aaron first about the subject rather than resort to an "antagonistic" approach.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

You can keep doing that, none of this has gone to Aaron yet and it was never going to without your direct approval but its good to gauge how interested people are.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

So does that mean you don't want us to sign the petition?

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Honestly, I think it's too late for the Balance Mod to replace stock. It really had to be done before SE:V was released. To supplant stock at this point would be unfair to players who like stock, as they would no longer see there version of the game supported. Right now, the Balance Mod is easily available for anyone that wishes to play a different game and as such, both Stock and Balance Mod versions continue to be supported. I think at this point it would probably be best to include the Balance Mod with SE:V as an optional game type. I don't see any advantge on a community level to do otherwise.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I don't know. Not having it stock makes it somewhat more difficult for people who want to make mods with the Balance mod as a base rather than stock. Also, stock still got major issues with for instance the AI's making crippling pacts with each other and such.

There's a whole lot of people out there who will be 'stuck with stock' and never bother with mods or looking at the game forums, too. If the Balance mod generally holds a higher quality than stock, like it does now( remember what Aaron said about modders doing things he could never have time for or do himself?) that's really too bad for the average SEV player.

I see your points. I just think it'd be worth it.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

That is exactly how I feel. 90% of players if not more do not play any mods all they play is stock and the current stock is not good enough for the 90% of players who do not have mods. Also many mods use stock as their base and having such a sad stock will hurt alot of mods. While mods can use the Balance Mod as their base it just doesn't work as well. The ammount of people who like the current stock(who knows why) are far out numbered by the people that would benifit from having Balance Mod become stock.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I fully agree; in fact that was the very reasoning I had when I signed the petition!

Geez CW that twice in one day I have agreed with you. Did I wake up in an alternate dimension this morning? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

BALANCE>STOCK.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I see the points you're making - but I think everyone (not just 90%) could be better served if the Balance Mod was just included as a game type with SE:V itself - either through a future patch or expansion.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Did everyone you know have a goatee this morning? If yes than you might be in an alternate dimension

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Everyone would be better served with Balance Mod being stock and stock being the extra gametype, we shall call it old stock or Unbalance Mod, hmm I think I may have something there

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

And, since its higher in the alphabet, it'd show up by default in the mod list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

If both are included then what does it matter about the name? Both would be available for the user to choose from when starting a new game.

Also consider by making the Balance Mod "stock" then it becomes many times more of a challenge to update/revise in a dynamic manner. And let me assure you the BM still has some ways to go itself...

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Ahh but for mod makers we dont want a dynamic stock we want something that will stay basically the same. The current stock works fine for that but is [censored] in every other department. We need a stable and balanced stock and making the Balance Mod stock is the best way to do that. It doesn't have to be perfect it just has to be better than the current stock which it is and by the time the next patch is released I bet you can have the remaining bugs smoothed out, and if you need help getting it done in that time frame I will assist. It doesn't have to be perfect, I mean look at stock SE4 it had problems and some balance issues but not nearly as bad as stock SE5.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I think Kwok's point is the Balance Mod isn't ready to be stable yet.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Personlly wail I like the Balance mod. In most of the things it dose. I perfered the higher levels of tech under the stock setup. I could take a smaller ship and win 9 times out of 10 in the stock. And I will also say I have not had time to look at the balance mod.

There are things I would like to see in there but since we have not gotten all the information to add them in yet.

One of the things I saw in one of the other mods for SE4 was Planets was them having some random ablitly. Such as could hold more cargo. act as storages for other stuff also. Which is not in the balance mod.

There are other things That I will think about and ask The captain about when I have more time.

But for the most part I think it should be add as a stander mod that is updated with SE5 and in the patches for now.....

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

This is one of the main problems with stock and why I will never play it.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Current stock is basically an Unbalance mod to Kwokstock.

I think we need this to be included in the next patch.
I also think it would be best to also have the current stock stick around.

Having two selections by default can only help to encourage people to download more.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Let Kwok do his thing unhindered or burdened by the "offical line". It's not like it's going to be difficult to incorporate the Balance Mod into other mods. You start making CK's mod the "offical" AI and now he has a heap of pressure on him. Unfair.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Be sure to check the tp before you start! Nothing worse than running out of tp in the middle of a good bm!

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

The only problem here is that most serious modders will want to use Balance as the basis for thier mods. This works until Balance gets updated, at which point there is no clean and easy way to update the new mod's files accordingly. There is also the fact that most mods will be replicating Balance mod files with thier intalls, which wastes disk space. This would not be a problem if Balance was Stock.

If Kwok doesn't want Balance to become Stock, maybe there is a way to make the process of updating mods based on Balance easier? Perhaps make Balance mod something like the old Imagemod, and have it replace Stock files, but still be optional. After all, people who play Balance mod rarely ever go back to Stock. But there's no reason there can't be a way to uninstall Balance just in case.

EDIT: It occurs to me that Balance mod could be included in the new "Community Bonus Pack" or whatever that is being worked on as the SE5 equivalent of Imagemod.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

It should be included with SEV but not as a replacement. I play both.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

This is what CVS and other source control is made for... I used it extensively in the original devnullmod and if you want to use a dynamic mod as a basis for your own mod, I would highly suggest learning to use a source control system. WinCVS is free and easy to learn...

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Once you've gotten started on your mod, you are very very unlikely to start over from scratch/stock again.

You will either add the new change a s a good idea, or more likely ignore it since it dosen't apply because of the changes you've made already.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I have used WinCVS in my work on the ChaosUT2 mod, so I know how useful it can be. I hadn't actually considered using it with SE5 modding but it's a good idea.

SJ has a point too, however as my mod (Starscape) tends to be episodic, I often will make major changes to it between episodes. During SE4, I would incorporate new changes in the Imagemod into Starscape during the inter-episode interims, and remember as several patches for SE4 were released throughout Starscape's two most recent episodes (S6 and S7). Originally, Starscape used some data from various SE4 mods as a starting point. This worked well for the most part but also muddled the modding environment. As a newbie, I let it slide as part of the "learning experience".

This time around, I would very much like to dev Starscape from scratch, but as I don't like the Stock files, I feel I don't have much choice but to base it off Balance mod.

However, this is all very tentative as I have not actually begun development of Starscape:SE5 and do not intend to until SE5 is patched a bit further and I see what kinds of things come out of the community in the coming month(s). This will also give me some time to experiment with sandbox mods and get more accustomed to the way SE5 works before committing myself to what I know will be a large project.

So, that said, I am interested in this issue but I suppose I don't quite lean one way or the other on it yet.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Isn't that contradictory? How do you make it from scratch while basing it off something else, stock or otherwise?

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I don't know about you but I don't consider Stock to be a mod. The point I was making is that I was planning to do it from scratch but given the state of Stock, I wouldn't do that unless Balance replaced Stock.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

"From scratch" implies, well, from scratch. Like I'm doing with my mod- there are *no* elements of stock in it, except for the planets and some systems.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

For example, when I wrote CBmod, I did it mostly from scratch... IE, I started with a set of blank files and a couple pages of hand written notes and typed stuff in.
The mostly part is because I started with settings, intel, systemtypes and sectortypes, and merely edited them heavily.

The most difficult part of doing a mod from scratch is that you have quite a bit of work before you can do much more than load the main screen and check for typos.
The benefits of having a blank slate are quite significant if you've planned out your universe physics and balance beforehand.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Hmm, I guess my definition of mod is different. I suppose it would be more accurate to say I had planned to develop Starscape as a mod of the stock game, rather than a total conversion. There's no need to reinvent the wheel with Starscape. I'd build it on stock, but since I'd rather have a balanced basis for my mod, it looks like I'll be using balance instead.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Well, to get technical, what SJ is describing could be called a TC (Total Conversion), rather than a mod.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

In my terminology what SJ described is a Total Conversion. To me a Mod barrows some parts from Stock or another Mod. When I hear ‘from scratch’ it tells me that one or more files have been created from a blank text sheet. In my humble opinion and using the Mod I am working on as an example, the Components, Tech Areas, Vehicle Sizes, Governments, and Society Types are all from scratch. So basically I am just reiterating what Phoenix-D said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I do not think it should replace stock. It should be an additon.

Balance Mod
Stock Mod

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Total Conversion == Mod

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I just want all the game-muddling bugs fixed. <:o Maybe everybody could work on that first. :]

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Only Aaron Hall can work on those.

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Yes, technically a TC is a mod, however in a TC the game is basically rebuilt, very little of the original game content is left in place. In general usage a mod (as opposed to a TC) doesn't change things as drastically. Or:

TC == Mod, but, Mod != TC

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

Tesco Lives...!!!!!

Re: Balance Mod to become Stock SEV Petition
 

I just played the Balance Mod and I have to say, I really like lit. The tech tree is more like SE4, which I'm more accustomed to, and the tech balance really helps the AI build effective ships.

As I recall, back in the old days of SE4, MM used someone from this forumn's numbers for the anti-proton beam -- and credited them for it.

We can hope that the same might happen with SE5. But MM may want to keep most of the flavor of SE5 (i.e. the infinite tech tree) just the way it is.