Luck test, v 1.00
 

Nations:
MA Agartha
awake Oracle with dominion 7
Growth 3, Prod 3, Luck 3, Drain 2

MA Jotunheim
awake Monolith with dominion 7
Order 3, Prod 1, Cold 2

amount of starting provinces: 9
No provinces conquered, no provinces lost, no magic researched, no units recruited.
In the end, Jotunheim had 51 010 gp, income 1024, upkeep 41, 273 gems on turn 50.
Agartha had 58 272 gp, income 1322, upkeep 176, +1 Earth gem from Caspar's Cave event, and 433 gems, 8 slaves (after subtracting income of one extra site they started with) on turn 50.

Agartha's income was 999 at some point. I think this test has proven that GROWTH can be good i multiplayer games as well! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Agartha:

Hurricane,
brigands,
brigands,
hailstorm, -80 gp, -3% pop,
hurricane,
superstition,
strange events,
Caspar of the Cave,
locusts (-100 gp)




Gifts from Shadow Seers (2 pearls, trinket, 200 gp),
Magic Item (trinket),
Witch's curse (5 nat),
Air gems (5),
Witch's curse (4 nat),
Fertility Festival (???) and Nat gems on same turn, +10 N,
air gems (6),
tax collection (200gp),
49 Flagellants,
pagan festival, dominion down, claims +growth but neutral growth
Astral gems (7),
Water gems (4),
2 x death gems, 18 altogether,
festival (+faith - in capital! dom ~7 to 9),
74 militia,
immigration (50 more income than few turns before),
73 militia,
46 flagellants,
mild winter, +150 gold
Astral gems (6)
nature gems (9?)
blood slaves (8)
air gems (13?)
+15 PD
nature gems (8) /53,
income +60 gp
Great Treasures! 3000 gp, Fire Sword, 5 Fire gems
Water gems (7 )
great treasures! 3000 gp, Fire sword, 5 Fire gems
Magic item (flesh eater)
Air gems (3 gems)
73 militia
laboratory (in Amazon province!),
Nature gems,
Water gems,
Air gems,
Water gems,
200 gold,
Magic item (Horror Helm),
tax collection (200 gp),
200 gp,
61 militia,
Air gems,
witch's curse,
tax collection (+1000 gp)


Jotunheim:

brigands,
severe cold, -5% pop
hailstorm, -80 gp, -3% pop,
-200 gp,
brigands,
-5% people (blizzard)


resources,
Pirate ship (600 gold),
PD +20,
witch's curse (4 nat),
Earth gems (5),
+100 gp,
celebrant of faith (30 militia)
water gems (8)




EDITed:
starting sites changed to starting provinces, added the lines explaining the nature of the test (just income compared, in other words).

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Why such strange scales ? Scales enable and disable certain events. Why drain and productivity ?
Cold enables some events, too. Wouldn't it be better to test with two nations having similar scale preference ?

By the way, Agartha scales cost (9-2)*40 = 280.
Jotunheim scales cost (4-2)*40 = 80.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

The scales are strange, yes. That's because I had played with those scales earlier, in a blitz, and (as I thought then) didn't benefit from it. I wanted to test just WHAT kind of events Prod/Growth/Drain has. As you can see, there are quite few events for that spesific combination; most of the events were still Magic-based. All those gems... I was hoping for money (lots of it), resources, castles, temples etc. The other nation was randomly chosen, and I hoped the cold pref wouldn't make too big a difference.

Also, this was purely a TEST game. NO armies were moved at all! Starting provinces was changed to 9, but no units were recruited.

First post edited slightly.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Hmm. Are you sure both nations initially had equal (in terms of income) provinces ?
Rumor has it that you need Order for castle events.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I know for sure that Luck/Growth nation had worse income in the beginning. Under 1000 gp.

I also think lots of the better income events need Order. And some others need Death. On the other hand, some of those 200 gp income ones were about a genious prospector who found gold or some a gold vein just discovered or somesuch, and I think those are linked to Production.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Definately untrue. For the fortified city you might need order (but can get that from hostile dominion, heh heh) but there's at least one other event that gives forts that doesn't require order, might actually require unrest.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I'm pretty sure Luck will always lose to Order when it comes to money. What it can do is get you a Staff of Storms before turn 10, or something like that.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I got ring of wizardry before turn 10 in a single player game.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I agree 100% with this.

I believe yr test shows how powerful order is, gold is always useful and u never have enough. Order 3 Prod 1 is virtually equaling Prod 3, Growth 3, Luck 3.

Growth/Prod/Luck need a slight boost to be on par with order. I hate game nerfing so I won't suggest order be made weaker.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

It's easier to make Order less important, though. Also, this is just one test. I'll test other combinations too, if I won't forget it. Luck/Death could be quite potent, as an example. All those events about princes dying and such.

Also, if Magic/Drain scales affects events, I presume higher Magic scale would give even more gems. Something like Tien Chi could benefit immensely from all those gems. And of course, then there'd be a chance for those better items. Most items given by luck are trinkets and lesser items.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I'd like to see more events that give free special commanders and troops. There are some, like the ethereal assassin. More of things like that, and with more powerful troops/commanders, like a whole company of Grey Knights, etc.

They should be tied to what turn it is so as to not give someone 20 ethereal knights on turn 5, obviously.

Luck should give less gold than Order, but the other events should more than make up for that. Even if Luck was buffed quite a bit, Order would still be the safe choice: you know what it's going to do, and you get the extra gold every turn, and from every province (within your dominion).

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Well- in this test Luck got 8000 gp in bonuses on an income of about 55000. That's a 15% bonus, which is almost as much as Order gives. Add in the income boost and Luck came out ahead this time, even ignoring all the bonus gems.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Didn't Growth and Production also affect the income? Agartha had them and Jotun didn't.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Luck 3 also spent points on Growth 3 & Prod 3 in this test ...

Another quibble I have with the luck scale, you can get /unlucky/ and attacked by knights or "lucky" and get a horde of militia as followers ...wtf ...

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Yes but take the 3 growth plus 2 prod out of the equation, ie... Order 3 Prod 1 vs Luck 3 Prod 1 and the gold income from order would be considerably more.

Try order 3 prod 1 vs growth 3 prod 1 and order wins by even more probably.

Taking order 3 for alot of nations gives u a big advantage at the moment, its also 100% reliable, luck is not.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I counted 7950 gold from positive events for the Luck nation. Only events. The increased revenue from mid-point on not counted in, of course. I think that's where the 8000 gp comes in. If I hadn't taken Growth and Prod, and had had the same events, the 8000 gp would be more than the 15% order would've given. If that doesn't work, I'm too tired and shouldn't be writing anything about numbers.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Don't disrespect the free militia, for the few gold you will pay until they die, they make nice arrow-fodder to decrease casualties in more important squads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

That's kind of how I feel about it. In Dom2, they were often catastrophic because of supply issues and it was often hard to use them. Now, with the increased supply, it doesn't seem difficult to make them die usefully for my cause. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

This was such an interesting idea that I decided to do a test of my own. 4 nations, each with neutral heat scales and a dominion 7 Oracle and 2 positive scales. Arco with Order 3/ Growth 3; Pythium with Productivity 3/Growth 3, Ulm with Order 3/ Productivity 3, and Pangaea with Luck 3/Growth 3.

Initial setup was to purchase all Province Defense up to 10 and then start running turns.

Arco began with an income of 1020 and an upkeep of 25
Pythium began with an income of 733* and an upkeep of 23
Ulm began with an income of 1387 and an upkeep of 14
Pan began with an income of 931 and an upkeep of 25

* Pythium started in a swamp, they were boned.

On turn 10 (I'm controlling for upkeep):

Arco had made 9273 gold and a necromancer.
Pythium had made 6603 gold, 4 Air Gems, Boots of the Messenger, and a hero.
Ulm had made 12631 gold and 7 water gems
Pan had made 8363 gold and 4 Earth gems

On turn 20:

Arco had made 20902 gold, a necromancer, and 20 air gems
Pythium had made 13954 gold, Bartholomeus, Boots of the Messenger, and 4 Air Gems
Ulm had made 27833 gold and 16 Water Gems
Pan had made 21013 gold, 54 militia, 4 Earth Gems, 7 Nature Gems, a Hammer of the Mountains, and a Lightning Rod

On turn 30:

Arco had made 33266 gold, a necromancer, 8 Nature Gems, and 20 air gems
Pythium had made 22115 gold, Bartholomeus, Boots of the Messenger, a High Priest with 33 Militia, and 4 Air Gems
Ulm had made 44468 gold, 37 Flagellants, 4 Fire Gems, and 34 Water Gems
Pan had made 34190 gold, 54 militia, 2 Animists with a combined 40 Wolves, 60 Flagellants, 14 Fire Gems, 6 Air Gems, 11 Earth Gems, 7 Nature Gems, a Hammer of the Mountains, A Sword of Sharpness, a Fire Bola, and a Lightning Rod

So... in 30 turns we've learned what? First, we've learned that swamps are totally ***, and getting started next to a bunch of them is going to jack your income harder than any scales you could imagine.

But more importantly, we've learned that Luck is good. Growth is good. Order is good. And also that your starting setup is probably at least as important as your scales. Ulm, for instance, kept getting water gems, which I believe has something to do with owning provinces with fresh water in them.

-Frank

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Actually I don't think starting in a location effects any nation's capital. At least it shouldn't have since your income is fixed from your population and the population shouldn't be that deviantial ... still those numbers look odd ...

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Still, Ulm in there (the classical "Order/Productivity" combo) does pretty well. The initial difference in income with Pan was around 400 gold, and the final difference is of order 10000 gold over 30 turns (30x400=12000). Now, Pan got some nice boosts from random events, but still, Ulm presumably got a better start.

Now all we need is for someone bored to run this kind of test enough times that we'd have an idea of variance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

This was a 9 province start, just like the OP.

-Frank

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

I am a little surprised at how well luck/growth did. Overall thou, I personally based on Frank's test would take the 44,468 gold everytime. After all thats 10,278 gold extra over just 30 turns, nearly 25% more.

I wonder how Order 3/Luck 3 would do?

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Order and Luck are sort of a bad combination because order reduces event frequency. 25% increase in gold is nothing to sneeze at but it overlooks the fact that luck can do things for you that order can't, like get you items you can't otherwise make, improved chance of heroes, cross breeding, and other stuff not expressed in terms of gold. Sure, order/prod is probably better overall but not so much so that everyone will take order 3/misfortune 2 all the time like in dom2.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

2 players 9 provinces , just hosting

Man/ Manticore/ Dom 10/ Luck +3/ dormant

Ulm/ Manticore/ Dom 10/ Luck -3/ awake +200pts
Ulm only province left by turn 60. Other 8 taken by Indies.

Trn 40

Man
Treasury 35,926 Inc 910 Up 52
Air 98 Water 5 Astral 30 Death 7 Nature 152
27 good events 8 bad 2 mixed 3 national heroes 2 standard heroes with troops.

Ulm
Treasury 23,213 Inc 374 Up 12
Earth 203 Nature 10
8 good events 23 Bad 4 Mixed NO HEROES
4 provinces lost to Knights 1 to Barbarians 1 HELD against Villains(2 heavy inf routed them, very strange)

I suspect hidden sites had a big effect

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Keep in mind that Tien Chi has 3 different luck boosting pretenders to add on top of these figures.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Remember in the nine-province runs there's variance based on the other 8 provinces. In Trollman's run above, Arco's (order) initial advantage over Pan (luck) is too low, so Pan's initial provinces are better. Even so, it looks like only a 5% advantage so they're very close in outcome after adjustments. So far it's looking like luck is overall coming out better, although the advantage is slight and the startup and variability issues are important and difficult to catch in these tests.

Forrest's run points out a problem with these test runs - misfortunate invasions. Just "next turning" overstates their effect, because you'd actually send an army out to recover it. But, that's a big pain, and managing the reconquest armies makes it harder to make different nations comparable. You'd need similar cost armies at some standard level - probably with similar resource costs as otherwise "same gold" is a very different power level.

I think the money quote is:

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Good test and it's pretty much what I've observed through playing. You're trading gold for gems by taking luck. Gold can get you a lot of things in Dominions 3, but not gems. It actually seems like a pretty balanced tradeoff.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

Another thing I don't like about the original test: growth and production give gold, as well. So you should substract 3 levels of prod and 2 of growth from income (Jotunheim has one level of prod).
That would be, if I remember correctly, 5*2= 10%. You should substract 10%.
----------
I made a quick dirty test, and after 17 turns:

Luck/Growth dominion7 arcoscephale got 130 gems total
Luck/Magic Marverni 178
Luck/Productivity Agartha got 166.

Strangely enough, Luck/Growth Arcoscephale got the most magic items (4), including Horror Helmet and Phoenix Rod.

Agartha got the most +defence events, needs further testing.
I was a little puzzled when I found province defence naturally goes up in all provinces.

Re: Luck test, v 1.00
 

1) You've said that already. I've told that the scales weren't the best possible for testing.

2) When you start with multiple provinces, those provinces start with little PD. It doesn't go up after the game creation without paying for it.