How to use archers?
 

I'm pretty new to the game and I have trouble using archers in a way that doesn't involve a LOAD of friendly fire casualties.

The background is that in my current game I'm playing Kailasa, and my archers are systematically causing a lot more losses on my melee sacreds (whatever their name was, forgot) than the enemy EVER could. I mean, with W9F4N4 (nature for regeneration, to NOT get afflictions from friendly fire...) bless makes them pretty much unstoppable juggernauts against ANYTHING .... except friendly fire, which kills between a few and a dozen of them per combat. Do I really need to start using my archers in 'fire and retreat' mode and have a few extra commanders to pick the archers up from the provinces just because the idiots otherwise can't stop shooting at my own?:/ I like the fire support, but I'm almost at the point of not using archers at all, because I really do think they hurt me more than they help me.

Whether it's a game balance issue or not, it's simply stupid that MY archers are more dangerous to me than the enemy... and oh yes, I've lost commanders to friendly fire.

Re: How to use archers?
 

Prefr to use heavy armored units and/or units with shield as your main center force.

Put them in front , and if you think you have the upper hand in ranged attacks (archers + mages), make their order as "hold and attack".

While they wait, the ennemy will close and take loses from your archers, and your heavy armored unit will draw ennemy archer fire to them. With almost any nation, even in early era, you can have a unit type resistant to arrows enought to not take large loses from it.

I use mainly heavy infantry, with shields if available, but lightly armored units with the correct blessing or heavy shields can do the trick

You should also use "fire archers" orders , meaning your archers will usually fire behing ennemy frontlines (with a chance for a lucky hit on a ennemy mage or other leader)


Exemple strategy :

- mages at the center
- archers squads, left and right of the mages (if you look from your army point of view) (usually one or both set to 'fire archers')
- heavy infantry in the front (hold and attack closest)
- if available, cavalry or other fast unit on the flanks (hold and attack rearmost)

For exemple, With MA man, the heavy armor of warden, plus their blessing and protection cas by your mages make them resistant to all except the most heavy fire, and this is without a shield !

some sacred units have good overal combat stats, but lacks armor or shield and die in droves from arrows.

With such units, an air blessing and/or astral 9 (twist fate to prevent the lucky arrow) can be very effective.

With medium armors, earth 9 blessing is usually enought to resist most ranged attacks (+4 armor), the only problem being the first round of combat

Only problem with a sacred strategy : the first round of combat when you attack let the ennemy fire a full volley while your troops are blessed yet.

You can use then a squad in front of your main troops with heavy armor (or a sacrifice squad, such as militia/flagellant hordes you get from events and don't know what to do with) to draw arrow fire (even a lone unit can sometimes do the trick)

Re: How to use archers?
 

I've tried most of what you propose. It usually works, but for Kailasa it doesn't seem to be working at all. The problem is my sacreds are so fast that they get into the enemy in 1-2 turns, they shred anything they reach to pieces extremely quickly. I often use cheap troops in front of them to draw the initial volley or two from the enemy. But nothing is protecting my beloved sacreds from my own archers once they charge into the enemy.

I probably should just go with two types of armies. Once with bandar warriors with heavy armour and my archers. The other army type just those melee sacred guys, and some expendable arrow-soakers in the front... it's not like my sacred melees NEED the archers - I'd just like to give them the fire support, but it seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

Just annoying. Very simple improvements to archer AI would solve this issue totally. Is it a balance issue or why is it that you can't really use archers and quick lightly armored shock troops together without heavy friendly fire losses?

On a related issue - it seems to be pretty trivial to come up with bless tactics that can utterly devastate pretty much whatever the computer can come up with. Has anyone else noticed this? Haven't played any MP though... I'd guess huge squadrons of good archer units with 'fire and retreat' would be devastating on my current Kailasa setup - computer just doesn't seem to be able to adapt.

Ah, and more questions! Derailing my own thread rocks... Does computer AI difficulty make them only smarter, or do they get extra bonuses like more resources/money/whatever?

Re: How to use archers?
 

Put the archers off to the sides. They get a clearer shot that way than trying to shoot ovre the head of your troops. (on the placement window that means putting the at the top or bottom of the screen)

Having them target enemy archers can help with really low-precision archers.

If you have many archers, and you are counting on their effect, then have your foot troops "hold and attack". Especially if the enemy is heavily armored.

Re: How to use archers?
 

I always do hold and attack if I use archers, it hardly helps in this particular case.

Maybe I'm just trying to fit archers into an army that has no place for them. The problem is the sacred Kailasa EA melees are so damn brittle against projectiles. They're virtually indestructible in melee but they sure know how to die to arrows - friendly or hostile:)

Re: How to use archers?
 

An Air bless will give your sacreds air shield which will reduce how often they get hit, maybe you could try to switch that Nature with Air (access to Air 4 with Kailasa isn't bad either, your pretender could cast Wind Guide and Flame Arrows too so it'd be pretty sweet to bring your pretender along)

Next, take a look at what kind of archers you're using. Markata archers have like no range, so they'll shoot at the closest thing they can. Atavi archers are better, they can reach the rear of the enemy army if you don't set up too far back and they don't set up too far back. Bandar archers have the furthest range, but are pretty expensive.

Take a look at your orders. What are the archers set to? Depending on what that is might be causing your casualties, if they're set to fire closest they'll shoot at whatever it is, even if there's only 1 guy and 100 of your guys. Setting them on just "Fire" with no specific orders tends to make them a little smarter, most of the time they'll switch targets, if there's something in their range, when your forces are in the way.

Also, the Bandar Warriors can soak up arrows pretty well. What you could do is put your sacreds on the flanks set to attack rear and the Bandar Warriors to attack nearest in the center so they'll take most of the arrow fire. Hold and attack on all of them though.

Re: How to use archers?
 

I can't really use Bandar Warriors in my game tho. Reason being I have something like -50% resources from scales;) Tailored my pretender for the sacred melees which are easy on resources. As archers I use the atavi ones, 'default' precision and ok range. I usually use 'fire at archers', sometimes it works and I get no casualties, but sometimes enemies don't have archers and them I'm hosed:)

Anyways, that flanking thing might work pretty well, got to try it. Especially if I need huge armies. Bandars _mixed_ with sacreds in the center (mixed to get the extra damage punch in from sacreds, and less arrow-targets since 2/3 of targets are still bandars), and the main bulk of sacreds on the flanks attacking rear - got to try that... using them like cavalry might work after all:)

Re: How to use archers?
 

Stop using archers with your non/less protected sacred works too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Playing Pythium in Dom2 i had some nice Water/Fire/Astral 9 Bless Strategy and the only real problem for my Battle Vestals was archers.

Re: How to use archers?
 

Yeah I agree - don't use archers is the solution.

Your Yavanas will tear up the enemy in melee - your main goal should be getting them into melee as soon as you can. Archers aren't going to add much except trouble.


If you still want archers then use them with a different army group: Bandars and archers in one group; Yavanas and Guhyakas in the other.

Re: How to use archers?
 

A technique I use (but which would be silly in this case) is to have the melee people guard commanders along the front. This is most effective when the arches are the main force and the troops in front are just blockers/guards, meant to keep chargers away from the archers while they do their thing. The advantages are

1. More clear rounds of fire. Often you gain a round or 2 this way.
2. The resulting combat is closer to your archers/mages (and probably further from the enemies), increasing hit chance

Disadvantages are
1. The melee troops are less effective (no charge, e.g)
2. It can go wrong, ending up with meleers and arches in one big mess.

However, as others have mentioned, if you have strong meleers with weak protection, you job should be to avoid missile fire! Staff of storms is a great solution; 1 or 2 small flankcharging hold-and-attack rear are also nice. Avoid having the meelee group too large to maximize the number of your troops in the front, and charge immediately from the very front. Place the priest right in the groups and have them bless first thing, unless you have access to lv 3 priests.

Re: How to use archers?
 

If they are so fast, start the archers in front of them. If your confident in the speed of these guys, make them start farther back to delay them getting to the enemy. Then the fight will end up closer to you, with less error in archer precision.

Re: How to use archers?
 

Sometimes I setup one decoy unit which sits dead center close to the front... and the unit usually has high protection with ugly afflictions.

Then on either bottom center or top center you place your archers. Near them setup some slow melee troops with hold and attack closest. On the other side yet closer to the front setup some strong units with attack rear.

Usually enemy units will move and kill the one solo unit... then move towards the units with attack rear. This gives your archers a less likely chance of hitting your own troops.

A second group of archers may be needed to fire at archers if the province you're attacking also has archers. Different strategies should be used against human opponents.

Re: How to use archers?
 

Yeah, that works pretty well - and is a good way to get rid of the worst afflicted units. Err, I mean, give them an opportunity to die a heroic death in battle...