Borg assimilation racial technology
 

I like the Borg race very much from its concept, so I had the idea of a special racial technology for them, which would give the following components:
- transwarp drive: up to 5 extra-movement points (as solar sails). Borg ships are very fast and it is usually not possible to run away from them.
- assimilation drone component: converts the crew of an enemy ship to Borg (ability of the allegience subverter). Very low range of 1 or 2 but reload of 5-10, so one Borg ship could convert more then one enemy ship in a battle.
- multi-phase regenerating shields: more shield points than standard phased shield, e.g. up to 500 shield points for the highest level, and regeneration ability of e.g. 25 points per turn for the highest level. Borg ships are very hard to damage!
- repair drone component: a repair component, but much smaller than the standard one (e.g. 50kT). Damaged Borg ship repair quickly and it is also important to have the possibility to repair the converted but damaged enemy ships.

As far as I can see everything should be possible with the available abilities, but I might be wrong and its certainly quite a lot of work.

Now my question: Do you think such a racial trait would be too strong and unbalance the game?

[This message has been edited by Q (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

awsome ideas. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Hi,

Not having the full game yet (it might get here Saturday), I can't comment on balance, but I, for one, don't care.

I love the borg and would love to be able to play and face them, even if they are nigh-unstoppable (as well they should be).

I've downloaded every Borg mod I've seen and can't wait to try them.

Personally, I intend to join the modders as I have a desire to make the true Berserker race for the game, though perhaps Berserkers would be better as monsters.


Assimilate this,
V'ger gone

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Okay I will try to make this modification, but be aware that any new racial trait will prevent the use of the old empire file!

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Why? the emp files don't refer to the new racial tech, so it wouldn't be a prob. S_J had emp file probs because pre-existing races had to change to include the "normal" race tech. Yours wouldn't, which is good; you wouldn't want other races using the borg race tech!

On another note, be sure to make the borg components expensive; after all, the borg never used very many ships! Or better yet, drastically increase maint. costs for the borg as an effective ship cap.

edit=typos

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbluck:
Why? the emp files don't refer to the new racial tech, so it wouldn't be a prob. S_J had emp file probs because pre-existing races had to change to include the "normal" race tech. Yours wouldn't, which is good; you wouldn't want other races using the borg race tech!

On another note, be sure to make the borg components expensive; after all, the borg never used very many ships! Or better yet, drastically increase maint. costs for the borg as an effective ship cap.

edit=typos

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 26 May 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err actually it does matter dumbluck, I think it's a built in safety feature of some kind. Even if the existing empires don't use that trait the number of unique racial areas don't match what was originally in the file. Try copying one of the racial tech traits then give value 1 a different number like 99, it won't let you load any of the old empires. It's probably supposed to protect the emp files from being corrupted or holding bad values somehow is my guess. But you can get around it. Try moving most the races directories into a back up directory and generate a random game with a large number of random opponents, save those new races over the old emp files, quit, move those races into the backup directory and add a new set back to the race directory and repeat until you have new emp files for all the races you want to use. I'm not sure if you need to edit the settings file to take care of the quickstart values or not though, since I haven't tried this yet, but it should work.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I like the Borg race very much from its concept, so I had the idea of a special racial technology for them, which would give the following components:
- transwarp drive: up to 5 extra-movement points (as solar sails). Borg ships are very fast and it is usually not possible to run away from them.
- assimilation drone component: converts the crew of an enemy ship to Borg (ability of the allegience subverter). Very low range of 1 or 2 but reload of 5-10, so one Borg ship could convert more then one enemy ship in a battle.
- multi-phase regenerating shields: more shield points than standard phased shield, e.g. up to 500 shield points for the highest level, and regeneration ability of e.g. 25 points per turn for the highest level. Borg ships are very hard to damage!
- repair drone component: a repair component, but much smaller than the standard one (e.g. 50kT). Damaged Borg ship repair quickly and it is also important to have the possibility to repair the converted but damaged enemy ships.
As far as I can see everything should be possible with the available abilities, but I might be wrong and its certainly quite a lot of work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would have to suggest that you give the borg organic-style regenerating armor. Allegiance subverters are IMO too powerful, instead, think about using boarding parties that regenerate via the organic armor ability http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Be sure to get the AI to build a baseship every now and then to really strike fear in the enemy!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now my question: Do you think such a racial trait would be too strong and unbalance the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>IMO, Borg should be unbalanced http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif In Activision's ST:armada, they screwed the borg and made a cube equal to the Fed's battleships (enterprise-E size- can't remember the class). The very first thing I modded was increasing the defiant class weapons from 2 to 4 cannons (duh) and the second thing was the Borg cube. I scaled up the Cube 150%, and gave it a 0% chance of being destroyed once its shields were down. Increasing it's systems hitpoints by 100 times and its repair rate helped. I also added beam emitters on all six faces of the cube, instead of just one. To give a human player a chance of survival, the cost and build time were doubled.

So now, a war cube can take down a starbase on its own. To actually win against a single cube, you need at least 20 ships, and you're sure to lose a bunch. Tactical cubes are much smaller, but are sill tough enough to take down a starbase. 8 defiants can force the retreat of the tactical cube, but can't destroy it on their own. See Screenshots here

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

If my memory serves me correctly (and it rarely does this) I remember no evidence of the borg ever having researched anything on their own.
They merely assimilate other cultures and gain technology that way.
In this way perhaps it would be better to start them off with -100% to research ability but still give them all of the functions you outlined below.

Comments people?

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If my memory serves me correctly (and it rarely does this) I remember no evidence of the borg ever having researched anything on their own.
They merely assimilate other cultures and gain technology that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, at the very least, they had to develop enough technology on their own to assimilate their first culture. Unless it was a barbarians vs. Rome situation, which doesn't fit what little I remember of their origin story.

------------------
Cap'n Q


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, at the very least, they had to develop enough technology on their own to assimilate their first culture. Unless it was a barbarians vs. Rome situation, which doesn't fit what little I remember of their origin story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would think that it would be easiest to start them with no research ability, but already have basic assimilation techs.

If you copy most of the components and "borgify" them (improve their performance slightly, make them regenerate and only available to borg), then you would have a really neat system.

The borg would capture a shield generator I, and they would analyse to get a Borgified Shield Generator I, which fits in with the rest of their tech.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

I stand corrected. That'll teach me for flapping my gums about things I know nothing about! (Which, of coarse, makes me one of that most dangerous breed of men: those that _think_ they know more than they actually _do_!) (wait a minute. having said that takes me back OUT of that Category! Damn. Well, at least I was dangerous for an instant or two... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif )

edit=typos


[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Has anyone checked out my Borg mod at all? - interested in feedback you may have.

I set up a Borg Technology group to overcome the racial trait problems, which incorporates many of ther features being discussed.
eg Regenerative structure, self repair systems, a Borg boarding component (went for this over the Allegience Subverter to reflect the effect of shields), a transwarp conduit generator (emergency propulsion 10 movement points!), neural interface, etc.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Your mod kicks arsse. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Suicide_junkie wrote: "I would have to suggest that you give the borg organic-style regenerating armor. Allegiance subverters are IMO too powerful, instead, think about using boarding parties that regenerate via the organic armor ability."

The boarding parties can made ineffective or even harmful, if the enemy ships use self destructing devices. There is no weapon and no ability until now for a weapon, that could destroy selectively the self destructing device. You are right the allegiance subverter is powerful but so are the Borg!
Organic armor is very good unless the enemy has crystalline technology with the shard cannon. Therefore I would prefer strong shields, which is also in line with the Borg in Star Trek. And it would make the shield ignoring weapons like null space projector more important.



[This message has been edited by Q (edited 27 May 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

I posted a first modification with the new assimilation racial technology in the Mod section. For the description of the new components see my first message of this topic.
Please report the feedback here in this topic.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The boarding parties can made ineffective or even harmful, if the enemy ships use self destructing devices. There is no weapon and no ability until now for a weapon, that could destroy selectively the self destructing device. You are right the allegiance subverter is powerful but so are the Borg!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is true, but borg (or anybody else) have never been able to beam through a ship's shields.
I believe that the AI will avoid making a capture attempt if the other vessel has a self-destruct, so you don't have to worry about the Cubes being blown up during a capture attempt.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Organic armor is very good unless the enemy has crystalline technology with the shard cannon. Therefore I would prefer strong shields, which is also in line with the Borg in Star Trek. And it would make the shield ignoring weapons like null space projector more important.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't mean organic armor as in armor, but I'm suggesting you use that ability on every internal component on the borg ship. So even null-space damage will be healed over time http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif You'd have to bLast through the shields with normal weapons so you can get high-damage hits to internals, and overload the regeneration ability.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 27 May 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

I tried to make new life support, crew quarters, bridge and master computer components which were regenerating but the AI would not include them in its designs for some reason - kept sticking with the normal components.

All other (non-essential) components (weapons, armour etc) seem to function ok though.....

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

I assume you placed these new components after the normal components, right? No double-blank-line errors? Are they actually available to be built if you design the ship yourself?

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Yep, to all questions http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
When I went into the AI's turn, I could create ships with the components. The AI wouldnt though....

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Try making the borg components of the same family as the normal ones, so that the AI sees them as an upgrade.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Did that.

What I actually did was to copy the original components and paste them to the bottom of the file. I then added the word Borg in their name and added regeneration as an additional ability. When I stuck them on my ships, they seemed to operate ok. I think that the subroutine for mandatory components is only programmed to recognise the names of the standard components - not sure about engines though as I didnt test them.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

You'll need to place the upgrade component directly after the standard component.
You should then notice that the standard component dosen't show up when "only show latest" is activated.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Posted the second Version of the new assimilation Borgs in the mod section. See the the readme file for the changes.
Of course my judgement is completely biased, but I am very happy with their performance (and the performance of the mod itself) so far.
Any feedback is welcome.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Adding a URL tag to the mod would be useful for the lazy people around here http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
Use:
[ url = my_web_address ] Click Me [/url]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Adding a URL tag to the mod would be useful for the lazy people around here http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
Use:
[ url = my_web_address ] Click Me [/url]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhm, I am sorry, but this is not very familiar to me, and you might land anywhere but on my mod, if I try! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Just go to your mod, copy the "location bar" text from your browser and paste it in to the url tag. You can always post, test, and edit until you get it right http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

You could even leave a link to your mod in your Sig.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Now I'm just waiting for the Dev-Null mod with the TDM races and Q's uber-scary borg mod http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Matryx

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Someone mentioned adding armor regeneration ability to other componetns besides armor, doesn't this only work on armor? So you would have to make all components armor for this to work, if you only made a few comps armor then they would be hit first. Not a bad idea though.

Transwarp conduits: Warp point openers that can both open and close warps and cost no movement.

Boarding: Just create a component similar to the alligience subverted with shorter range.

Don't foget the neural combat interface. (gives ships in combat bonus of highest experience level.)

-just some ideas.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Boarding: Just create a component similar to the alligience subverted with shorter range.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aaaaah! How can people keep suggesting the alliegiance subverter as a borg boarding party???
You can't beam through shields! You can't just ignore SDDs and the valiant defenders!
I mean, sure the drones will wipe the floor with the defenders, but give them a chance!
Just use some Borgified Shield Depleters, and use an "organic regen" ability on the "Assimilation Drones" boarding parties! You can capture just as many ships as with the subverters, but the mechanics are much better.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

ZeroAdunn,
Check out my Borg variant! Most of the things you mentioned are in it....
(There is a Borg Technology Tree).

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

I hope you don't mind a little advertisement for my assimilating Borg modification:
I play a test game in a medium sized galaxy, low starting tech level, no computer bonus but high computer player difficulty. 8 races with Borg, Gron, Krill, Sergetti, Toron, Romulan, Norak, Ukra-Tal. It is stardate 2416.5 and Borg are first with a score of 1.2M, second are Romulan with 400K! Even before triggering the mega evil empire, the Borg were at war with just everyone. Their fleets have ships of all races included, that the Borg assimilated.

[This message has been edited by Q (edited 02 June 2001).]

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Just downloaded you mod, haven't used it yet, but downloaded it, hope you don't mind if I make some suggestions:

1. I think it would better simulate the borg adaptive shielding to change the borg shielding to be 1) non-phased (Something about them having phased shields just bugs me) 2)produce say one hundred sheilds and regenerate 100 shields per tern at highest level (to represent adaptive shielding, would make a dreadnought tough as "nails" for lack of a more profane word)

2. Create a custom beam, something like "Borg Antiproton beam, make it armor and then give it the regenerative armor ability, do the same for a tractor beam and pulse weapon if you like.

3. Last but not least, make pie!!! Man I love pie.

------------------
Captain, I found your pants.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Thank you ZeroAdunn for your comment.
1.) Ordinary shields would be soon useless when the enemy uses polaron beams, and many races do that. On the other hand 100 point of regeneration is awful much, too much IMO.
2.) I put the main defense of the Borg in the shields, so I don't think additional special armor will be necassary, and the combination of weapon and armor capabilities in the same component could produce very odd effects. Did you ever try this yourself?
3.) ??? (I may miss something, english is not my mother language).

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

If you're not using armor, then set all the borg components as regenerating armor.

It won't change things much, since there is no armor on the ship, and you get your regeneration.

With regenerating boarding parties, the borg would capture multiple ships each combat, without needing cheap *** ignore everything weapons.
Even though the shields will go down, you still have the regenerating hull, and a design with lots of regenerators.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

My point about the regenerating shields was that after each hit you had to remodulate your weapons, so every other hit wouldn't do any damage. The lower sheild number would allow a good sized fleet to get the shields down every turn and do damage. (if 100 is a bit much maybe only 75 or 50)

My point about making weapons armor was so that they could regenerate every turn in combat. Would make combat really tough, even with weapons killing weapons.

Pie: A bakery product with fuit filling and a light flacky crust.. MMMMMM, pie.

------------------
Captain, I found your pants.

Re: Borg assimilation racial technology
 

Thank's again for your comments. Suicide_junkie, boarding parties are at present just not attractive/effective IMO. First you usually get only a severely damaged ship. Second if the enemy has the self destructing device, they are completely useless or will even lead to the loss of your attacking ships.
In fact even in my modification the biggest problem the Borg get in the later game are the huge number of foreign old ships, which slow down the fleets, and if they contain components, that the Borg don't know, cannot be repaired. It's really fun to see these fleets, which have ships of all other races, but it is actually not too good for the strategic performance of the Borg. I would be good if they scrapped the slowest/oldest ships from time to time.
Another thing I realized in the late game, which has most probably nothing to do with the modification, is the poor performance of the AI to multiple enemies. The Borg are at war with everybody and would have enough ships to lead several successful attacks on different locations, but they can't decide, where to go! So they got more defensive in the late game. I don't know if this can be changed or how, but I think it is a general problem of the AI.
But overall I am very satisfied with the performance of the assimilating Borg. They are very strong, but it is still possible to beat them.