We Need Serpent Cult
 

So obviously, Pythium: Serpent Cult should be the late era Pythium. Parts of that are already in the game even. The Serpent Priest, Serpent Acolyte, Serpent Cataphracts, Serpent Lords, and Sacred Hydras are all already in place. But that's not a complete force. So obviously it needs some more things. Here are my thoughts:

• First of all, the Sacred Swamp already makes 5 gems/turn. That's pushing it for a late era nation, so they clearly don't need any more.
• The Serpent Priests have WNNHH with 1.1 Randoms of WNDS, that's pretty weak even for the late age, and extremely weak for a magic focused tribe - so they should have a capitol only Serpent High Priest who is capitol only - an Arch Theurge if you will.
• All available sacred troops are capitol only, which for a bless-focused nation is crap. They need some sacred troops that are available anywhere - though clearly they don't have to be hydras, because that would be insane.
• The normal Pythium units are generally pretty low tech compared to the late age, and need to be redone.

So where does that put us? It puts us needing approximately 8-12 build-anywhere units, 3 build-anywhere commanders, a capitol-only commander, and of course: an extra magic site that produces that capitol-only magician commander.

The easiest part of that is the production of extra fantastic units. The build-anywhere sacred troop, for example, can be a human serpent-dancer with a snake staff (picture attached for what it's worth). The hard part is that Serpent Cult Pythium should correspond pretty closely to the Thematic Armies of the Eastern Roman Empire. That means an update of Pythium's normal units to use more chain mail and more cavalry. That's convenient, because the Serpent Cult has raised lizards as sacred in the eyes of the god - so using more cavalry seems pretty understandable.

Obvious units:

Pronoiars: It's like a knight, so it rides around on a lizard. The Pronoiars are paid in land and thus become a minor lord when they join the army. Clearly, they can be raised anywhere, and while the lizard that is left over when they die is sacred, they aren't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Serpentis Sagitarii: It's a horse-archer, but it rides around on a serpent. These guys ride the old-school Serpents that the Sauromatians rode because they are light troops and don't have barding.

Alae Serpentis: It's like an Alae Legionaire but to mimic the Alae Cavalry of Byzantium while staying in theme it rides a serpent. Also it comes with Full Chain Mail instead of a Lorica Segmentata.

Archers: That's their actual name, this being Latin inspired. The Archers of Serpent Cult Pythium have chain armor and use composite bows.

Heavy Infantry: I can't find what these guys were actually called, but the legionaires of Byzantium were outfitted with Chain Mail, Tower Shields, Helmets, and either swords or spears.

That's like 7 units that are build-anywhere. But to feel like a full faction, it should have at least 8. Any other ideas of additional Byzantine-inspired field troops?

-Frank

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

I've had this thought before, and it does make a lot of thematic sense -- my only possible niggle is that all that juicy hydra poison will be completely ineffective against the Ashen Empire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

You could always reverse it and do a (magic-nerfed) classic Pythium in the late age, and the Serpent Cult in the middle age. You could explain this by changing the backstory: instead of Pythium being the Ermorian province that was once Sauromatia, make it Sauromatia that had been changed by waves of Ermorian refugees. In the late age, the Ermorian/Pythian culture would now be dominant, with a correspondingly reduced emphasis on hydras.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

I don't know about basic heavy infantry, but the Byzantines had elite heavy infantry known as the Varangian Guard that were drawn from other countries in northern Europe. Mainly Germans, Scandinavians, and maybe some English. They were like the Emperor's guard, so maybe a Dominions tie-in would be to make them better at fort defense a la Ulm Guardians.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

Awesome. Searching for the Varangian Guard found the names of some more infantry units:

Kontarion: These guys get the heaviest armor and are deployed in the first line. They are equipped with Long Spears and tower shields.

Skutatoi: These guys go behind the Kontarion. They are equipped with Broadswords and Tower Shields.

Peltastoi: Essentially unarmored and equipped with Javelins, these guys can use the Peltast picture because it's exactly the same concept. And I'm sure it will be just as underwhelming in Pythium hands.

Toxotai: Armored Archers, who have Composite Bows, Hatchets, and Chain Mail.

Psiloi: Just like the Toxotai, but with just a simple padded shirt rather than chain armor.

Varangian Guard: Ulmish barbarians armed with axes. They are outsiders and above Pythium politics, so they are loyal to whomever happens to be in charge of the Empire. They are armored in the style of the Kontarion, but wield large axes.

OK, those six, plus the Alae Serpentis, the Serpentis Sagitarius, the Pronoiar, and the Serpent Dancer make for a full army of recruitables - spiced up nicely with the Sacred Hydra Hatchling, Hydra, and Serpent Cataphract available only in the Capitol. That's 13 units available in the capitol.

For the commanders, we've got:

Serpent Acolyte
Serpent Priest
Serpent Lord
High Serpent Priest (all self explanatory)

Akolouthos: Literally means an Acolyte, this is Varangian Guard inducted into the Serpent Cult and Sacred. He leads a lot of troops.

Tribunus: A mounted Comander with a big command rating. Naturally, he rides a Serpent.

Comitus: A minor comander, he wears the same kind of heavy armor that the Kontarion do, and he ahs a command of 40.

Assassin: You didn't think that Pythium had less intrigue now that it's run by a shadowy Serpent Cult, did you?

-Frank

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

Great work with those unit ideas. I remember the Varangian Guard tearing the hell out of all comers in Medieval: Total War.

Also, I would recommend working iconoclasts in there somewhere as priests. Since they were a stand-out feature of Byzantine history, it would be awesome to seem them in Pythium. Perhaps give them an inquisitor bonus (because they go around whitewashing the images of other gods)?

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

I disagree that WNN{SNDW} is weak magic for a late period nation - it's better than what over half of the different positions get; it's better than what Ulm gets, and the sacred serpent cataphract (not to mention the Hydra) is highly competitive with the strongest sacred units of the late era.

I've always assumed that the Emerald Guard - who are bad ***, and bodyguards to the Emperor - were inspired by the Varangian Guard and the like. I believe the Emerald Guard have the best profile of any "normal human" in the game.

Finally, the sacred swamp is in-game, and I strongly suspect that given there's a nation # reserved in late era, unless you anticipate late-era oceania...

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

On that note, have the devs mentioned anywhere if they plan on releasing a LA Pythium? I know we're waiting on the new Gath at least, right?

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

Late era Ulm does have D2B2 in the vampire counts, plus an S2B1 spy with +30 stealth, an S1 stealth +20 spy, an S1?(sorc) that reduces bad events, and an E1 inquisitor. That combination's quite a bit better than WN2?(SNDW), which has very few useful spells.

I'm pretty sure that that's correct.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

OT, but I just saw the "Black Emerald" Hero, and well, how cool is that!

Nice on all the unit descriptions, btw. Using the Greek adds a nice feel to it.

I would like to see a national battlefied spell that causes national units to be poison resistant. Then hydras wouldn't be worthless except in cases where there is an army of only them.

I second Iconoclasts as enemy dominion lowering preachers. Totally badass.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

You have to *summon* the vampires. Off of your god.

Having spying and magic on the same unit is not synergistic. If you want to give late era pythium powerful spies and asassins - well, I agree, they should have those.

I'll agree that late period pythium needs Summon Couatl and Summon Sirrush.

Nothing useful?

WW/NNN/S opens up a top of the line collection of thug equipment - boots of speed, swords of swiftness, decent armor, rings of regeneration and lucky charms? It's painful to not have air (no displacement, no weightless shields, no defense against lightning) but hardly a dealbreaker.

If you worship an Earth deity you start to seriously consider clam hordeing.

Water-boosting is easy enough that with Constr 6 you can make Unfrozen, which diversifies your magic a lot.

When your main army is made up of sacred hydras, healing light becomes nuts. You can build serpent mages everywhere - and one in four can spam that spell. Once you've got people pinned down with hydras, you start casting quickness on the hydras, you start casting fear spells on people who are already frightened of the hydras, it's very respectable combat magic.

So you can give LE pythium a bigger mage if you want - but what they really need are good national spells.

In additiona to couatl (NS) and sirrush (SN), they could have -

DNN - Snakes are ritually slain, and their spirits are contacted and offered the opportunity to adopt human form in exchange for service. They are cold-blooded undead sacred to the serpent cult, armed with poison bows. 3 archers per casting for 10 death gems.

WNN - Northern serpents. Summons serpents in combat, can be cast underwater. The northern serpents are not poisonous per se, but they are immune to poison and radiate intense cold; their bites always bleed profusely. These serpents are ethereal and sacred to the cult of pythium. Costs 50 fat, you get 1 snake per casting.

And I could go on but that's what they need - a whole lot of frickin' snakes.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

On that note, how about an even mightier hydra? NatSum: Chaos Hydra. Con 9, blood 8/astral 8 (or if not random, see below: Con 9, blood 7+fire5/water5/air5/earth5/nature7/death7/astral8(or ideally, holy 3 for the chorus hydra if holy spells can be swung that way, modding-wise). Pythium's greatest sorceror-kings have experimented with magically breeding sacred hydras with captive elementals, undead, virtues, demons, horrors, and beasts of the void. Most of the experiments have failed miserably, fatally, even explosively, but a few have been great-if unstable-successes, creating new hydra breeds with fell powers over life, death, and the elements. Chaos Hydra: a sacred beast which, instead of spreading poison, spreads fire (Pyro Hydra: hydra + salamander, explodes if slain), cold (Cyro Hydra: if damaged a lot, diminishes into egg with hp 30, prot 15, chill 30, immobile), lightning (Nymbus Hydra: breathes 9 lightning bolts per round, 6 points shock damage +1 armor-negating each, doesn't spread anything, when slain, explodes), disease (Death Hydra: undead hydra, pretty simple, lifedrain as per vampire, no second form, no regeneration), insanity (star-hydras are the results of breeding hydras with horrors and void monsters. They have 12 heads which observers/victims always recognise as their own relatives, surrounding a central mouth which seems to open into the very Void itself. Bites from the 12 heads cause horror-marks, and a bite from the central mouth causes insanity. If slain, the star-hydra shapechanges into an etherial egg (hp 30, prot 15, etherial, mindblastx3, insane). Egg attacks friend and foe alike and must be slain in order to slay star-hydra. Star-hydra is insane and wanders as per Eater-of-the-Dead.), or holy power (Chorus Hydra: smiting undead en-masse, providing holy combination spells can be implemented at some point, hydra would have awe and do 9 smites instead of physical attacks, slaying the hydra would cause it to transform into an insane ashen angel, who would attack friend and foe until slain), Vine Hydra (nature hydra, stats as per normal hydra, with normal poison cloud, except bite causes entanglement instead of poison, and hydra is affected by mossbody and regenerates twice as fast, if damaged a lot, shapechanges into insane Darkvines, Darkvines then attacks friend and foe, must be slain in order to slay vine hydra) or the mighty Rock Hydra-larger than it's fellows (size 6), tramples, doesn't spread anything, bite is still poison unlike other chaos hydras (injects victims with liquid mercury), is blind with great prot, diminishes to egg if slain, egg (hp 30, prot 30, harmless) must be destroyed to destroy Rock Hydra. If random, depending on which of several random chaos hydra types you got, the spell could be something like Ritual of Five Gates, except instead of getting 5 demons, you get 1 of a bunch of different types of hydra. I'm not sure, modding-wise, if randomized summons can be implemented, but you could always have different spells for each type. Randomized would be better though, and it can be done, since upper-level demons are somewhat random.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

You forgot the Vorpal Uber-hydra that can change the .map file to erase enemy provinces.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

I laughed for like five minutes after reading that. Thanks Zepath!

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

no the Vorpal Uber-Hydra is the serpent cult's pretender, and it eats enemy provinces 9 at a time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

a little idea for serpent cult, could you add a lizardman unit or two? perhaps as a sacred, or at least as an auxiliary.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

upstreamedge, that is a good thought. It may be in keeping with the lore since Pythium was part of the Ermorian empire that used lizardman auxiliaries.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

What if the Varangian Guard, already mercenaries hired from outside the empire, were Ctisian heavy infantry?

During the late period, the Ctisian capitol has moved entirely back to the desert lands, leaving the Swamp Guard protecting nothing but the imperial fringes. I could easily see them breaking off and hiring out as mercenaries.

Them or Ulmites really.

-Frank

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

EA Ermor had Lizard Auxiliares, MA Ermor has Zirru the Grand Thaumaturg (hero, C'tissian) as the last of them in Ermor... They could be reinstated, but it's not a new idea by any means. It would fit the Marshmaster theme; Swamp Guards, a Marshmaster hero, Nature/Water paths and perhaps a rare 5-path random (Nature and Water, of course, Death and Astral from C'tis, Fire from Theurgs).

Marignonese troops (Great Swords and improved armor?) might work. Ulm would be fine, of course. Atlanteans would work but are already divided between three nations in LA (R'lyeh, Atlantis, Mictlan).

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

The Verangian Guard are already in game! They just changed the name to "Emerald Guard."

As far as giving the Emerald Guardsman a badass Ulimish profile, let's compare base stats (before equipment):

Unit,HP,Mor,MR,Enc,Str,Att,Def,Pre
Emerald Guard,13,14,10,3,12,13,12,10
(Ulm) Guardian,14,14,9,3,12,12,10,10
C'Swamp Guard,13,10,12,4,11,11,11,10
So the Emerald Guard is an elite ulmsman already. I really don't see any reason to adjust this unit - trading them for C'tis guards would make them more useful in tandem with the hydras, but at that rate you'd be a "human" nation in a very limited sense.

Now, if you wanted to just make the Emerald Guard sacred, and immune to poison (from all their snake handling), and equip them with poison swords, and give them an overland move of 2, that'd be pretty nuts.

Re: We Need Serpent Cult
 

Are you going to come back to this one Zepath?